Why did Jesus need to die for our sins?

[MrWonka]

Didn't we deserve to pay for our own sins?
If we did, why would let us off easy be the right thing to do?
If we didn't, why didn't God already know that?

I mean if someone actually deserves to spend eternity in hell, why would letting them off be the right thing to do? If someone deserves to spend life in prison for murder do you think we should let them off the hook just because they claim they believe in Jesus?

If god's punishments for human beings were excessive, why didn't God already know that? Why did Jesus have to suffer for him to see that? What happened to all the people who died and went to hell before Jesus came to earth? Are they still suffering in hell?
What about the people who died after Jesus, but before learning about the guy? It's not really their fault they didn't worship the guy, isn't it?

 

[Phys251]

Didn't we deserve to pay for our own sins?
If we did, why would let us off easy be the right thing to do?
If we didn't, why didn't God already know that?

I mean if someone actually deserves to spend eternity in hell, why would letting them off be the right thing to do? If someone deserves to spend life in prison for murder do you think we should let them off the hook just because they claim they believe in Jesus?

If god's punishments for human beings were excessive, why didn't God already know that? Why did Jesus have to suffer for him to see that? What happened to all the people who died and went to hell before Jesus came to earth? Are they still suffering in hell?
What about the people who died after Jesus, but before learning about the guy? It's not really their fault they didn't worship the guy, isn't it?

True forgiveness would have meant letting sins go, not crucifying God's own son for them.

 

[Logician Man]

True forgiveness would have meant letting sins go, not crucifying God's own son for them.

The bible writers weren't really into "True forgiveness." --- Exhibit A:

Psalm 137:9
Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

 

[AmNat]

Didn't we deserve to pay for our own sins?

Yes

If we did, why would let us off easy be the right thing to do?

Because God is merciful, and is within his rights to forgive offenses against Himself.

If we didn't, why didn't God already know that?

N/A

I mean if someone actually deserves to spend eternity in hell, why would letting them off be the right thing to do? If someone deserves to spend life in prison for murder do you think we should let them off the hook just because they claim they believe in Jesus?

God's justice is concerned with the state of a person's soul, not with past actions per se. Thus when a person commits, e.g. the sin of murder, he chooses (at least implicitly) to reject God. If he dies at that point, he will continue rejecting God forever, and will therefore deserve to be punished forever. God's mercy consists in turning the murderer's heart back to Himself, and thereby removing the grounds for him to be eternally punished. This action by God on the human soul is called grace, and without it it would not be possible for man to turn back toward God.

Governments, unlike God, cannot see the heart. And in any case crimes have earthly effects which persist even if their perpetrator repents, so the two cases are not analogous.

If god's punishments for human beings were excessive, why didn't God already know that? Why did Jesus have to suffer for him to see that?

N/A

What happened to all the people who died and went to hell before Jesus came to earth? Are they still suffering in hell?

Those who died in God's friendship went to a place of natural happiness, commonly called the limbo of the fathers or the bosom of Abraham. Jesus brought them to Heaven when He rose from the dead. This place can correctly be referred to as "hell", and indeed the Old Testament uses that term to refer indiscriminately to the dwelling place of the dead, but it was unlike the hell of damnation.

Those who were damned before Jesus came will continue being damned forever.

What about the people who died after Jesus, but before learning about the guy?

If they followed God to the best of their knowledge, He will make their salvation possible. No adult of sound mind can be altogether ignorant of God's existence, even if their understanding of Him is clouded by errors, which simple people might not be responsible for holding.

It's not really their fault they didn't worship the guy, isn't it?

No, though there are many other things for which they can be at fault. God established the Church as the principal vehicle for bringing His grace to the world. He can act outside it, but being outside the Church (even through no fault of one's own) is a much more perilous position than being in it.

 

[Gordy327]

Didn't we deserve to pay for our own sins?
If we did, why would let us off easy be the right thing to do?
If we didn't, why didn't God already know that?

I mean if someone actually deserves to spend eternity in hell, why would letting them off be the right thing to do? If someone deserves to spend life in prison for murder do you think we should let them off the hook just because they claim they believe in Jesus?

If god's punishments for human beings were excessive, why didn't God already know that? Why did Jesus have to suffer for him to see that? What happened to all the people who died and went to hell before Jesus came to earth? Are they still suffering in hell?
What about the people who died after Jesus, but before learning about the guy? It's not really their fault they didn't worship the guy, isn't it?

The whole Jesus crucifixion and sin concept is illogical to begin with. God requires a blood sacrifice to absolve sin, even though he could simply forgive or erase sin with a thought? God also knew (assuming he is omniscient as often defined) that man would sin even before he created them, but did it and allowed it all the same, and them becomes angry and blames us when we do exactly what he knew we would do? That makes no sense.

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." --- Gene Roddenberry

 

[Logician Man]

The whole Jesus crucifixion and sin concept is illogical to begin with. God requires a blood sacrifice to absolve sin, even though he could simply forgive or erase sin with a thought? God also knew (assuming he is omniscient as often defined) that man would sin even before he created them, but did it and allowed it all the same, and them becomes angry and blames us when we do exactly what he knew we would do? That makes no sense.

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." --- Gene Roddenberry

An omniscient God/Father would also have known before He ever created the universe/earth/mankind/sin , there would come a day His Son would be mocked, demeaned, beaten, brutally lashed/flogged, had a crown of sharp thorns crammed upon his skull, and the pain endured during the dying process while being crucified. Yet this omniscient God willfully sat by, and chose to allow His own Son to endure all of these things, when so many other less horrific options were available to choose from to achieve the same goal of "forgiveness."

 

[Arlette]

Yes

Because God is merciful, and is within his rights to forgive offenses against Himself.

N/A

God's justice is concerned with the state of a person's soul, not with past actions per se. Thus when a person commits, e.g. the sin of murder, he chooses (at least implicitly) to reject God. If he dies at that point, he will continue rejecting God forever, and will therefore deserve to be punished forever. God's mercy consists in turning the murderer's heart back to Himself, and thereby removing the grounds for him to be eternally punished. This action by God on the human soul is called grace, and without it it would not be possible for man to turn back toward God.

Governments, unlike God, cannot see the heart. And in any case crimes have earthly effects which persist even if their perpetrator repents, so the two cases are not analogous.

N/A

Those who died in God's friendship went to a place of natural happiness, commonly called the limbo of the fathers or the bosom of Abraham. Jesus brought them to Heaven when He rose from the dead. This place can correctly be referred to as "hell", and indeed the Old Testament uses that term to refer indiscriminately to the dwelling place of the dead, but it was unlike the hell of damnation.

Those who were damned before Jesus came will continue being damned forever.

If they followed God to the best of their knowledge, He will make their salvation possible. No adult of sound mind can be altogether ignorant of God's existence, even if their understanding of Him is clouded by errors, which simple people might not be responsible for holding.

No, though there are many other things for which they can be at fault. God established the Church as the principal vehicle for bringing His grace to the world. He can act outside it, but being outside the Church (even through no fault of one's own) is a much more perilous position than being in it.

All that doesn't explain why God needed humanity to have a middleman/Jesus to gain access to his mercy.

 

[AmNat]

All that doesn't explain why God needed humanity to have a middleman/Jesus to gain access to his mercy.

Man lost God's grace through the fault of our primogenitor. God could've extended His grace by fiat, but it was more fitting for it to be earned for us by one of our own kind.

 

[MamboDervish]

Why did Jesus need to die for our sins?​

He didn't. The bible is not the word of god - it is the word of man.
The bible is an assemblage of ancient texts written by men, about men, and for men.

The creator of the universe is not misogynist. The creators of the bible were.
The creator of the universe is not racist. The authors of the bible were.
The creator of the universe is not vengeful. The creators of the bible were.
The creator of the universe is not genocidal. The creators of the bible were.
The creator of earth and the heavens is not petty, punitive and capricious. The authors of the bible were.
The creator of the universe is not jealous. The creators of the bible were.
The creator of the universe is not ignorant about their own creation. The authors of the bible certainly were.
.... and so on and so on. God did not make man in his own image - the authors of the bible made god in their image, including many of their flaws and foibles.

The author of the universe is not the author of that book.

 

[yankintx]

The bible writers weren't really into "True forgiveness." --- Exhibit A:

Psalm 137:9
Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

And we thought the Quran was promoting violence.

It's got nothing on some of the horror stories from the Bible.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

"Hope I die before I get old"

 

[Arlette]

Man lost God's grace through the fault of our primogenitor. God could've extended His grace by fiat, but it was more fitting for it to be earned for us by one of our own kind.

That makes no sense

 

[The Stars Tremble]

That makes no sense

No, it's quite "fitting".

Think of that crop top which was two sizes too small for you, but you bought it anyway. That kind of fitting.

 

[joluoto]

What about the people who died after Jesus, but before learning about the guy? It's not really their fault they didn't worship the guy, isn't it?

During the Crusades the Catholic church argued that killing non- Christians actually saved their souls, because it transfered Jesus forgiveness to them somehow. It also released the Catholic person who killed them from all his sins, which was very convenient. Then again the Church has some WILD ideas during the crusades.

 

[TheGoverness]

That makes no sense

That's the Bible for you.

 

[Gordy327]

Man lost God's grace through the fault of our primogenitor. God could've extended His grace by fiat, but it was more fitting for it to be earned for us by one of our own kind.

It's more like god's own fault for enabling the circumstances leading to our sin, knowing full well in advance what would happen, but doing nothing about it. The buck stops with god.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Didn't we deserve to pay for our own sins?
If we did, why would let us off easy be the right thing to do?
If we didn't, why didn't God already know that?

I mean if someone actually deserves to spend eternity in hell, why would letting them off be the right thing to do? If someone deserves to spend life in prison for murder do you think we should let them off the hook just because they claim they believe in Jesus?

If god's punishments for human beings were excessive, why didn't God already know that? Why did Jesus have to suffer for him to see that? What happened to all the people who died and went to hell before Jesus came to earth? Are they still suffering in hell?
What about the people who died after Jesus, but before learning about the guy? It's not really their fault they didn't worship the guy, isn't it?

Because the Romans needed to alter / enhance a few stories to explain the obvious disconnects between the God written about much further back than the nature of the writings a little closer to them. Slice and dice, a few books in with others discarded, the intention of a Roman Emperor, and voilà... you have a way to explain a few things that quite a few of us question.

The whole concept fails basic logic on multiple levels.

The collision of collective punishment with individual responsibility, the collision of sacrifice using a story of one man treated in a manner the Romans were notorious for doing, the collision of free will with a sort of carrot and stick approach to convincing people to not be assholes, child like mentality of reward for good behavior and threat for not so good behavior, the collision of all the "omni" powers of God with the reality that these stories talk about a very fallible God capable of far more evil than we can seem to muster, that sort of thing.

What we are really talking about here is cornerstone bronze age mythologies, these concepts were both prevalent then yet are absurd by modern understandings.

 

[rjay]

Didn't we deserve to pay for our own sins?
If we did, why would let us off easy be the right thing to do?
If we didn't, why didn't God already know that?

I mean if someone actually deserves to spend eternity in hell, why would letting them off be the right thing to do? If someone deserves to spend life in prison for murder do you think we should let them off the hook just because they claim they believe in Jesus?

If god's punishments for human beings were excessive, why didn't God already know that? Why did Jesus have to suffer for him to see that? What happened to all the people who died and went to hell before Jesus came to earth? Are they still suffering in hell?
What about the people who died after Jesus, but before learning about the guy? It's not really their fault they didn't worship the guy, isn't it?

Compared to eternity our life is very short.

For example, let say life last .5 seconds compared to a billion years. If you don't exit that .5 seconds of life, in the right state, you spend the next billion years in complete pain and torment.
What could be more just than that?

 

[Mulefoot]

Didn't we deserve to pay for our own sins?
If we did, why would let us off easy be the right thing to do?
If we didn't, why didn't God already know that?

I mean if someone actually deserves to spend eternity in hell, why would letting them off be the right thing to do? If someone deserves to spend life in prison for murder do you think we should let them off the hook just because they claim they believe in Jesus?

If god's punishments for human beings were excessive, why didn't God already know that? Why did Jesus have to suffer for him to see that? What happened to all the people who died and went to hell before Jesus came to earth? Are they still suffering in hell?
What about the people who died after Jesus, but before learning about the guy? It's not really their fault they didn't worship the guy, isn't it?

Little too difficult to answer eleven questions out of one post, but as for the first paragraph,

1. Yes,
2. Why not? Billions are rescued. Is that not the "right thing"?
3. God knew the plan from the beginning, and chose to make a big deal out of his son.

 

[grip]

God, as Jesus, shared in our mortality so we could share in his immortality.

 

[NWRatCon]

Bad lawyering.

 

[devildavid]

God, as Jesus, shared in our mortality so we could share in his immortality.

Would have been easier for god to create other eternal beings if he needed company. Why did god need to create mortal beings and go through all this nonsense only to grant them immortality in the end? Makes no sense unless this god is inured to our suffering, and this kind of god is too absurd to believe in.

 

[Daisy]

Would have been easier for god to create other eternal beings if he needed company. Why did god need to create mortal beings and go through all this nonsense only to grant them immortality in the end? Makes no sense unless this god is inured to our suffering, and this kind of god is too absurd to believe in.

Would you really want someone who is wicked to have immortality...meaning they cannot die?

 

[Grand Mal]

"Hope I die before I get old"

Ya know, I was a Who fan when all around me bickered over the Beatles and the Stones. I thought Live at Leeds was the best rock album that could ever be made.
But I gotta tell ya, kicking back in an AirBnB apartment in Puerto Vallarta, reading about the snowstorms back home while the pension cheques show up like clockwork in the bank account, well, it's reasonable compensation for a bald spot and sore knees.

 

[Grand Mal]

Would have been easier for god to create other eternal beings if he needed company. Why did god need to create mortal beings and go through all this nonsense only to grant them immortality in the end? Makes no sense unless this god is inured to our suffering, and this kind of god is too absurd to believe in.

According to the Garden of Eden story, which you and I have hashed out pretty thoroughly, there are other immortal beings besides God. He addresses other immortal beings when He says, 'lest they become as one of us..' 'they' referring to Adam and Eve and immortality. The common presumption is He is speaking to angels.
Some say there's doubt that God created angels, hence Lucifer's rejection of His authority.