Why creationism is a total farse

[Black Dog]

What happens when matter and antimatter meet?

Both particle and antiparticle disappear, leaving behind the energy they were made of.

 

[Black Dog]

I see where he was going now. He wants to say if energy cannot be created (as in, brought into existence from nothing) naturally, then something supernatural created it; however, it is perhaps unobservable (at this time) and it is not necessarily supernatural. Just because something exists beyond the absolute and complete explaination of current science is no reason to go asking spirits or presuming magic.


Can't figure it out exactly? No complete scientific explaination?? Can't do it in a lab?!

Must be magic!



C'mon. I fear god and praise jesus but I'll believe in magic when I see it.

No one has said anything even close to this. :roll:

 

[ecofarm]

Then, excluding the physics lesson, what is your point?

 

[Dittohead not!]

Then, excluding the physics lesson, what is your point?

Good question. This thread seems to have gone from a discussion about "creationism" to a demonstration of imperfect understandings of physics.

 

[Forte_Voce]

Nowhere in the bible does it mention that there was more than one race of human beings that existed at the same time.

Actually, yes it does. 1) Genesis describes the creation of one race, male and female, then another, Adam and Eve. 2) When Cain kills Abel, and Cain is sent away, he tells God he is frightened because of the other people who will find him. What other people? I thought there was only Adam, Eve, Cain, and the recently deceased Abel who were on earth? Oh. I guess not.

As to your other claim, the claim that humans and dinosaurs could never have existed together, who is to say that they had to live together? God may have created the dinosaurs, then destroyed them and made the humans. But on the other hand, the Bible mentions the Behemoth and the Leviathan, a great beast and an ocean monster, respectively.

Oh, and one more thing. Just to prove creationism in general. 1) The world was either created, or it has always existed. Well, if it has always existed, then the universe has existed since the beginning of infinity. Well, let's look at an example. There is an auditorium with an infinite amount of rows of chairs. How long do you have to go until you get from the 10th row from the end? You never get there. So, if the universe is infinite, then it is impossible for this moment to be happening, because the universe could never have existed long enough to get to this moment. So, there must have been a point where the universe came to be. 2) The universe was either created or happened to suddenly appear. Well, I'm sure any scientist will tell you that matter does not spontaneously appear. Therefore, the universe must have been created. 3) If the universe has been created, then it must have been either willed or unwilled. Well, according to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy in the universe is always increasing. However, their had to be a time when entropy decreased, because otherwise, the entropy and chaos in the universe would be complete, and we would not exist. Therefore, there had to be a concious act of decreasing entropy and creating order, because we still have some amount of order left in the universe. 4) Therefore, if the universe was willfully created, then there must be a being which willfully created the universe. Now the only thing to do is decide who or what this being is, and how we can know this being.

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

Blackdog, could you address this post please.

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

The world was either created, or it has always existed. if it has always existed, then the universe has existed since the beginning of infinity.

There is no such thing as "the beginning of infinity".

let's look at an example. There is an auditorium with an infinite amount of rows of chairs. How long do you have to go until you get from the 10th row from the end? You never get there. So, if the universe is infinite, then it is impossible for this moment to be happening, because the universe could never have existed long enough to get to this moment. So, there must have been a point where the universe came to be.

If you think of time as a dimension like, say, the x-axis on the coordinate plane, you don't need to start at negative infinity and start counting to get to the origin. Also, If things can't have already existed for an infinite amount of time, when did God begin, and what created him?

The universe was either created or happened to suddenly appear.

If time itself had a beginning It wouldn't make sense to talk of the universe "suddenly appearing" because there there would have been no events before time began.

I'm sure any scientist will tell you that matter does not spontaneously appear. Therefore, the universe must have been created.

Virtual particles spontaneously appear.

If the universe has been created, then it must have been either willed or unwilled. Well, according to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy in the universe is always increasing.

The total entropy in a closed system increases, there can be localized decreases in entropy.

However, their had to be a time when entropy decreased, because otherwise, the entropy and chaos in the universe would be complete, and we would not exist.

The entropy in certain places decreases all the time.

Therefore, there had to be a concious act of decreasing entropy and creating order, because we still have some amount of order left in the universe.

I thought you had already eliminated the possibility of the universe having always existed.

Therefore, if the universe was willfully created, then there must be a being which willfully created the universe.

Where did this being come from?

Now the only thing to do is decide who or what this being is, and how we can know this being.

And you know how?

 

[Misbelief]

Matter cannot be destroyed or created. It is changed when turned into energy, not destroyed.

Energy IS matter. :doh

Except matter can be broken down, destroyed and built into, created. By definition matter takes up space while energy doesn't have to.


To claim that energy IS matter, meaning that they are the same thing is absolutely ignorant. Please .....just stop.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Except matter can be broken down, destroyed and built into, created. By definition matter takes up space while energy doesn't have to.


To claim that energy IS matter, meaning that they are the same thing is absolutely ignorant. Please .....just stop.

E = MC^2. I see an E and an M on opposite sides of the equation.

 

[Black Dog]

E = MC^2. I see an E and an M on opposite sides of the equation.

Don't even bother. Not worth it man.

 

[Yossarian]

There is no such thing as "the beginning of infinity".


If you think of time as a dimension like, say, the x-axis on the coordinate plane, you don't need to start at negative infinity and start counting to get to the origin. Also, If things can't have already existed for an infinite amount of time, when did God begin, and what created him?


If time itself had a beginning It wouldn't make sense to talk of the universe "suddenly appearing" because there there would have been no events before time began.


Virtual particles spontaneously appear.


The total entropy in a closed system increases, there can be localized decreases in entropy.


The entropy in certain places decreases all the time.


I thought you had already eliminated the possibility of the universe having always existed.


Where did this being come from?


And you know how?

Forget it, there is no point in bothering to argue against sophistic, archaic Aquinean statements, the likes of which have been disproven time and time again.

 

[Badfish420]

Creationism is a totally false belief because in order to believe that all of gods creations were created at the same time you have to believe that humans and dinosaurs were created at the same time and if that were the case then the human race would have never survived and we wouldn't be around today. Not to mention that we weren't the only race of humans. Neanderthals and modern humans both existed around the same time until modern day humans killed the last of these neanderthals. Nowhere in the bible does it mention that there was more than one race of human beings that existed at the same time.

yeah but your forgetting the fact that dinosaur bones were buried in the ground by atheists

 

[Dittohead not!]

yeah but your forgetting the fact that dinosaur bones were buried in the ground by atheists

No, no, Satan himself buried them there to fool us.

 

[Mayor Snorkum]

Not if it's not literal. In the end because of what science chooses to speak to and because of what it can speak to, no science theory including evolution will ever prove or disprove the existence of deities. That's up to the individual to decide. Creationism and evolution are not exclusive. There are specific ideas of creationism which have been measured false, like young earth creationism. But there's nothing innate in the ideal that some deity shaped and molded the world which is contradictory to evolution on a base level.

In the end, I don't get what there is the big hub bub. So some people believe in creationism, it can work with science. Now I don't like the obstructionist folk who want to put creationist theories into science classes or who will flat out deny evolution occurs; but that's their prerogative. I don't think this necessarily has to be a science vs. religion thing since I can see that both science and religion can co-exist on this issue.

No. Creationism is a religion, and as such it cannot work with science. It presumes, absent any shred of proof, that Magic Sky Pixies played an invisible role in evolution. It provides no discussion of the mechanics of Magic Sky Pixie Interventionism, nor does it make any testable predictions, and it fails completely with the requirement that theory conform to existing fact.

One extant fact the religion of creationism fails to address, and here the Mayor is speaking directly to those silly people pushing Young Earth nonsense, is that the MYTH of the Noachian Deluge is exactly that, a myth with no connection to earth's geologic history.

 

[Mayor Snorkum]

Except matter can be broken down, destroyed and built into, created. By definition matter takes up space while energy doesn't have to.


To claim that energy IS matter, meaning that they are the same thing is absolutely ignorant. Please .....just stop.

Well.....matter is energy, and, oh, by the way, energy is matter. They're not "the same thing", they're one thing, "mass-energy". Different expressions of unity, the yin and yang of the universe itself.

 

[Mayor Snorkum]

Abiogenesis. Nothing I could find to support it as more than a hypotheses.

You mean besides the ongoing research that bounds the problem, which is more evidence than anyone's coughed up for the creationist mythologies.

 

[Mayor Snorkum]

So, I'm supposed to use only logic in the discussion of the existence of god?

Yes. Logic is required. Feelings are best shared naked in a hot tub with members of the opposite sex, and they don't prove anything but that people are subject to control by emotions.

Intelligence came from something. Where do you think it came from?

Interesting assumption. Let's pursue it.

Human intelligence evolved over eons as environmental pressures pushed the emergent hominid species into circumstances that demanded adaptation or death. Hominid developed tool use, artificial weapons, hunting skills, and advanced social organization reliant on larger brains and higher brain functions.

This is established science.

What external environmental factors drove God into developing intelligence? Answer carefully, because by definition, there is no environment external to God, and hence no external factors to compel any nascent deity into sentience. One cannot honestly claim both that "intelligence came from something" and then argue that the alleged deity is eternal and hence it's intelligence came from nowhere.

One can dishonestly make that claim, though.

 

[Temporal]

What if all matter was first converted from energy?

Matter and energy are the same thing. They are just waves, but in different densities. Energy is "lighter" and physical matter is "heavier" or more dense. E=MC² is just a rough model to show us that matter which increases in speed and frequency can become energy, or vice versa if the process is reversed.

Both the world and the universe are part of God. They are just different faces of God, as you and I are, and existing in different waves. Right now you are God talking to God through these machines. Your computer itself, your body, and this construct are also God (you may prefer to use the word Divine, Reality, or whatever you want to call "this").

God created the Earth and whatever Reality we are deciding it is.

 

[Yossarian]

Matter and energy are the same thing. They are just waves, but in different densities. Energy is "lighter" and physical matter is "heavier" or more dense. E=MC² is just a rough model to show us that matter which increases in speed and frequency can become energy, or vice versa if the process is reversed.

Both the world and the universe are part of God. They are just different faces of God, as you and I are, and existing in different waves. Right now you are God talking to God through these machines. Your computer itself, your body, and this construct are also God (you may prefer to use the word Divine, Reality, or whatever you want to call "this").

God created the Earth and whatever Reality we are deciding it is.

What you appear to have done is equate 'Divinity' with 'Reality'; according to your position, I as an individual, other individuals, and 'the world and the universe', are all 'faces of God' (I am quoting you verbatim here). But one cannot do this without rendering the concept of Divinity (and therefore God) utterly meaningless. This is because it is almost universally accepted in the philosophical community that 'God', whatever he, she, or it is, cannot logically constitute multiple beings or realities at once; instead, God must, in some way, be an actual temporal thing. To say otherwise; i.e. that God has multiple 'faces', is to render the assertion that he exists totally unfalsifiable, as any natural event or thing can simply be stated to be a 'face' of God without any justification having been supplied.

Basically, you are treading a well-worn path, behind centuries of thinkers who have been proven wrong, again and again.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Yes. Logic is required. Feelings are best shared naked in a hot tub with members of the opposite sex, and they don't prove anything but that people are subject to control by emotions.

OK, that sounds like more fun than arguing on an internet forum.

Interesting assumption. Let's pursue it.

Human intelligence evolved over eons as environmental pressures pushed the emergent hominid species into circumstances that demanded adaptation or death. Hominid developed tool use, artificial weapons, hunting skills, and advanced social organization reliant on larger brains and higher brain functions.

This is established science.

Agreed. The broad outline of the evolution of man is pretty well established. We do keep discovering surprises from time to time, like the existence of Neanderthal DNA in modern humans for example, or evidence of the so called "hobbit" in Indonesia.

What external environmental factors drove God into developing intelligence? Answer carefully, because by definition, there is no environment external to God, and hence no external factors to compel any nascent deity into sentience. One cannot honestly claim both that "intelligence came from something" and then argue that the alleged deity is eternal and hence it's intelligence came from nowhere.

Can we logically determine the nature of intelligence or the nature of god? Since you discount the possibility that god exists in whatever form, then let's examine the nature of intelligence.

Is it merely an adaptation to a lifestyle that involves the use of language, tools, etc.? If so, then which came first, the tools or the intelligence? Logically, the use of the trappings of intelligence came about because there was intelligence to develop them.

When did it all begin? If matter can neither be created nor destroyed, then it follows that matter has always existed. If it has always existed, then it follows that there is no beginning or end of matter. The stuff of the universe has always existed, then, whether or not it was in its present form. Time, then, has no beginning. Why, then, can we be so sure that intelligence has not always existed? If an eternal intelligence is not god, then what is it?

One can dishonestly make that claim, though.

Oh, I think we can claim that a lot of things are beyond human understanding, and many things are yet to be discovered. Why did god create intelligence? I would posit that intelligence was not created, but has always existed in one form or another. If a human life continues after the body dies, as is a belief of most religions, then it follows that it also existed before the body was created. A human being, then, is more than just a body, but an intelligence that has always existed and always will.

Otherwise there is a how to the existence of life (except for the little question of how it actually started) but no why. If we exist for a brief moment in time, then are gone forever, what does it matter that we've lived at all?

 

[Ikari]

Excuse me, Herr Doctor. It is my humble opinion that no matter/mass is created or destroyed during Lamb shift. It is a bad example of matter/mass conversion to/from energy.

It can be your humble opinion if you don't mind being wrong. There are certainly processes in which conservation of mass and matter is not held. Including random vacuum fluctuations which it is the spontaneous creation and subsequent annihilation of matter/anti-matter pairs.

 

[Ikari]

Matter cannot be destroyed or created. It is changed when turned into energy, not destroyed.

Energy IS matter. :doh

Matter can be created and destroyed. I've given you processes under which that happens. Matter is a "form" of energy (if you're specifically talking about mass as it is mass which is equated to energy, not strictly matter), not all forms of energy are matter.

 

[Ikari]

E = MC^2. I see an E and an M on opposite sides of the equation.

But keep in mind, the M is mass, not matter.

 

[Ikari]

Matter and energy are the same thing. They are just waves, but in different densities. Energy is "lighter" and physical matter is "heavier" or more dense. E=MC² is just a rough model to show us that matter which increases in speed and frequency can become energy, or vice versa if the process is reversed.

It says nothing of the sort. Please do not try to use science if you do not understand the science.

 

[Dittohead not!]

But keep in mind, the M is mass, not matter.

and mass is a measure of how much matter is involved.