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Why did Jesus need to die for our sins?

MrWonka said:
Didn't we deserve to pay for our own sins?
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Oh, you expect this kind of thing to be rational! How cute.

There are so many ways this concept doesn't really hold up.

1. This claim condemns uncounted billions to eternal damnation not because of their sins, but because they died without any opportunity to be converted.

2. Christians still do pay for their sins. Jesus didn't actually let anyone out of Eternal Jail.

3. The idea that a few days of torment has any meaning or impact whatsoever to an omnipotent and omniscient deity makes no sense whatsoever.

3a. The idea that death of an avatar has any meaning or impact whatsoever to an omnipotent and omniscient deity makes no sense whatsoever.
 
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grip said:
God, as Jesus, shared in our mortality so we could share in his immortality.
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Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

In Christianity, God is held to be omnipotent and omniscient (or very close to it). If he wanted to change the rules and set up a previously non-existent afterlife, he didn't need to send an avatar to Earth to do it or to tell us about it.

Similarly, an omnipotent deity doesn't need to send an avatar to Earth in order to understand mortality. Heck, God created the very structure of mortality, and what, he couldn't grok it?

More problematically is that in most Christian denominations, Jesus wasn't mortal. We don't even need to get into the nitty gritty of the numerous variations on the Trinity, we just have to acknowledge that a fundamental belief of Christianity is that "Jesus is divine."

Now, you can have a choice here. You can claim that Jesus knew of his own divinity, in which case his suffering and death was a sham, because he knew he'd have sufficient power to just resurrect himself and erase all that pain, and that eternal divine entities can't actually be destroyed (or just permanently harmed) by a pack of puny humans. Or, you can claim that an omnipotent and omniscient deity was so ignorant and weak that he didn't know the ultimate essential fact of the human experience -- which was created by that deity in the first place. What's your preference?
 
Elora said:
Would you really want someone who is wicked to have immortality...meaning they cannot die?
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Well then god could have created all good supernatural beings. Seems easy enough for an all powerful entity.
 
devildavid said:
Well then god could have created all good supernatural beings. Seems easy enough for an all powerful entity.
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He could've but He didn't want to...He preferred His creation to be good because they loved Him/wanted to obey Him...
 
Grand Mal said:
According to the Garden of Eden story, which you and I have hashed out pretty thoroughly, there are other immortal beings besides God. He addresses other immortal beings when He says, 'lest they become as one of us..' 'they' referring to Adam and Eve and immortality. The common presumption is He is speaking to angels.
Some say there's doubt that God created angels, hence Lucifer's rejection of His authority.
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And god could have easily created all good supernatural entities if he needed the company. Why create beings just to test his authority over them? Is there a point to that?
 
Elora said:
He could've but He didn't want to...He preferred His creation to be good because they loved Him/wanted to obey Him...
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You assume that just because your imagination is limited. You have zero idea of what this made up god character wanted or not if you assume it is real. Obviously the god in the story wanted obedience and failed to get it from his creation. So he wanted disobedience. He got what he wanted.
 
devildavid said:
You assume that just because your imagination is limited. You have zero idea of what this made up god character wanted or not if you assume it is real. Obviously the god in the story wanted obedience and failed to get it from his creation. So he wanted disobedience. He got what he wanted.
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Wrong, I have the Bible and it tells me all about God's character...it also tells me that since He is our Creator, He knows us inside and out, therefore He knows what is best/good for us, so it is in our best interest to obey Him...that is love...
 
Elora said:
Wrong, I have the Bible and it tells me all about God's character...it also tells me that since He is our Creator, He knows us inside and out, therefore He knows what is best/good for us, so it is in our best interest to obey Him...that is love...
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The Bible tells the story that the human authors wanted it to tell. The story of a god who has the same human emotions and flaws as human beings. The god of the Bible is an authoritarian who punishes those who disobey and condemns all of humanity to a life of pain and suffering for disobedience.
 
MrWonka said:
Didn't we deserve to pay for our own sins?
If we did, why would let us off easy be the right thing to do?
If we didn't, why didn't God already know that?

I mean if someone actually deserves to spend eternity in hell, why would letting them off be the right thing to do? If someone deserves to spend life in prison for murder do you think we should let them off the hook just because they claim they believe in Jesus?

If god's punishments for human beings were excessive, why didn't God already know that? Why did Jesus have to suffer for him to see that? What happened to all the people who died and went to hell before Jesus came to earth? Are they still suffering in hell?
What about the people who died after Jesus, but before learning about the guy? It's not really their fault they didn't worship the guy, isn't it?
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Jesus had to die, because God is pleased by austerity.

From the beginning we went our own way, not caring what we caused the rest of creation, and now we want to follow God, so it is unpleasant.

In the beginning, when Christ went about distributing the Father's Mercy, what was that Mercy? "I give myself for thee." A rather foolish proposition, maybe, but it is God's Nature.
 
devildavid said:
The god of the Bible is an authoritarian who punishes those who disobey and condemns all of humanity to a life of pain and suffering for disobedience.
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Wrong...the God of the Bible is our loving Father, who only wants the best for us...like unruly children, when we disobey Him, we suffer the consequences of our own bad actions...only when we grow up, do we realize, Father knows best...always did, always will...sad thing is, some never grow up...
 
Elora said:
Wrong...the God of the Bible is our loving Father, who only wants the best for us...like unruly children, when we disobey Him, we suffer the consequences of our own bad actions...only when we grow up, do we realize, Father knows best...always did, always will...sad thing is, some never grow up...
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The god of the Bible literally punished Adam and Eve for disobedience by kicking them out of the Garden of Eden and condemning them to a life of pain and suffering. And he put guards at the gates of Eden to make sure they never got back in. That is god the authoritarian punisher. It’s in the book.
 
devildavid said:
The god of the Bible literally punished Adam and Eve for disobedience by kicking them out of the Garden of Eden and condemning them to a life of pain and suffering.
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And they were warned, if they disobeyed, they would die...again, they suffered the consequences for their own actions...
 
Elora said:
And they were warned, if they disobeyed, they would die...again, they suffered the consequences for their own actions...
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What are the consequences?
 
Elora said:
And they were warned, if they disobeyed, they would die...again, they suffered the consequences for their own actions...
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Did the unborn and little babies and toddlers, who the biblical God drowned in the Great Flood "suffer the consequences for their own actions"? Or were they drowned by the biblical God due to the "actions" of others? 🦗🦗🦗
 
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Elora said:
And they were warned, if they disobeyed, they would die...again, they suffered the consequences for their own actions...
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That doesn’t change the fact that god is an authoritarian punisher who only cares about being obeyed.
 
devildavid said:
That doesn’t change the fact that god is an authoritarian punisher who only cares about being obeyed.
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Who cares about being obeyed because only He knows what is best for His creation...disobedience results death...always...obedience results in life...always...
 
Elora said:
Who cares about being obeyed because only He knows what is best for His creation...disobedience results death...always...obedience results in life...always...
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He cares about it because he is an authoritarian and only want unquestioned obedience or he will punish you. He has no problem punishing all who disobey because he only cares about obedience, not human beings. He punished them and rubbed it in how they would suffer and die and never get back into Eden.
 
devildavid said:
He cares about it because he is an authoritarian and only want unquestioned obedience or he will punish you. He has no problem punishing all who disobey because he only cares about obedience, not human beings. He punished them and rubbed it in how they would suffer and die and never get back into Eden.
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Consequences of wrong actions bring death...
 
Elora said:
Wrong...He does care...He wants us to make the right choices for our own good...
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He doesn’t care about those who don’t obey his every command. Those he condemns to suffer and die.
 
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