Why are some liberals ashamed of being liberals?

[Martin_Kaine]

Actually, no, you are wrong and in a big way. I live in a small, rural farming community. Most of the farmers here have been to the library just to look how to repair something(these days probably their computer), and yet they are incredibly smart in their area of expertise. What people get confused by is that they pick an area they know alot about, and see that others don't, and think that makes them smarter.

No I am not wrong in any way. Those farmers are probably a lot smarter than most. Intelligence has nothing to do with your area of expertise. It doesn't even have to do with knowledge or educational level. Wisdom? Maybe.

The average IQ is 100. 85 and you are borderline disabled. Anything above the 50% mark makes you smarter than most. Farmers are often underestimated, but I don't underestimate them. I use to be a cowboy. Yes I was a real life cowboy. I herded cattle on a dirt bike and performed various other labor intensive tasks on a farm during the summer back in high school. There was a lot to know. It's not for idiots unless you are just stacking hay in the barn, and even then you have to do it right or it will fall on you. :lol:

 

[OxymoronP]

I been called a Liberal by some Conservatives and a Radical Right Winger by Liberals perhaps people dont really understand the principles behind the political idealogies.

 

[hazlnut]

Hello, I am new to this board. In the profile set up there is an option to select your political lean. I like that option. It let's me know who I am talking to and gives me a chance to let others see my general political leanings at a glance. I am not a perfect libertarian and I am not a member of the Libertarian party. I am an independent, but libertarian is close enough to sum up the jist of me politically. I am a more freedom less government kind of guy.

I have noticed that other libertarians post their lean publicly, as well as conservatives, very-conservatives, centrists, etc, basically everyone but a handful of liberals. In the past few days I have read the posts of several people who are obviously liberal, but I had to read several of their posts to know it? Why? What are you hiding from? If you choose to be a liberal, why be ashamed of it? If you are ashamed of being liberal, don't be a liberal.

Also, some of you guys calling yourselves centrists, uh yea, not so much. :lol:

IMO -- some far rights on this board have gone so far to the right, they've lost sight of a pragmatic center.

And unless those posts contained a detailed breakdown on all of their views and positions, then you really don't know much about the person...

 

[Martin_Kaine]

IMO -- some far rights on this board have gone so far to the right, they've lost sight of a pragmatic center.

And unless those posts contained a detailed breakdown on all of their views and positions, then you really don't know much about the person...

True, to an extent, but I am quite intuitive. I can read 5 posts and determine whether someone is a liberal, conservative, centrist poser, or confused teenage anarchist who is fighting the man by refusing employment and living with aunt Polly the Pushover.

 

[Oftencold]

¿Que?

Have you looked at the board statistics page?

 

[Martin_Kaine]

¿Que?

Have you looked at the board statistics page?

No, what is that? Is it important? I'll find it.

EDIT: Ok, now I have seen it.

 

[Orion]

Hello, I am new to this board. In the profile set up there is an option to select your political lean. I like that option. It let's me know who I am talking to and gives me a chance to let others see my general political leanings at a glance. I am not a perfect libertarian and I am not a member of the Libertarian party. I am an independent, but libertarian is close enough to sum up the jist of me politically. I am a more freedom less government kind of guy.

I have noticed that other libertarians post their lean publicly, as well as conservatives, very-conservatives, centrists, etc, basically everyone but a handful of liberals. In the past few days I have read the posts of several people who are obviously liberal, but I had to read several of their posts to know it? Why? What are you hiding from? If you choose to be a liberal, why be ashamed of it? If you are ashamed of being liberal, don't be a liberal.

Also, some of you guys calling yourselves centrists, uh yea, not so much. :lol:

Now before someone, a liberal, starts whining about how "Is this the most important issue....." or "You are teh fostering of division...." blah blah blah, no, this is not important to me at all. I'm new and I am curious. I made an observation and I am asking a question.

There are a few observations I've made about the behavior you're describing.

One is that, in certain environments, people who self-identify as "liberal" will not be taken as seriously - usually in more right wing environments - and vice versa for conservatives. Some may not always consider it safe to voice their political views if the people hearing them are not sympathetic.

The other is that, based on the general observations of their political kin, they may feel like the general 'movement' has lost its direction, and that although they too are liberals, they feel that most other liberals they've encountered don't represent them.

Another reason is that sometimes people don't even self-identify as liberal even though the vast majority of what they think, feel, and express may fall within the lines of a "liberal" label. For example, there are people who self-identify as centrists or moderates when really 90% of the time they endorse liberal policy. In these cases they maybe just haven't realized where they stand yet; and anyway, it's not my business or anyone else's to tell them who they are.

What you point out though is true of any political lean. I've seen conservatives on these boards say they are no longer a member of the GOP and are ashamed of the party, for example.

The whole labeling scheme is pretty askew to me. For instance, most people considered Bush to be right wing, even though fiscally he was very liberal. The best thing people can do in this day and age is learn to see things as shades of gray and stop sticking to absolutes. It will make the bigger picture much clearer to them.

 

[justabubba]

No I am not wrong in any way. Those farmers are probably a lot smarter than most. Intelligence has nothing to do with your area of expertise. It doesn't even have to do with knowledge or educational level. Wisdom? Maybe.

The average IQ is 100. 85 and you are borderline disabled. Anything above the 50% mark makes you smarter than most. Farmers are often underestimated, but I don't underestimate them. I use to be a cowboy. Yes I was a real life cowboy. I herded cattle on a dirt bike and performed various other labor intensive tasks on a farm during the summer back in high school. There was a lot to know. It's not for idiots unless you are just stacking hay in the barn, and even then you have to do it right or it will fall on you. :lol:

can't agree with this statement
let's see if you can figure out why

 

[Oftencold]

What is a liberal then? Define it.

. . .

At least I am not shooting way over the mark when it comes to the real differences between conservatives and libertarian's.. they are the same for very few often cosmetic differences.

How much time did you want to spend confusing the meanings of well understood terms? (See "obfuscation*," for a clearer understanding of the practice you are engaging in.)




*"Obfuscation is the concealment of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, intentionally ambiguous, and more difficult to interpret."

 

[Porchev]

Hello, I am new to this board. In the profile set up there is an option to select your political lean. I like that option. It let's me know who I am talking to and gives me a chance to let others see my general political leanings at a glance. I am not a perfect libertarian and I am not a member of the Libertarian party. I am an independent, but libertarian is close enough to sum up the jist of me politically. I am a more freedom less government kind of guy.

I have noticed that other libertarians post their lean publicly, as well as conservatives, very-conservatives, centrists, etc, basically everyone but a handful of liberals. In the past few days I have read the posts of several people who are obviously liberal, but I had to read several of their posts to know it? Why? What are you hiding from? If you choose to be a liberal, why be ashamed of it? If you are ashamed of being liberal, don't be a liberal.

Also, some of you guys calling yourselves centrists, uh yea, not so much. :lol:

Now before someone, a liberal, starts whining about how "Is this the most important issue....." or "You are teh fostering of division...." blah blah blah, no, this is not important to me at all. I'm new and I am curious. I made an observation and I am asking a question.

I didn't display my political leaning since, "libertarian leaning conservative" was not an option, or perhaps a "commonsense conservative" would work too.

 

[Martin_Kaine]

can't agree with this statement
let's see if you can figure out why

Why not? 50.000000001% is "most". If you are smarter than most, you are smarter than most.

 

[Morality Games]

Hello, I am new to this board. In the profile set up there is an option to select your political lean. I like that option. It let's me know who I am talking to and gives me a chance to let others see my general political leanings at a glance. I am not a perfect libertarian and I am not a member of the Libertarian party. I am an independent, but libertarian is close enough to sum up the jist of me politically. I am a more freedom less government kind of guy.

I have noticed that other libertarians post their lean publicly, as well as conservatives, very-conservatives, centrists, etc, basically everyone but a handful of liberals. In the past few days I have read the posts of several people who are obviously liberal, but I had to read several of their posts to know it? Why? What are you hiding from? If you choose to be a liberal, why be ashamed of it? If you are ashamed of being liberal, don't be a liberal.

Also, some of you guys calling yourselves centrists, uh yea, not so much. :lol:

Now before someone, a liberal, starts whining about how "Is this the most important issue....." or "You are teh fostering of division...." blah blah blah, no, this is not important to me at all. I'm new and I am curious. I made an observation and I am asking a question.

Personally, I don't identify as liberal because I'm not a liberal; I don't concur with the theory or morality. My vision of good American politics is two-times removed from how things work in reality. However, liberals are the only political ideology capable of the versatility needed to consistently execute the practical governing strategies conductive to the longterm prosperity of a 21st century superpower. That doesn't mean conservatives or libertarians will never do it, but they lack the will to do it well and engage in perverse double-speak whenever opportunity allows or 'circumstance' requires. End result is far as contemporary political practice is concerned, I am liberal.

At least at the national level. At the state level, the Republican Party is still functional in some instances.

 

[Tsunami]

I think a lot of people who normally vote Democrat understand the political nuances, and put themselves in the proper category. And I think a lot of people who normally vote Republican fail to realize that they are either libertarians or authoritarian, and just claim "conservative".

Incidentally, there are 382 "conservatives" and 340 "liberals".

*Undisclosed 507
Independent 251
Conservative 215
Liberal 166
Very Conservative 112
Moderate 96
Libertarian 93
Very Liberal 90
Slightly Liberal 84
Slightly Conservative 55
Private 52
Centrist 51

 

[Gardener]

I don't need to belong to a tribe, myself.

Plus, the left has been all but taken over by Multiculturalism, and so there really aren't that many old fashioned liberals left.

 

[Martin_Kaine]

I think a lot of people who normally vote Democrat understand the political nuances, and put themselves in the proper category. And I think a lot of people who normally vote Republican fail to realize that they are either libertarians or authoritarian, and just claim "conservative".

Incidentally, there are 382 "conservatives" and 340 "liberals".

Oh, so democrats know exactly who they are and are ashamed of it, and republicans don't know who they are with pride? :lol:

Actually that sounds about right.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

To whom it may concern.

Libertarian ≠ Conservative

Libertarianism is a multifaceted ideology which encompass many conservative, liberal and other beliefs.

It seems that some people do not recognize the political nuances as much as they think.

 

[Martin_Kaine]

To whom it may concern.

Libertarian ≠ Conservative

Libertarianism is a multifaceted ideology which encompass many conservative, liberal and other beliefs.

It seems that some people do not recognize the political nuances as much as they think.

The only thing I really know about libertarians that I can say with all certainty is that getting them to unite and agree on something, anything, is like trying to herd cats on a unicycle.

 

[marduc]

Why the need to have everyone delineated into a neat little pigeonholed stereotype that may or may not accurately represent the totality of someones views?

I carried the liberal label for a while, predominantly based on my social views, this did not encompass the totality of my views however, I also have a wide libertarian streak, and to a lesser degree I take a semi conservative stance on a few random issues (fiscal, immigration, guns to name a few).

To me the label was like forcing a square peg into a round hole, my views do not fit neatly into the label, it fits like a 3 fingered glove.

One thing that I did notice that was rampant when I wore the liberal tag, it detracted IMMENSELY from the discussions. It is way too common for the HACKS around here to denigrate the label, and attack the person based on a "liberal" tag instead of on the merits of the argument.

A liberal label felt akin to waving a red flag in front of an endless succession of ideologues who cannot see beyond the label. The label entices too many HACKS into a blind frenzy where they lash out with an endless string of ad hoc arguments. They lose sight of the discussion, and rather than discuss the topic, they zero in on the caustic label that they consider to be anathema.

It is a distraction, it is an inaccurate pigeonhole, and it is a well that has been thoroughly poisoned by decades of ideological intolerance.

If you are intent on joining the ranks of the ideological hacks around here, just do what others do, assign the label yourself and form your stereotype (who cares about accuracy). Whip yourself into a liberal hating frenzy at will, and just lash out at anyone who does not agree with you, it is always amusing to watch -especially when some of the most non-liberal people suddenly morph into ersatz liberals for the sake of a flurry of rabid ad hoc attacks courtesy of a well that for a contingency of ideologues does not even contain water anymore, it is just bucket after bucket of poison.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

The only thing I really know about libertarians that I can say with all certainty is that getting them to unite and agree on something, anything, is like trying to herd cats on a unicycle.

Libertarians are more diverse than most think.

Some do not recognize Libertarian Socialists as a wing of the Libertarian ideology but I do.

When someone demeans my beliefs to nothing more than covert conservatism, they show their true ignorance of political belief structures.

 

[Redress]

The only thing I really know about libertarians that I can say with all certainty is that getting them to unite and agree on something, anything, is like trying to herd cats on a unicycle.

The same could be said about liberals, and yet you insist on pigeonholing us.

 

[Cardinal]

In all honesty, I think charisma and the appearance of leadership is more important than ideology for most people when they choose a President anyway.

Bam. That's exactly how I knew Obama was going to win.

 

[Martin_Kaine]

The same could be said about liberals, and yet you insist on pigeonholing us.

1. Liberals are pro-abortion.
2. Liberals want the government to use force to take money I have earned and give it to someone that has not.
3. Liberals think the government can make my decisions better than I can.
4. Liberals would have me disarmed and left at the mercy of criminals.

When I meet a liberal that those four statements are not true of, I won't pigeonhole them.

 

[Gardener]

1. Liberals are pro-abortion.
2. Liberals want the government to use force to take money I have earned and give it to someone that has not.
3. Liberals think the government can make my decisions better than I can.
4. Liberals would have me disarmed and left at the mercy of criminals.

When I meet a liberal that those four statements are not true of, I won't pigeonhole them.

Well, the more you post, the more #4 makes perfect sense, anyway.

 

[Redress]

1. Liberals are pro-abortion.
2. Liberals want the government to use force to take money I have earned and give it to someone that has not.
3. Liberals think the government can make my decisions better than I can.
4. Liberals would have me disarmed and left at the mercy of criminals.

When I meet a liberal that those four statements are not true of, I won't pigeonhole them.

Well, you have certainly revealed plenty about yourself and your lack of critical thinking than you think. The kind of oversimplification and inaccurate generalizations that are evident in a couple of your posts in this thread show a hyper-partisan who does not enter into discussions with anything approaching an open mind.

By the way, only the first of those is true in my case.

 

[Cardinal]

I been called a Liberal by some Conservatives and a Radical Right Winger by Liberals perhaps people dont really understand the principles behind the political idealogies.

Maybe they understand the principles behind the political ideologies, but maybe they also don't understand that most people are complex and hold both definitively liberal positions and definitively conservatives ones.

Probably the majority of my political beliefs are liberal, so a lot of the people I hang out with end up being liberal as well. You'd really want to be a fly on the wall when the Palestinian/Israeli issue comes up and I end up siding with the Israelis in a lot of situations. Hoooooooie, you should watch the fur fly.