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why havent individual states implemented universial healthcare

Willoughby said:
hasn't happened over here

How do you know ? Can you attest to the brain power of your doctors
and to the intelligenge and talent of those lost to other fields?
Maybe the alternatives aren't as attractive "over there".

In this country, only a fool would endure the years of training necessary to become a physician, suffer the long term health effects of the long hours of training and lifestyle, forego years of earning while accumulating huge ammounts of debt, give up enormous numbers of hours of free time and recreation over their lifetime, give up countless hours of sleep, working LONG hours away form home and family while on call and taking care of emergencies, and endure the stress, anxiety and economic worry of our modern tort system, if the perceived economic gain did not compensate the sacrifice.

I would have to say, the field would lose countless bright individuals.
 
the doctors i know think of medicine as a calling, not as a cold hard financial choice
 
Willoughby said:
the general tax situation is of no relavence. the money for the nhs comes straight out of the national insurance so the other taxes are not important


So where does this money for the National Insurance comes from?
 
Calm2Chaos said:
What percent in taxes do you pay in the UK? I thought it was up around 46%... Is that close?


Holy **** thats high.
 
Willoughby said:
the doctors i know think of medicine as a calling, not as a cold hard financial choice

Those are the few that you know.
Do you claim speak for the majority ?
We are talking about human beings after all.
Maybe the ones you know like to wax philosophically from time to time.
 
Willoughby said:
the doctors i know think of medicine as a calling, not as a cold hard financial choice


Most doctors are driven by greed.MOst people expect something for all that time and money they spent on that education.
 
jamesrage said:
Most doctors are driven by greed.MOst people expect something for all that time and money they spent on that education.



Maybe not greed, but rather just good old fashioned american entrepreneurial spirit.

Take away their economic incentive, and most would look elsewhere for money making opportunities, that's for sure.
 
Take away their economic incentive, and most would look elsewhere for money making opportunities, that's for sure.

you say thats for sure but it just hasn't happened like that in countries where a more comprehensive health care has been put in place
 
And we still don't have an answer on the total amount your checks are taxed at percentage wise. I am not interested in paying taxes so that some dead beat can sit on his fat arse at my expense and effort. I'd rather have that money for my family.
 
And we still don't have an answer on the total amount your checks are taxed at percentage wise. I am not interested in paying taxes so that some dead beat can sit on his fat arse at my expense and effort. I'd rather have that money for my family.

i am just talking about healthcare here, you are probably right that people pay more taxes in total in britain. but on the issue of healthcare we in britain pay less of our salaries on our healthcare system than you do in the US, and yet we have a more comprehensive system....hope u know what i mean
 
Increased taxes, Europeans live stagnant lives..

Their economy isn't doing so well..

Universal healthcare would remove the priorty system, and those who deserve it more, paying more for the system, will not get the treatment, he/she deserves..

There was this tape about the canadian health care system where it was failing..

In our current health care system, if you pay, you get what you paid for. You can't say the same for socialized healthcare...

Illegals are now messing up our healthcare, how did I forget.:shock:
 
Willoughby said:
you say thats for sure but it just hasn't happened like that in countries where a more comprehensive health care has been put in place

This is america. There are plenty of money making alternatives.
And to be honest, you cannot say that it hasn't happened for sure.
You have no way of measuring the number of bright talented individuals who pick other trades, and the impact it has on your healthcare. You just get stuck with what the system produces. You have no alternative.


As far as your interpretation of a "calling" is concerned, it sounds to me as if you are quite happy benefitting from the sacrifices of others.
How many years of your life are you willing to give up, and for what price?
Be honest now.
 
How many years of your life are you willing to give up, and for what price?
Be honest now.

if i had any inclination towards medicine i think it is about eight years in this country....but i am at the moment in a university where the only oversubscribed subject is medicine..interesting that!
 
Willoughby said:
if i had any inclination towards medicine i think it is about eight years in this country....but i am at the moment in a university where the only oversubscribed subject is medicine..interesting that!


It's about eight years of post high school education, then about 3 to 7 years of residency training, depending on your specialty. Most will accumulate large debt completing the process, while simultaneously foregoing earning and savings until well into their thirties. From an investment standpoint, this puts them well behind the eight-ball if they expect to send their kids to college, pay off their houses and school debt, and put together a retirement savings by an reasonable age.

Now mind you, the 12-15 years after highschool are typically long and miserable, with very little social life, with often wrecked marriages, coupled with known negative health effects from the long hours and stress.
Then once you begin practice, the hours are significantly longer than the typical forty hours of the 9 to 5 world. There are countless hours on call where the individual is tied to his pager, unable to enjoy life like the rest of the world. Add to this countless hours in the hospital taking care of emergencies and sick patients.

Now would you be willing to shoulder this load if you had the "calling" ?
Would you be willing to give up so much of your life, away from your family and friends, sitting in a dimly lit call room in some hospital, studying, unable to sleep because your pager beeps the second your head hits the pillow?
Would you gladly give so much of yourself, so that people who decided not to work as hard as you have, can tell you that you make too much, the same people who spent their youth going home at five, and hanging out in bars with their buddies and relaxing on weekends, while you suffered ?
The notion of a "calling", the spirit of noble servitude with finite reward, sounds very appealing to those on the receiving end of the equation.
I have a suspicion that you don't mind sharing the benefit of health care, from the sacrificing doctors that provide it, yet begrudge their ability to
profit economically.

What about you ? Do you expect to profit according to the level of hard work and dedication you apply towards your career ? I would suspect that you might be willing to accept even larger compensation, and without guilt. So why do you so easily accept the hard work and dedication of your doctors as a "calling", not worthy of adequate reimbursement. I see you graciously accept the benefits of their hard work, and view it as entitlement.
What are they entitled to ?
 
come on please answer my points. You list all of these bad points about becoming a doctor and yet in our system we have medical schools over subscribed. how can this be explained?
 
Willoughby said:
come on please answer my points. You list all of these bad points about becoming a doctor and yet in our system we have medical schools over subscribed. how can this be explained?


What is the average salary of a doctor,how much does medical school cost and how many years in school and intership does one have to do in order to be a doctor where you are at?
 
What is the average salary of a doctor,how much does medical school cost and how many years in school and intership does one have to do in order to be a doctor where you are at?

not sure at all, whats the point you are making?
 
Willoughby said:
not sure at all, whats the point you are making?

The point is that money does not grow trees and that time is money.Education cost,the time we spend on achievig certian goals such as education intership and various other things is not free.

What doctors in Britian make?
What is the total cost of medical school and how many years does one have to go through medical school?
What additional education and cost does one have to have have for certian medical specializations?
How much time does one have to spend on internship to be a doctor?

From what I understand here in the states it is very exspensive in time and money for one to go to medical school to be a doctor.Which is why doctors make alot of money and medical care is not cheap.
 
Willoughby said:
come on please answer my points. You list all of these bad points about becoming a doctor and yet in our system we have medical schools over subscribed. how can this be explained?

What exactly is over subscribed ? Is this pre-med majors?
Is this actual med school applications?
It is a well known fact that poor economies generate high application rates.
How many seats per school ? How many schools ?
How many medical grads per year ? How many grads studying disciplines such as engineering or the sciences or banking etc ?
How can you measure the aptitude or potential of individuals pursuing other fields as opposed to medicine ? How can you measure the effect on your health care as a result ? You cannot. You must be satisfied with what the system produces. You have no choice.

It is a simple fact of life that the vast majority of people will pursue interests
that they feel will give them the best return for their effort.
You simply cannot expect the smartest people to sacrifice of themselves, so that you can gain all of the benefit.

Of course with your vast human experience at "university", I'm sure you are now the expert on human behavior. I'm sure that you interact daily with vast numbers of noble humans, just dying to obtain mediocre compensation for a lifetime of sacrifice.
 
eight years of post high school education

then about 3 to 7 years of residency training

accumulate large debt

foregoing earning and savings until well into their thirties

puts them well behind the eight-ball if they expect to send their kids to college, pay off their houses and school debt, and put together a retirement savings by an reasonable age

very little social life

often wrecked marriages

coupled with known negative health effects from the long hours and stress

hours are significantly longer than the typical forty hours of the 9 to 5 world

countless hours on call

unable to enjoy life like the rest of the world

countless hours in the hospital taking care of emergencies and sick patients

give up so much of your life, away from your family and friends, sitting in a dimly lit call room in some hospital, studying, unable to sleep because your pager beeps the second your head hits the pillow


How does the above sacrifices attract the best and brightest people to the medical profession? Willingness to endure the hardships does not equate to being the smartest and certainly not the most qualified to be trusted with my health. Why not go fours years, get a BA, then a couple more for a masters and make quite a nice living and still have time to enjoy the fruits of your labor and education. To be a doctor, it has to be a love and dedication, satisfaction is the reward, not the bucks.

The health care system in the United States is starting to show it's weaknesses and unless it is restructured, only the wealthiest and the poorest will have it. The employer based system just can't compete and as more and more drop coverage, employees are forced to seek other, more expensive coverage or even worse, none at all.
 
BWG said:
To be a doctor, it has to be a love and dedication, satisfaction is the reward, not the bucks.

Very generous of you, dictating the rewards of someone else's labor. How about we change your salary to "satisfaction". Really, what's the difference between you and them, that they should sacrifice for you, and you should reap the reward ? I smell selfishness and envy.


Next time you are sick, I suggest that you go heal yourself.
That should be a totally "satisfying" experience for you.
 
jamesrage said:
Holy **** thats high.

Thats just the richest though and its not even that high. It just seams that way from an american perpective as america taxes alot less then the rest of the world. UK taxes are lower than most of europe and ild consider raiseing it to put more money into education research and healthcare.
 
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taxedout said:
Very generous of you, dictating the rewards of someone else's labor.

LOL..I don't know who stuck the stick up your A**, but it sure short-circuited your brain waves.

No where did I say that a physician shouldn't be properly compensated. I did say that I don't believe money is primary factor, for most, in choosing their profession. Some people actually do things for reasons other than physical rewards. Think about this, your physician just may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, he or she may just want to make a lot of money, now count backwards 3..2..:rofl

I guess while sitting in a dimly lit call room in some hospital, studying, unable to sleep, unable to enjoy life like the rest of the world, with very little social life, a wrecked marriage, with large debt and no earnings and savings until well into their thirties, they can always pull out their portfolio and look at all those numbers and proclaim 'wow, I'm rich', too bad I can't enjoy my fortune.

taxedout said:
How about we change your salary to "satisfaction".

More than satisfied (with a smile on my face) :smile:

taxedout said:
Really, what's the difference between you and them, that they should sacrifice for you, and you should reap the reward ?

They are very well compensated, when I avail myself of their services.

taxedout said:
I smell selfishness and envy.

You haven't a clue. :cool:

taxedout said:
Next time you are sick, I suggest that you go heal yourself.

I have rich doctors, that I pay to do that..LOL

taxedout said:
That should be a totally "satisfying" experience for you.

Very satisfied with the choices I made and am enjoying the compensations that I earned.
 
BWG

My post concerned the socialization of health care and the fact that many would leave the field if the compensations were reduced. Then you chimed in with "satisfaction is the reward, not the bucks".

Exactly what are you trying to say?
If you thought they deserve adequate compensation, why didn't you say so ?

Instead you chose to go on a self inflating bashing of their intelligence,
as if you could do a better job . Somehow I doubt it.

Did you not get enough attention as a child, that you would feel the need
to try and boast about your money, or your self perceived intellectual
superiority, to a stranger on a political forum ?
Pathetic.

What's next, a smug description of your physical attributes ?:doh
 
taxedout

You said that many in the medical field would leave and my thoughts are:

I agree with your premise that many MDs would leave the profession. My point is, I don't think that would create a shortage nor a decline in quality of doctors. I believe that the majority of physicians do not enter the medical field for the monetary reward, but rather for the satisfaction and knowledge that they helped another human being recover from an illness or other medical problem. I don't believe all the negatives you listed are worth the pay a doctor receives, I think it has to come from within, the money is a very nice incidental benefit. Willoughby has stated that UK medical schools turn away potential doctors. Medical schools here have to turn away applicants. Would you prefer that the surgeon about to perform your heart transplant be thinking about the trip to Fiji that you just paid for, or one that truly cares about getting you well enough to walk out of the hospital next week. As far as I'm concerned, the doctor that's in it for the money doesn't have his mind where it should be, and it should be on me. How do we know that the person who just missed being accepted to med school and became an electrical engineer instead, wouldn't have been a better pediatrician than your child's?


I'm not bashing a medical student's intelligence and no, I don't think I could do a better job. Early on I worked in a Veterinarian's office and decided that wasn't going to be my career path. I'm questioning their choice to be a doctor just for the money. There are other, easier ways to make money rather than subject themselves to the sacrifices that a doctor must make and to maybe jeopardize someones health just because the job pays well.


I think I got enough attention when I was a child. If I didn't, I didn't know enough to know the difference. :lol:

I don't see where I was boasting about any money. You don't know if I make $15,000 or $515,000. Some are happy with very little. Some are never happy, no matter how much they have.

taxedout asks: What's next, a smug description of your physical attributes?

(Chuckling to self) I'm not quite sure how to answer that. Let's just say that I'm not as young as I was yesterday, but experienced enough to recognize that fact. :cool:
 
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