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Why are socialism and Communism hated?

Quick question, in a completely free-market, capitalist society, what are the incentives for a company to keep jobs - for example - inside a country with a higher standard of living where labor is much more expensive?

Your "quick question" is a good one, quite complex, and probably deserves its own thread. For example, does your "completely free market" allow companies to import an unlimited supply of foreign workers? Does that qualify as "keeping jobs inside a country"? If that's the case, I imagine those higher wages would find a new (lower) equilibrium. But I'll try to give the "short" version of an answer.

1. Quality of the goods/services: I remember a time when Americans bought shoes made in Maine by companies like Bass and Dexter. Maine shoemakers had been producing quality footwear even before the American Revolution. I could always count on these shoes to be well-made, as opposed to imported shoes from Asia. For example, the American shoes' uppers and soles were all cowhide (no synthetics) and sewn. But most Americans didn't notice the synthetic materials and glue in the Chinese-made shoes. They only saw one thing: the price. Leveraged buyouts and inept managements that cheapened the shoes while attempting to cut costs sealed the decline of these American brands. Another example: kids' bicycles. At one time, companies like Murray, Huffy, and Schwinn wrote the book on quality children's bicycles. The Chinese began to flood the U.S. market with poorly crafted but inexpensive bikes. Once again, most Americans didn't concern themselves with quality as much as price. As long as Little Johnny didn't care about the cheap materials and poor craftsmanship, neither did Mom or Dad. The American companies thought the only way to compete was to produce their bikes overseas as well and sell through mass merchants like K-Mart. One consequence of this decision was the Americans taught the Chinese how to make better bicycles. The Chinese took what they learned and used it to extend to the American companies the coup de grace.

2. Caché: What's "cool" and fashionable can allow a company a significant competitive advantage. There was a time when Americans would pay a premium price for Levi's denim jeans. Levi's jeans really weren't better than a pair of Lee or Wrangler jeans. The difference was Levi's were sold by an iconic American company only at smaller specialty chains and boutiques like Miller's Outpost and The Gap. But the company damaged the brand after it significantly ramped up production and began selling its signature jeans to large chains like Sears and K-Mart. Once again, a series of leveraged buyouts and inept management caused more damage to the "American" brand when production was shifted to cheaper foreign plants in response to competition. Levi Strauss' expensive "American" jeans had essentially become a foreign-made commodity, so, to the average K-Mart shopper, paying less for a store brand was a no-brainer.
The company also missed the boat on designer jeans, although in recent years it responded to the success of American-made brands like True Religion by once again producing a premium line of denim jeans in the U.S. You won't find these jeans at K-Mart. Presumably, the company learned its lesson.

3. Limited Competition: Jobs in certain industries are, for practical reasons, less susceptible to foreign competition. Examples: neighborhood bars/lounges, supermarkets, hair salons, residential construction, restaurants, hotels, urgent care clinics, utilities, tourism/entertainment venues. I mean, good luck replicating the New York Yankees, Yosemite, or Disney World.

4. Skill level of the workforce: Germany has high labor costs, but it also has a productive, highly-trained workforce that produces goods such as luxury autos, machine tools, and optics in which so much value is added that companies can more than afford to support higher wages.

5. Quality-of-life issues: American firms produce a lot of goods in Mexico, but some companies have moved management positions back to the U.S. due to security threats, including kidnappings and the ongoing drug war in that country.

6. Access to research/technology: It's no accident that firms in research-intensive industries find it beneficial to locate near major universities/research centers in order to gain access to talent/research and initiate joint agreements and ventures. Examples: Silicon Valley, Research Triangle, Route 128.

I'm sure there are other factors I could come up with if I thought about it long enough, but my basic point is if managements are enlightened and can see beyond the dollar signs they have hanging from their noses they can pay relatively high wages and still make money. In fact, producing in an "expensive" country can be good business under the right conditions.
 
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Ahlevah said:
I'm sure there are other factors I could come up with if I thought about it long enough, but my basic point is if managements are enlightened and can see beyond the dollar signs they have hanging from their noses they can pay relatively high wages and still make money. In fact, producing in an "expensive" country can be good business under the right conditions.

Except this isn't how competition works under a capitalist system, the issue is structural and not due to "bad management" (which is sort of laughable that you believe that considering how borderline-conspiracist 'universally bad management' is).

BTW, there are plenty of companies that still make quality products, the difference is that their products are now more expensive due to smaller scale of production and supply.
 
Except this isn't how competition works under a capitalist system....

Companies that don't innovate or adapt go by the wayside. That's the way it should be.

(T)he issue is structural and not due to "bad management" (which is sort of laughable that you believe that considering how borderline-conspiracist 'universally bad management' is).

You lost me here. Where did I claim that managements are "universally bad"? There are good managements, there are bad managements, and there are mediocre managements.
 
Honestly, the idea that if only Americans were enlightened they'd see the wisdom of socialism is wearing thin. What we're witnessing in Europe is the decline of socialist mollycoddling. Greece is the poster child of an "economically happy country" that's discovering what happens when you live beyond your means.

Economically Happy People

842096-greece-protest.jpg
Hey, Professor! This is we, here in USA, live beyond our means.
 
Hey, Professor! This is we, here in USA, live beyond our means.

Well, not quite as bad yet, but with almost 46 million people on Food Stamps were working on it. TINSTAAFL.
 
Well, not quite as bad yet, but with almost 46 million people on Food Stamps were working on it. TINSTAAFL.

Where does the foodstamp money go once it's in the recipient's hands?
 
Where does the foodstamp money go once it's in the recipient's hands?

It's added to the national debt so people can protest once we figure out we can no longer afford it and we cut them off.
 
It's added to the national debt so people can protest once we figure out we can no longer afford it and we cut them off.

It goes directly into the hands of local business. Have you ever been on foodstamps? If so, did you plan on staying on foodstamps so that you could just ride the system out and not have to work? The number of people on foodstamps corresponds with the number of people working. When more people are working, less people are on foodstamps. Without the foodstamps, the people who would be using them wouldn't be spending them on things they need.
 
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I am curious as to why people despise socialism and Communism so much. I have my own reasons, but I would rather not post them until I hear from others, lest I corrupt their thought process with the power of suggestion.

Why do you try to put Socialism and Communism together, they are not the same type of goverment, Socialism the people own the goverment, Communism the goverment owns the people. Capitalism corperations owns the goverment and the people.
 
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Why do you try to put Socialism and Communism together, they are not the same type of goverment, Socialism the people own the goverment, Communism the goverment owns the people. Capitalism corperations owns the goverment and the people.

Mind proving your point?
 
Why do you try to put Socialism and Communism together, they are not the same type of goverment, Socialism the people own the goverment, Communism the goverment owns the people. Capitalism corperations owns the goverment and the people.
Not entirely true. In Marxist theory communism is the final stage of society. There is no government. The state, at least as we understand the term, has been rendered unnecessary. There would likely be decentralized direct democracies, but nothing like we understand the modern nation state.
 
Mind proving your point?
I guess my point is that Capitalism is not working in this country for the magority of the citizens. In fact what I've heard on the Fox News it has only worked for about 2% of the people of this country. I say in 150 years that's not a good percentage rate, to be successful it would be more like 75% Of the people being rich. But thanks for the reply I enjoy the debate.
 
Have you ever been on foodstamps?

Nope. I can't imagine I ever would. (I live 100 feet from a bayou off of the Mississippi Sound with more shrimp and fish than I could ever consume. The only people who'd ever starve here are either morons or lazy.)

If so, did you plan on staying on foodstamps so that you could just ride the system out and not have to work?

Not applicable to me personally, but I'll concede that in times of economic stress more people take advantage of the "social safety net." But we've created an entitlement society in which people immediately turn to the government for aid, and I think we sustain dependency. As FDR warned in his 1935 State of the Union Address:

A large proportion of these unemployed and their dependents have been forced on the relief rolls. The burden on the Federal Government has grown with great rapidity. We have here a human as well as an economic problem. When humane considerations are concerned, Americans give them precedence. The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole our relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit. It is inimical to the dictates of a sound policy. It is in violation of the traditions of America. Work must be found for able-bodied but destitute workers.

Franklin D. Roosevelt - State of the Union Address -- 1935

The question going forward is who is going to create jobs: government, or the private sector? Good luck on government. It's tapped out. But I'm sure that won't stop BOBama from coming up with another porky "jobs program." Same song, different dance.
 
In reality, communism has never been tried in its ideal form. Communism in its ideal form is eceryone having the same of everything. Same house, same salary, same status. The main problem with comunism is it sounds so good! "Everyone will be equal!" But at the same time, there has never been a communist nation that has truly implemented that. Communism is SO very easy to corrupt. It is SO fragile in the sense that all it takes is one power hungry person or even someone who is trying to help can start a chain of horrible dictators and tryants. Would it be nice to have that utopian society? Why yes of course it would! But the imstability of the structure of TRUE communism mied with the near impossibilty to overthrow a communist country without outside help, just makes that government to dangerous
 
In reality, communism has never been tried in its ideal form. Communism in its ideal form is eceryone having the same of everything. Same house, same salary, same status. The main problem with comunism is it sounds so good! "Everyone will be equal!" But at the same time, there has never been a communist nation that has truly implemented that. Communism is SO very easy to corrupt. It is SO fragile in the sense that all it takes is one power hungry person or even someone who is trying to help can start a chain of horrible dictators and tryants. Would it be nice to have that utopian society? Why yes of course it would! But the imstability of the structure of TRUE communism mied with the near impossibilty to overthrow a communist country without outside help, just makes that government to dangerous

Dumb pointless post is dumb and pointless. Did your fourth grade teacher tell you all this? I bet they did.
 
How can you determine how it "worls" for you? If you dont mind me asking... if you are talking about the poverty level then maybe you dont understand how tje government veiws poverty. 98% of people who are on some sort of wellfare for poverty say their children never go hungry, they have reasonable assests (aka a car, some form of adequate shelter) and in y opinion dont need the money. If we were to just take social programs as a whole (medicare, medicaid, wellfare, social security) in ten years, the costnof these will explode and increase by an outstading 14,400%! The majority of funding for these programs is through tax revenue so if they baloon by that amount, what will happen to taxes? For everyone, forget about jist the rich or middle class or poor, the country cant support that kind of determental, crippling spending. Now bear in mind, this is a projection that will come to pass if it cotinues unreformed and unchecked. Amd i realize that i wemt into the topic at length without even knowing if that is what you are refering to so i apoligize for that. Haha i just xouldnt help mysef
 
Do you mimd elaborating? I thought this was an actual website where everyone could post how they felt about an issue and then discuss it with people from other veiwpoints? Instead of just saying "wht a dumb post" maybe you coud try something like "actually, (fill in blank)" i feel like you would make alot mmore headway for your specific view :)
 
Why do you try to put Socialism and Communism together, they are not the same type of goverment, Socialism the people own the goverment, Communism the goverment owns the people. Capitalism corperations owns the goverment and the people.
I believe you have chosen an accurate user name for yourself. RichardElderton should not have been the first person putting them together, there are someone who are far more authoritative in doing so. How about the Chinese Communist Party? The Constitution of the Communist China written under the force of the Chiness Communist paty so states: China is a Socialist country that must be under the leadership (meaning control, of course) of the Chinese Communist Party. Now, try to tell the CCP they are mistaken, and the country, or the governemnt, is owned by the people!
 
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Anarchism isn’t a system, it’s a set of ethical and philosophical principles. So there is no precise model, or plan. Parecon/Parpolity are simply well developed theoretical models of how a society could function, applying Libertarian Socialist principles, on all levels of society. Provided one consistently applies the ethical and philosophical tenets of Anarchism, you can’t go too wrong. Most of these people just accept, unconsciously.
In a society appying Libertarian Socialist principles, will copyright be allowed? Why not? Will private roperty be allowed? Why not? Will a landlord be allowed to collect rent from a tenant? Why not? Will an engineer be be allowed to be awarded more than a janitor? why not? Will the boss of a group of engineers be awarded more than an individual engineer? why not? Will a person who provides investment to set up business for the engineers to manufacture things for the society be allowed to collect profit or is he only allowed to lose money at his risk, otherwise making money is a social crime?
 
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In a society appying Libertarian Socialist principles, will copyright be allowed? Why not? Will private roperty be allowed? Why not? Will a landlord be allowed to collect rent from a tenant? Why not?

First you have to realize that Libertarian Socialism represents a range of opinion, that there is no one universal consensus on how every facet of a Libertarian Socialist society might function. There is a range of opinion. This is really the same question repeated three times. The question is; 'Why do Libertarians oppose private property?' The short answer is because it is theft. The slightly longer answer is that it divides people into classes, establishes an unfair, unequal relationship between labor and capital. Private property is also authoritarian because workers' are denied their right to democratic participation in their productive lives. Third; again, private property is theft because it establishes an elite class who enrich themselves off the proceeds of other peoples' labor.

Will an engineer be be allowed to be awarded more than a janitor? why not?

Yes. Although, it should be noted that in an Anarchist society there would be balanced job complexes, so no-one would simply be a janitor, or an engineer, they would have other duties, as well.

Will the boss of a group of engineers be awarded more than an individual engineer? why not?

The means of production will be publicly owned so there won't be an elite, manegerial class, at least not as such. There might be individuals who fill a comperable role, but, again, they would have a balanced job complex, and would serve on a workers' council, and be answerable to the workers' council.

Will a person who provides investment to set up business for the engineers to manufacture things for the society be allowed to collect profit or is he only allowed to lose money at his risk, otherwise making money is a social crime?

Libertarian Socialism precludes such a scenario because private property will be abolished. A group of individuals can get together and petition to create an enterprise, but no single person will own said enterprise, it belongs to the workers.
 
First you have to realize that Libertarian Socialism represents a range of opinion, that there is no one universal consensus on how every facet of a Libertarian Socialist society might function. There is a range of opinion.

That's because it's a stupid term utilized by people with little understanding of political theory. Libertarian = liberal socially and economically. Socialist = authoritarian economically (there are not inherent social policies under socialism). Thus, a libertarian socialist is nothing more than a liberal socialist (or an economically authoritarian libertarian - which is patently nonsense). One cannot simply grab two terms they think are cool and combine them as an ideology; this is pathetic.


I'm a totalitarian anarchist!

:rollie eyes:
 
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That's because it's a stupid term utilized by people with little understanding of political theory. Libertarian = liberal socially and economically. Socialist = authoritarian economically (there are not inherent social policies under socialism). Thus, a libertarian socialist is nothing more than a liberal socialist (or an economically authoritarian libertarian - which is patently nonsense). One cannot simply grab two terms they think are cool and combine them as an ideology; this is pathetic.

I'm a totalitarian anarchist!

:rollie eyes:


You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
 
The question is; 'Why do Libertarians oppose private property?' The short answer is because it is theft. The slightly longer answer is that it divides people into classes, establishes an unfair, unequal relationship between labor and capital. Private property is also authoritarian because workers' are denied their right to democratic participation in their productive lives. Third; again, private property is theft because it establishes an elite class who enrich themselves off the proceeds of other peoples' labor.
You did not answer the copyright (or pattern) question. Is it private property? If not, it would be either not allowed, or certain invention must be shared but without any compensation by everyone else who cannot invent . Why aren’t the sharing by the incapable not theft? If such sharing is mandated by the society, it is even beyond theft, but robbery, because the sharing is done under a force. How should a worker with the “right to democratic participation” be handled if he is constantly absent while others must work hard? Pay him less? Then how would those who work hard and thus get more pay have not accumulated more private property than the absent guy? You call those who work hard and get more pay thieves? What if a smarter worker showing better ability to organize production is promoted to a leading position? Should he get more pay or the same pay as the others with the same “right to democratic participation” like the others? What if by any chance a serious accident happen or he did make mistake in some planning then the business must suffer, would he be held accountable and be disciplined or even punished or should he walk away free as if he has never been put in the leading position? What if someone’s wife is seen more attractive by someone else, and this someone else demands private time with her? Should the husband have a right to reject the demand or should the husband stay speechless and is not allowed to decline? According to your "principle", keeping a woman's private time for a special person is keeping private property, it is a crime.
Yes. Although, it should be noted that in an Anarchist society there would be balanced job complexes, so no-one would simply be a janitor, or an engineer, they would have other duties, as well.
Are fame and reputation personal property? Should a janitor be assigned a job as a pianist any time a pianist is needed and placed on the platform to play for the audience although the audience prefers so much someone else to perform? You tell the audience their demand is not allowed. I don’t know whether you are a fan of Michael Jackson. As a scenario, let me assume you are. Now, he has died. When you want to enjoy the same kind of dance, how about let me, who is no better than a janitor, play for you but you pay the same price of ticket? Don’t want it? Too bad, watching my performance could be one of your “other duties” in your libertarian socialism. Indeed, without authority, who can assign “other duties” to people? However, with such authority, how would the authoritative person see declining such assignment not an disobedience or even rebellion? How should or would he not assign one group of people the duty of suppressing such rebellion that has been held by other group of people?
Libertarian socialism of your version just turns out to be another name of absolute dictatorship. Do not sell it unless you are too stupid to feel fanatical about it or too smart to see huge advantage from it to serve your personal ambition—but make sure you are smart enough to put your competitors of the same idea under control. Millions of less smarty comrades died under the butcher knife of Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, Che… although their version of socialism is called Marxist. Your version and their version are essentially the same.
 
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In Marxist theory communism is the final stage of society. There is no government. The state, at least as we understand the term, has been rendered unnecessary. There would likely be decentralized direct democracies, but nothing like we understand the modern nation state.

you are absolutely correct, there will be no government at all in communism, because there is only one ultimate person in the entire planet. He is the final victor (with a necessary wife, maybe), everyone else has been wasted during power struggle in the preceding stage--the socialist stage.
 
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