Why I Loathe Swingers

[Pinkie]

In case you don't know, the term "swingers" refers to a group of (say) a dozen or more people who meet regularly and have sex despite the fact that they are (usually) married.

New people are actively recruited and no effort whatsoever is made to do background checks, etc.

I am not referring to polyamorists (one woman, more than one man) or polygamists (one man, more than one woman), who after a courtship, add a third party to their bedroom.

Swinging is indiscriminate sex at its lowest, a la Plato's Retreat. These days, swinging seems to be almost exclusively a heterosexual activity IME. (By "experience" I mean noticing WTF is happening to others; I do NOT mean I have ever been or ever will be a swinger.)

A large part of the reason I disapprove is that this behavior is that it is becoming FAR more commonplace and most "swingers" consider themselves "kinky" or "into BDSM", which has all sorts of misbegotten legal and social ramifications. More about this later.

My two main complaints are these: when one promiscuous adult screws another, there's almost no way to prevent the transmission of STIs. Condoms break, many men refuse to use one, and some diseases, like HPA and Herpes Simplex II, can be spread even if condom use if 100% successful.

Now, if these people could be corralled somehow on an island and just chose a slow suicide of STIs, no biggie. But they look like you and I.

How am I to know on a first date whether french kissing a man creates a risk I'll contract a deadly strain of HPA?

Swingers are pissing all over my Happy Place, and I hate it. This preposterous behavior is in vogue today like it's 1973 all over again. At around that time, I was engaged/married and I watched as at least one of the four people who "chose" to have indiscriminate sex did so because if they had refused, they reasonably feared their partner would have left them. (Not surprising, most such marriages almost always broke up anyway.)

What could possibly be more coersive then threatening any adult with the loss of their children, home, etc.? To me informed, voluntary consent is the cornerstone of all ethical sexual adult conduct.

Most swingers clubs do not admit this is what they are, but none I'm aware of will allow an unaccompanied male in. Women yes, men no. They masquerade as "BDSM clubs", but make no effort to assure even a modicum of patron safety.

There are no Dungeon Masters (bouncers, but far more importantly, a man or woman who knows what safe "kinky" sex looks like and will call an immediate halt to anything unsafe.)

And this is the LEAST of it. No effort is made to keep out people with drugs or alcohol in their systems, nor is any made to assure none will be consumed on their premises. I know where most NE Ohio swinger clubs are -- or I could -- and I could report this to the cops.

But so what? The cops already know better'n I, and no laws are being broken, or at least reportedly so.

I loathe swingers and I can't believe anyone with half a brain risks their lives and the lives of those they love in this way. I hate the sneaky way they recruit. I hate that they co-opted the nomeclature of BDSM but none of the ethics.

So I'm calling them out. Ask whatever you like; man am I pissed off that so many my age are acting the fool and ****ing up MY life in the process. I say we expose them for the losers they actually are.

I started this thread realizing DP allows children to join, and I hope anyone who responds will bear that in mind.

Said more frankly, there are plenty of places that allege to "teach" kinky sex techniques on the 'net, and it'd be a terrific loss if anyone tried to make DP into another, so please, no slot A goes into Part B if it can avoided, k?

 

[the_recruit]

i don't see why you're singling out swingers. anybody, married or single, who engages in sex with a variety of partners on a regular basis is going to be at a higher risk of contracting and carrying std's.

so what? if they wanna live that kind of high risk lifestyle, more power to them as far as i'm concerned. what makes it any of your business?

you claim to be bothered by this higher incidence of std's among swingers because it might mean any new partners you come across could potentially infected. Correct me if i'm wrong, but basically swingers only **** other swingers right? That limits the std spread to the married swinging couples. so, as long as you don't go dipping your hooha into the swingers pool by ****ing a married guy it's not going to affect you.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

I'm kinda with the_recruit. Honestly, I see this sort of careless, coercive behavior all the time in typical monogamous relationships/hook-ups/whatever else that involves sex.

People who are poorly versed on sexual safety, and not very considerate of sexual ethics, are the norm. This is in no way limited to swinging, and the manner in which it manifests in some swinging crowds is not at all unusual.

This is pretty much the litmus test for me when it comes to sex. There are 3 ways to get thrown out of my bed with no possibility of redemption (exempting things that will result in me calling the police and/or physically injuring you):
1. Whining about or refusing to use a condom.
2. Being unwilling to get tested for STD's if you haven't been lately.
3. Doing anything other than stopping immediately when I say stop.

I have good taste, so fortunately I don't have to throw men out often. But the majority of people would probably fail my litmus test, based on what I know of the average person's sex life.

 

[Slartibartfast]

The main reason I dislike it is because, in my mind, love and sex are inseparably intermingled and I can't imagine this lifestyle in any comfortable way.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

The main reason I dislike it is because, in my mind, love and sex are inseparably intermingled and I can't imagine this lifestyle in any comfortable way.

Sex and emotions are inseparable. But there are a lot more emotions that can come with good and healthy sex than just love.

To be completely honest, I think limiting it in that way cuts out a lot of the potential meaning of sex.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

I got involved with a swinger once. She was good people, but I realized the relationship wasn't going anywhere when I met her swinger friends and realized how much I'd enjoy killing some of them. I can't ever imagine voluntarily sleeping with someone who had treated their other partners in that fashion-- and if someone could, then it makes me seriously wonder how they felt they could get away with treating me.

I'm sorry, I know this offends a lot of people, but one thing I've learned in my experience with "alternative" sexual lifestyles is that the belief that "the rules of conventional society don't apply to my sex life" usually goes hand-in-hand with an appalling disregard for the health and well-being of one's partners. I'm not really that sold on monogamy, but if monogamy is the price I have to pay for not sleeping with scum... I'll pay it.

 

[Pinkie]

As to STI's, a few fun facts. I wasn't kidding abut catching a fatal case of HPV from a french kiss. Breastfeeding a baby can do it too. Public lice -- like most lice -- is a bitchkitty to get rid of.

I am not "singling out swingers" for condemnation because "they deserve it the most". I singled them out because they're polluting MY pond, and basically to start a convo I thought might be interesting.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

As to STI's, a few fun facts. I wasn't kidding abut catching a fatal case of HPV from a french kiss. Breastfeeding a baby can do it too. Public lice -- like most lice -- is a bitchkitty to get rid of.

I am not "singling out swingers" for condemnation because "they deserve it the most". I singled them out because they're polluting MY pond, and basically to start a convo I thought might be interesting.

Oh, I'm aware. I was lucky enough to be sufficiently young to get vaccinating and have it be effective (they won't vaccinate you if you're over 26 - chances are you already have several strains of HPV by that age). Immediately afterwards, a dangerous strain of HPV hit two of my friends (via the same partner). They were like 17. It was scary as hell.

 

[Disputatious71]

Ask whatever you like; man am I pissed off that so many my age are acting the fool and ****ing up MY life in the process.

For clarification what age group are you describing ?

 

[Pinkie]

Viktry said in part:

I'm sorry, I know this offends a lot of people, but one thing I've learned in my experience with "alternative" sexual lifestyles is that the belief that "the rules of conventional society don't apply to my sex life" usually goes hand-in-hand with an appalling disregard for the health and well-being of one's partners. I'm not really that sold on monogamy, but if monogamy is the price I have to pay for not sleeping with scum... I'll pay it.

Some people I love have been in "alternative lifestyles" for decades with the same partner. But yes, a willingness to explore -- or to be led -- can and usually does introduce you to some serious creeps.

Anyone at all interested in this sort of sexual behavior needs to be taught how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Pinkie]

For clarification what age group are you describing ?

I'm 58; anyone over 50, I suppose. Anyone whose young adulthood was over before AIDS hit.

 

[Pinkie]

Oh, I'm aware. I was lucky enough to be sufficiently young to get vaccinating and have it be effective (they won't vaccinate you if you're over 26 - chances are you already have several strains of HPV by that age). Immediately afterwards, a dangerous strain of HPV hit two of my friends (via the same partner). They were like 17. It was scary as hell.

I'm so glad they're okay now. First time I heard of this was the story of a woman dying from 4th stage throat cancer less than 4 months after her sexual encounter with someone infected/a carrier.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

I'm so glad they're okay now. First time I heard of this was the story of a woman dying from 4th stage throat cancer less than 4 months after her sexual encounter with someone infected/a carrier.

Unfortunately, we won't know if they're truly ok for another several years to come. One of them did wind up having anl LEEP because she developed cervical dysplasia. Sometimes it takes 10 or 20 years for it to finally develop into cancer. But at least they were aware of it early.

Yeah, a lot of people don't know that HPV causes LOTS of different kinds of cancers.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Anyone at all interested in this sort of sexual behavior needs to be taught how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I think there's some dangerous psychology at work there-- you familiar with the five geek social fallacies? Because they view themselves as social outcasts, a lot of people in sexual subcultures tolerate behavior that they shouldn't because they don't want to be like the "closed-minded" mainstream society.

 

[samsmart]

In case you don't know, the term "swingers" refers to a group of (say) a dozen or more people who meet regularly and have sex despite the fact that they are (usually) married.

New people are actively recruited and no effort whatsoever is made to do background checks, etc.

I am not referring to polyamorists (one woman, more than one man) or polygamists (one man, more than one woman), who after a courtship, add a third party to their bedroom.

Swinging is indiscriminate sex at its lowest, a la Plato's Retreat. These days, swinging seems to be almost exclusively a heterosexual activity IME. (By "experience" I mean noticing WTF is happening to others; I do NOT mean I have ever been or ever will be a swinger.)

A large part of the reason I disapprove is that this behavior is that it is becoming FAR more commonplace and most "swingers" consider themselves "kinky" or "into BDSM", which has all sorts of misbegotten legal and social ramifications. More about this later.

My two main complaints are these: when one promiscuous adult screws another, there's almost no way to prevent the transmission of STIs. Condoms break, many men refuse to use one, and some diseases, like HPA and Herpes Simplex II, can be spread even if condom use if 100% successful.

Now, if these people could be corralled somehow on an island and just chose a slow suicide of STIs, no biggie. But they look like you and I.

How am I to know on a first date whether french kissing a man creates a risk I'll contract a deadly strain of HPA?

Swingers are pissing all over my Happy Place, and I hate it. This preposterous behavior is in vogue today like it's 1973 all over again. At around that time, I was engaged/married and I watched as at least one of the four people who "chose" to have indiscriminate sex did so because if they had refused, they reasonably feared their partner would have left them. (Not surprising, most such marriages almost always broke up anyway.)

What could possibly be more coersive then threatening any adult with the loss of their children, home, etc.? To me informed, voluntary consent is the cornerstone of all ethical sexual adult conduct.

Most swingers clubs do not admit this is what they are, but none I'm aware of will allow an unaccompanied male in. Women yes, men no. They masquerade as "BDSM clubs", but make no effort to assure even a modicum of patron safety.

There are no Dungeon Masters (bouncers, but far more importantly, a man or woman who knows what safe "kinky" sex looks like and will call an immediate halt to anything unsafe.)

And this is the LEAST of it. No effort is made to keep out people with drugs or alcohol in their systems, nor is any made to assure none will be consumed on their premises. I know where most NE Ohio swinger clubs are -- or I could -- and I could report this to the cops.

But so what? The cops already know better'n I, and no laws are being broken, or at least reportedly so.

I loathe swingers and I can't believe anyone with half a brain risks their lives and the lives of those they love in this way. I hate the sneaky way they recruit. I hate that they co-opted the nomeclature of BDSM but none of the ethics.

So I'm calling them out. Ask whatever you like; man am I pissed off that so many my age are acting the fool and ****ing up MY life in the process. I say we expose them for the losers they actually are.

I started this thread realizing DP allows children to join, and I hope anyone who responds will bear that in mind.

Said more frankly, there are plenty of places that allege to "teach" kinky sex techniques on the 'net, and it'd be a terrific loss if anyone tried to make DP into another, so please, no slot A goes into Part B if it can avoided, k?

People are free to live whatever lifestyle they choose.

They must also face the consequences of living such a lifestyle.

If I had a problem with swingers and the risks they take, there's a very easy thing I could do: Not associate with them.

If I had a problem with BDSM clubs that I thought were unsafe, there's a very easy thing I could do: Not patronize them.

Life's too short to always be telling people what they can or can't do. I'd rather focus on my own needs, wants, and interests.

 

[samsmart]

Viktry said in part:



Some people I love have been in "alternative lifestyles" for decades with the same partner. But yes, a willingness to explore -- or to be led -- can and usually does introduce you to some serious creeps.

Anyone at all interested in this sort of sexual behavior needs to be taught how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

There are creeps who only do mainstream normal sex too.

Maybe we should teach people who to shy away from all psychos - men and women - no matter what kind of sexuality they choose to practice.

 

[finebead]

I agree with the original poster. I understand there are different strokes for different folks, not everyone feels the same.

In my 20's, I asked myself what I wanted, and it was a good job, enough money, a good wife, kids, one nice vacation a year, not working 60 hours every week.

Between marriages I had a few casual flings. Titillating, but not fulfilling. For me, sex works best when I am in love with my partner.

In marriage, you give up some freedoms, and you get some certainties through commitment. That has worked for me, the best set of tradeoffs.

I'll be married 30 years in January, and its still good. Our 3 kids are responsible, next year all will be out of college. I've been with my company 22 years and can retire when I want (in 2 or 3 years maybe).

I did it. I feel like I've built something substantial, a solid family, by grinding it out, get up every day, go to the same office, deal with similar issues year after year, but we keep the business going. It allowed me to provide for the family. It's really just in the last year I have come to feel this way, but I am now calling victory.

Should I run off and die now? No. My time will come, when I don't have to grind it out doing what they want me to do. I can devote more time to investing. A friend and I want to start a website, later try to sell it. Get in better physical condition, brush up my golf. Experiment with cooking.

If I was a swinger, I guess I wonder, when you look back at your life, what will you have when you're 60? Will it have been worth it? I don't see how it would for me. I wonder if it will be worth it for anyone? I read of a lot of porn actresses who left the business and they regret what they did, said they stayed high to go through it, suffered from low self esteem, were controlled by others.

I won't condemn anyone, but I know it would not have been right for me. I've lived a lot of my life, and if I had it to do over again, I would not change a thing. That's a mighty good place to be.

 

[Chiefgator]

I missed the part of how swingers are messing up your life....

 

[samsmart]

I agree with the original poster. I understand there are different strokes for different folks, not everyone feels the same.

In my 20's, I asked myself what I wanted, and it was a good job, enough money, a good wife, kids, one nice vacation a year, not working 60 hours every week.

Between marriages I had a few casual flings. Titillating, but not fulfilling. For me, sex works best when I am in love with my partner.

In marriage, you give up some freedoms, and you get some certainties through commitment. That has worked for me, the best set of tradeoffs.

I'll be married 30 years in January, and its still good. Our 3 kids are responsible, next year all will be out of college. I've been with my company 22 years and can retire when I want (in 2 or 3 years maybe).

I did it. I feel like I've built something substantial, a solid family, by grinding it out, get up every day, go to the same office, deal with similar issues year after year, but we keep the business going. It allowed me to provide for the family. It's really just in the last year I have come to feel this way, but I am now calling victory.

Should I run off and die now? No. My time will come, when I don't have to grind it out doing what they want me to do. I can devote more time to investing. A friend and I want to start a website, later try to sell it. Get in better physical condition, brush up my golf. Experiment with cooking.

If I was a swinger, I guess I wonder, when you look back at your life, what will you have when you're 60? Will it have been worth it? I don't see how it would for me. I wonder if it will be worth it for anyone? I read of a lot of porn actresses who left the business and they regret what they did, said they stayed high to go through it, suffered from low self esteem, were controlled by others.

I won't condemn anyone, but I know it would not have been right for me. I've lived a lot of my life, and if I had it to do over again, I would not change a thing. That's a mighty good place to be.

1) Why can't swingers be capable of having a mutually fulfilling marriage?

2) Why can't swingers be capable of raising responsible children?

3) Why can't swingers work for a business long-term?

4) Why can't swingers graduate from college?

 

[notquiteright]

It is an interesting thread. I was a wild man after I came back from overseas, chased quite a few and didn't even consider settling down. I learned a lot about sex, D/s, and where that damn clit thing women go on and on about is located and what you are to do with it...(Helpful hint, it ain't lunch, don't gnaw on it)

Anyway, finally found a woman who could put up with me, feed me regular and well, wanted to work together as a team and take on the world. Sex is what humans do to make more and for fun. I don't think less of people for whom one breakfast is all they want, one lunch or one dinner for the rest of their life, but for me variety is the spice of life.

Marriage isn't just sex and if you fall in love because the woman puts out or the man puts in, stop and think about that for a moment.

Not everyone has the same priorities or fears, I think people who jump out of perfectly good aircraft for free are insane. Go swimming with sharks, how about running into burning buildings when sane folk run out?

Creeps are not confined to adulthood or swinger enclaves, ask any woman who has dated no matter the era or venue. My experience is there are no more or less in a swinger group, a 'stable' group soon weeds out the creeps. And yes I do mean my experience. The groups I wandered through throughout the decades were a lot like the 'vanilla' groups I sometimes associated, small talk about kids, work, vacations, new hobbies, etc...

Sex was like playing charades or cards was for the norms. Some are better at it and some can cheat and get away with it!

But the bottom line is you don't know much about anyone you date in the vanilla world, meet online or at a bar. Is he/she really single, safe, been tested, and for many folks who drink, none of that much matters if the 'chemistry' is good.

It is a crap shoot no matter when you hunt. I understand those who are more concerned than others about all that could happen. Perhaps it is better I got my exploring and experiencing in before AIDS, perhaps it is good I am in Pinkies demographic, been married for 20 some years and have lost a lot of my ahhhh wanderlust.

Though thank the deities who count, I still enjoy my layovers in major airports in the spring. I will NEVER grow tired of admiring long tanned lags and ahhh bouncy strides. :mrgreen:

 

[Thrilla]

me and the wife had a period of time when we dabbled in swinging.... but we steered clear of the swingers clubs.

while it was about sex and sex alone, we didn't want to just go out and hump something... there had to be a connection of sorts and the folks we engaged had to be of our 'standards'.. we only dealt with other married attractive couples, and we established what kind of lifestyle they led in "interviews" and casual social encounters before we went further.
there are swingers who are a bit to free and wild... and that can be very dangerous in terms of STD's and even attacking stalkers and other folks who can't quite grasp the fact that this isn't about love or having a relationship. ( don't be thinking you are gonna steal the other mans woman away from him, you are adding to their lives, not trying to change them or their relationship)

as with most things , you have to be careful and you have to set standards and stick to them.
swingers who engage in "dangerous" behavior, to me, are no better or worse than a single person getting laid after and drunken night at the club with some other person you know nothing about.

along with the physical dangers of such encounters, there are also psychological dangers as well... you have to make certain that you, and the people you engage with, are able to handle the encounter without bad **** happening... jealousy and hurt feeling can arise, and it can get kinda ugly.


but yeah, irresponsible people can do bad and dangerous things, but i don't think that's a justification for labeling all swingers as evil or some such nonsense.

 

[Andalublue]

In case you don't know, the term "swingers" refers to a group of (say) a dozen or more people who meet regularly and have sex despite the fact that they are (usually) married.

New people are actively recruited and no effort whatsoever is made to do background checks, etc.

I am not referring to polyamorists (one woman, more than one man) or polygamists (one man, more than one woman), who after a courtship, add a third party to their bedroom.

Swinging is indiscriminate sex at its lowest, a la Plato's Retreat. These days, swinging seems to be almost exclusively a heterosexual activity IME. (By "experience" I mean noticing WTF is happening to others; I do NOT mean I have ever been or ever will be a swinger.)

A large part of the reason I disapprove is that this behavior is that it is becoming FAR more commonplace and most "swingers" consider themselves "kinky" or "into BDSM", which has all sorts of misbegotten legal and social ramifications. More about this later.

My two main complaints are these: when one promiscuous adult screws another, there's almost no way to prevent the transmission of STIs. Condoms break, many men refuse to use one, and some diseases, like HPA and Herpes Simplex II, can be spread even if condom use if 100% successful.

Now, if these people could be corralled somehow on an island and just chose a slow suicide of STIs, no biggie. But they look like you and I.

How am I to know on a first date whether french kissing a man creates a risk I'll contract a deadly strain of HPA?

Swingers are pissing all over my Happy Place, and I hate it. This preposterous behavior is in vogue today like it's 1973 all over again. At around that time, I was engaged/married and I watched as at least one of the four people who "chose" to have indiscriminate sex did so because if they had refused, they reasonably feared their partner would have left them. (Not surprising, most such marriages almost always broke up anyway.)

What could possibly be more coersive then threatening any adult with the loss of their children, home, etc.? To me informed, voluntary consent is the cornerstone of all ethical sexual adult conduct.

Most swingers clubs do not admit this is what they are, but none I'm aware of will allow an unaccompanied male in. Women yes, men no. They masquerade as "BDSM clubs", but make no effort to assure even a modicum of patron safety.

There are no Dungeon Masters (bouncers, but far more importantly, a man or woman who knows what safe "kinky" sex looks like and will call an immediate halt to anything unsafe.)

And this is the LEAST of it. No effort is made to keep out people with drugs or alcohol in their systems, nor is any made to assure none will be consumed on their premises. I know where most NE Ohio swinger clubs are -- or I could -- and I could report this to the cops.

But so what? The cops already know better'n I, and no laws are being broken, or at least reportedly so.

I loathe swingers and I can't believe anyone with half a brain risks their lives and the lives of those they love in this way. I hate the sneaky way they recruit. I hate that they co-opted the nomeclature of BDSM but none of the ethics.

So I'm calling them out. Ask whatever you like; man am I pissed off that so many my age are acting the fool and ****ing up MY life in the process. I say we expose them for the losers they actually are.

I started this thread realizing DP allows children to join, and I hope anyone who responds will bear that in mind.

Said more frankly, there are plenty of places that allege to "teach" kinky sex techniques on the 'net, and it'd be a terrific loss if anyone tried to make DP into another, so please, no slot A goes into Part B if it can avoided, k?

Sorry Pinkie, but you're making a lot of assumptions and generalisations about a reasonably large group of people. To my knowledge there are no standard practices conducted by all groups of swingers, so your blanket statements such as, "No effort is made to keep out people with drugs or alcohol in their systems, nor is any made to assure none will be consumed on their premises" is supposition at best.

You have a responsability for your own sexual health including knowing who you kiss and who they might have kissed in the past. If you're suspicious, then don't kiss them, or ask them about their sexual history before getting intimate. Your fears about what certain people might do in private is no reason for you to impose your morality on them. It's their business.

 

[finebead]

1) Why can't swingers be capable of having a mutually fulfilling marriage?

2) Why can't swingers be capable of raising responsible children?

3) Why can't swingers work for a business long-term?

4) Why can't swingers graduate from college?

Statistically, anything is possible. I have read some say they marriage stays together because they swing (well, it has stayed together thus far, will it till death do they part?). And I think swinging killed some marriages where the partners thought they were open minded and could handle it, to find out later they could not handle it, it killed an underpinning they thought would not die. My belief, swinging kills more marriages than it helps, although some of those marriages were build on quicksand to begin with.

Marriage has traditionally been between one man and one woman, and you were supposed to be true to that person sexually. Now, we know many cheated on that vow, we hear it is routine in Europe, but I don't think that was good for the marriage. You can define your own relationship after you are married. But swinging says you will not commit totally to the other person, you need sex partners outside the marriage, and I need it so bad, I don't care if you have sex partners outside the marriage either. There is a certain selfishness in that, sacrificing the total commitment for your personal perceived need. That lower level of commitment than the traditional commitment is where I see the risk to the long term relationship.

Many people have trouble at first understanding what it takes to succeed at marriage till death do you part. I had a failed marriage in my 20's, I learned a lot from my failure.

I am also in touch with some of my high school class, and there are 2 couple out of 55 kids that graduated, they were high school sweathearts and are still happily married some 40 years later. I'm happy for them. I just seem to see the traditional model work more often in the "till death do you part" objective, than alternative models, although sometimes I have seen alternative models that are very successful also. For me, its about the odds. And you have to be true to yourself, even if that is in an alternative model.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

The only time someone's lifestyle (whatever it is) bothers me is when they are with me and my children and they forget that I don't want the kids to hear about any of their 'things' they do. . . just like: I dont' talk about my private sex life in ear-shot of my kids. . . same thing.

 

[Pinkie]

People are free to live whatever lifestyle they choose.

They must also face the consequences of living such a lifestyle.

If I had a problem with swingers and the risks they take, there's a very easy thing I could do: Not associate with them.

If I had a problem with BDSM clubs that I thought were unsafe, there's a very easy thing I could do: Not patronize them.

Life's too short to always be telling people what they can or can't do. I'd rather focus on my own needs, wants, and interests.

I couldn't agree more, samsmart, but I did want a Dominant Man in my life and the crap of swingers cloaking themselves as such has made that damned near impossible.

Many people think that if you, e.g., pour a little hot wax on your partner (which, by the way, you should NEVER do unless you've been taught how to do this safely), you're "into BDSM". To me, this is the tail wagging the dog.

If your lover of a given evening is someone you are not married to or committed to and was chosen for you by a third party or at random, whilst the person you ARE married to etc. is doing likewise, IMO, you're not "into BDSM". You're a swinger. You're an unpaid sex worker, and the misery you spread flows like water across many, many lives -- including mine.

A touch of background: BDSM groups in the US are a vestige of WW II. There were men who returned from combat with healthy bodies and a huge appetite for adrenaline, and some such men were gay. Try to imagine the clash of needs to avoided being outted (which always led to a social death and often led to an actual one) and still get your groove on that men like these felt.

Most motorcycle gangs that were formed in the late 1940's and early 1950's were PART of a set of rituals gay men (tops and bottoms) used so they could hang out together and find lovers without being hunted down and killed.

I'm not saying hetero guys of this era did not also form motorcycle gangs, but hetero guys did not make ladies members of their clubs.

So from the late 1940's until the Stonewall Riots of the 1970's, some gay sexual behavior became ever more ritualized and much of this was aimed at arriving at shared ethical codes (which like any code of the sort, were rarely followed to the letter). This same kind of ethical code did not develop regarding sex among hetero motorcycle gang members of the same era, for a variety of reasons. Mainly because they had no need for it.

Blah, blah, blah....fast forward to the 1990's. People my age was gobsmacked by the 'net, especially the porn and even better, the opportunities for sex with strangers that they had never even imagined before. To younger people, the growth of the 'net may have set off less of a life-altering startle response, because they never knew a time when there was not at least arcade games.

Before the 'net, hetero BDSM was limited to a few major cities and (as practiced in any sort of group setting) extremely underground. You needed to know which alternative newspapers and bulletin boards carried announcements about BDSM group meetings, and even then you had to have someone explain the code to you. Nobody has reliable data, but if there were 100,000 hetero BDSM practitioners in the US before the 1990's, I'd be shocked.

So, there are people who knew about and practiced BDSM before the 'net, and did so in group setting where safety was among the rituals on offer. You odds of ever meeting one are much lower than your odds of meeting a WWII vet.....about a million times lower if you are not gay.

I am not one such....if the internet had never "been invented", I can promise you I'd have lived my whole life totally ignorant of BDSM.

But now? Every third or fourth "unmarried man" my age whom I have met/spoken with/ YIM'd with claims to have a long history of BDSM and a great deal of experience with some very dangerous BDSM practices. Claims which so far I have found to be 100% bull****.

It's kinda sorta as if I were meeting (or had met) dozens of men who claimed to be Civil War vets. One such person may have still been alive in the 1990's.....but there could not possibly be millions of them.

It is bad enough to be lied to by a man you've agreed to meet for coffee, but it is far worse to run the risk of gang rape because you naively show up at a swingers' club meeting cloaked as a BDSM meeting and were unsuccessful at saving yourself after you decided to leave.

(This has never happened to me, nor have I ever for one moment considered any group sexual experiences. I have absolutely no voyueristic or exhibitionist interests. But believe me, it happens....and far worse. Victims are almost always so horrified that their families may find out, I've NEVER come across one who reported a crime.)

The basis of all BDSM ethical codes is informed consent. That's why drugs and alcohol are forbidden, why people under 21 are not usually allowed in the few actual dungeons that exist around the country, and why Dungeon Masters are so important -- because if either party says "stop", it's got to end, immediately.

I know this is a little confusing, but lemme cut to the chase. When I first discovered BDSM on the 'net, I thought Dominant men were like my own father....ethical, reliable, loving, HONEST, with good manners and courage. That misunderstanding did not survive a week after I joined a website designed to allow "people into BDSM" to meet.

It's bad enough that some random guy is trying to cheat on his wife by lying his ass off to me. But IMO, it's so much worse that there is no avenue for finding other people who value ethical, ritualized, exciting, fun, COMMITTED sex between two people because every channel of communication we could conceivably use is overrun by swingers hoping to score no matter what lie they have to tell to do so.

Some of you reading this may have formed the impression that I hang from the chandeliers whilst I have sex ten times a day. This couldn't be further from the truth.

I don't EVER have sex with known liars, and consequently, I VERY rarely have a lover. I live "like a nun", so to speak. If people could just pluck their heads out of their asses and tell the truth about what they have done and what they want to do, this wouldn't be so freakin' hard for me.

Bottom line: I despise people who lie about their sex lives in hopes of getting something I would NEVER willingly give.