Why are so many Trump supporters against the “Trump vaccine”?

[MTAtech]

So you're not witnessing liberals shame and bully and even wish harm to those who don't get vaccinated? It's everywhere for crying out loud.

The same people screaming "my body, my choice", "women are beautiful at any size" (to address those who "fat shame"), "bullying is wrong" are the same people saying horrible things about those who choose not to get vaccinated. It's hypocrisy at its lowest form.

Since when is getting a vaccine "liberal?"

Moreover, what you call bullying I call appealing to common sense. With the vaccines, we have the closest thing to a magic bullet against a virus that can kill you and people refuse to take it.

 

[screenwriter]

So does life begin at conception? When the heart starts beating? When there is electrical brain activity (the criterion used in ICUs for determining whether artificial life support should be stopped)? Maybe sperm should be treated like new life? Those questions are not something science can answer very easily.

Regardless, those who are pro-choice do not agree with your particular definition, not that they don’t care about life.

Go to any biology book and you will see science is very clear about that. It's called the human life cycle. Until that sperm has joined with an egg - the human life cycle as yet to begin. That's not Biology 101 - that's elementary school health class.

Pro choice may say they care about life - they just don't show it.

 

[MTAtech]

At one time, "legally speaking" a black person wasn't defined as a "full" human either. Biology is science - science says there is a human life cycle. Annoying isn't it?

What I believe you are referring to is not a black person but a slave, who were considered 2/3 of a person in the constitution for apportionment purposes. Thus, the distinction is a legal one, not a biological one.

Likewise, the legal definition of a citizen is one that was born or naturalized in the United States. The operative word being "born."

 

[screenwriter]

Since when is getting a vaccine "liberal?"

Moreover, what you call bullying I call appealing to common sense. With the vaccines, we have the closest thing to a magic bullet against a virus that can kill you and people refuse to take it.

And weight loss and healthy life style is an equal magic bullet - and that isn't happening. I had an extremely hard time with taking the vaccine. It's unproved with long term side effects - a lot of people care about things like that.

 

[screenwriter]

What I believe you are referring to is not a black person but a slave, who were considered 2/3 of a person in the constitution for apportionment purposes. Thus, the distinction is a legal one, not a biological one.

Likewise, the legal definition of a citizen is one that was born or naturalized in the United States. The operative word being "born."

So then you agree with me that legal definitions can change with enlightenment. Thank you.

 

[CaughtInThe]

If the vaccine is safe, why did the government grant Pfizer and Moderna total immunity from liability lawsuits?

If COVID is safe why has it killed 4,108,454 humans?

 

[MTAtech]

And weight loss and healthy life style is an equal magic bullet - and that isn't happening. I had an extremely hard time with taking the vaccine. It's unproved with long term side effects - a lot of people care about things like that.

Same argument here...

 

[MTAtech]

If the vaccine is safe, why did the government grant Pfizer and Moderna total immunity from liability lawsuits?

Because the companies would build in a risk premium and the vaccine would cost the government more per dose.

Do you refrain from driving because cars aren't 100% safe? If cars are so safe, why do I need to carry insurance?

Your argument moves to the absurd, unless something is proven 100% safe, you won't use it -- even if the risk of not using it is far higher.

 

[aociswundumho]

Because the companies would build in a risk premium and the vaccine would cost the government more per dose.

Great, if this is a better way, then the government should grant pharmcos total immunity for all of the drugs they make.

 

[MTAtech]

Great, if this is a better way, then the government should grant pharmcos total immunity for all of the drugs they make.

You asked a question, I answered it. Your motive was to use that as an excuse for being suspicious of the vaccine. I took the wind out of the sails of that excuse.

 

[code1211]

I am glad for you for getting the vaccine. Congratulations!

But the map of counties not yet well-vaccinated and most vulnerable to Covid today reflects almost exactly the map of counties which voted for Trump. That’s the truthful and factual data.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Seth Masket: The great vaccine divide puts Republican leaders in a moral quandary

The nation’s response to COVID was partisan almost from its very beginnings. What’s stunning is that the partisan divide on COVID is growing deeper more than a year into the illness, and indeed is …

www.google.com

The only question is why.

The answer seems to be a suspicion of all mainstream authorities and sources of information, in favor of conspiratorial thinking and fringe and questionable information sources. These are also the counties and demographic most vulnerable to things like QAnon conspiracies.

It makes sense. They are living in a fabricated universe divorced from reality and based more on wishful thinking and fantasy. However, reality is ultimately a harsh teacher and tends to slap people awake eventually from their beautiful fantasies, one way or the other.

There might be a correlation and, then again, there might not be.

Simply identifying a geographic area that has anything does only that.

This link says that minorities are not being vaccinated in numbers equal to the numbers of of the non-minority population. Seems like there should be some relation ot what you are deducing from your stats.

You can deduce any number of odd conclusions from this, but they would all likely be wrong: Minorities live mostly in rural areas? Minorities vote in great numbers for Republicans? Minorities are mostly Trump supporters?

Why Black Americans aren't being vaccinated for COVID-19 at the same rate as whites

Early data on the rollout of the vaccines for COVID-19 shows that minority populations in the United States already disproportionately affected by the pandemic are not being immunized at the same rate as white Americans.

news.yahoo.com

 

[ataraxia]

Go to any biology book and you will see science is very clear about that. It's called the human life cycle. Until that sperm has joined with an egg - the human life cycle as yet to begin. That's not Biology 101 - that's elementary school health class.

Pro choice may say they care about life - they just don't show it.

You may want to let the hospital ICUs know that. Patients are considered dead when they are brain dead: no more electrical activity in the brain by EEG electrical activity.

Are you suggesting medical doctors don’t know their biology?

 

[aociswundumho]

You asked a question, I answered it.

Yes, but it's the wrong answer. Everyone reading this knows that a leftist like you would not support granting total liability to big pharmcos for all drugs.

You are struggling between two of your leftist values: collectivism and paternalism.

Collectivism wins every time.

 

[ataraxia]

There might be a correlation and, then again, there might not be.

Simply identifying a geographic area that has anything does only that.

This link says that minorities are not being vaccinated in numbers equal to the numbers of of the non-minority population. Seems like there should be some relation ot what you are deducing from your stats.

You can deduce any number of odd conclusions from this, but they would all likely be wrong: Minorities live mostly in rural areas? Minorities vote in great numbers for Republicans? Minorities are mostly Trump supporters?

Why Black Americans aren't being vaccinated for COVID-19 at the same rate as whites

Early data on the rollout of the vaccines for COVID-19 shows that minority populations in the United States already disproportionately affected by the pandemic are not being immunized at the same rate as white Americans.

news.yahoo.com

If those minorities are refusing to get the vaccine, that means that’s a problem which should also be addressed- not that it excuses Trump supporters, who are numerically much larger, from getting it.

More Black Americans open to COVID-19 vaccines after outreach efforts, poll says

The executive director of the American Public Health Association says attitudes toward the vaccine among Black Americans have taken “almost a 180-degree turnaround.”

www.google.com

 

[ataraxia]

Yes, but it's the wrong answer. Everyone reading this knows that a leftist like you would not support granting total liability to big pharmcos for all drugs.

You are struggling between two of your leftist values: collectivism and paternalism.

Collectivism wins every time.

Huh? Pharmos have never been liable for allergic reactions to their stuff. It’s not exclusive to Covid vaccines.

 

[MTAtech]

Yes, but it's the wrong answer. Everyone reading this knows that a leftist like you would not support granting total liability to big pharmcos for all drugs.

You are struggling between two of your leftist values: collectivism and paternalism.

Collectivism wins every time.

You asked “why?” I told you why. I didn’t say I agree with it. It was a Trump Admin decision. I had nothing to do with it.

 

[Manc Skipper]

They don't like the Trump vaccine, they would rather embrace the Trumpvirus!

 

[screenwriter]

You may want to let the hospital ICUs know that. Patients are considered dead when they are brain dead: no more electrical activity in the brain by EEG electrical activity.

Are you suggesting medical doctors don’t know their biology?

Where did that come from? I was talking about the beginning of the life cycle. You jumped to something entirely different.

 

[screenwriter]

Same argument here...

Uh huh. Nice diversion from the actual topic.
Remember DDT and Thalidomide? A couple of major "oopsies" there - huh?

 

[ataraxia]

Where did that come from? I was talking about the beginning of the life cycle. You jumped to something entirely different.

I am coming from the same place you are: the beginning of the life cycle. You are telling us science tell us life begins at conception. I am telling you that’s not how medical science thinks of it. Once EEG electrical brain activity ceases, a patient is considered dead in hospital ICUs and life support is withdrawn. A fertilized egg has the same level of EEG electrical activity as a sperm cell: none.

 

[code1211]

If those minorities are refusing to get the vaccine, that means that’s a problem which should also be addressed- not that it excuses Trump supporters, who are numerically much larger, from getting it.

More Black Americans open to COVID-19 vaccines after outreach efforts, poll says

The executive director of the American Public Health Association says attitudes toward the vaccine among Black Americans have taken “almost a 180-degree turnaround.”

www.google.com

The point is that the polling and the politically framed assumptions are political in nature to produce an opinion.

The "My Body, My Choice" point of view seems to be popular among some in relation to other ideas, but not this one.

Seems odd.

 

[ataraxia]

The point is that the polling and the politically framed assumptions are political in nature to produce an opinion.

The "My Body, My Choice" point of view seems to be popular among some in relation to other ideas, but not this one.

Seems odd.

Whether suspicious African-Americans or Trump supporters, anti-VAXers are mistaken and put the entire public at risk, not just themselves.

 

[screenwriter]

I am coming from the same place you are: the beginning of the life cycle. You are telling us science tell us life begins at conception. I am telling you that’s not how medical science thinks of it. Once EEG electrical brain activity ceases, a patient is considered dead in hospital ICUs and life support is withdrawn. A fertilized egg has the same level of EEG electrical activity as a sperm cell: none.

The proclamation of death (TOD) is a legal event for legal purposes only - not a scientific or medical one.

A person can be clinically dead and sustained on life support. Clinical death is considered a medical emergency and measure will be taken to resuscitate - unless there is a DNR in place (which is a legal document). Once a clinically dead person is considered un-savable the doctor will proclaim them legally dead. The TOD is a legal event - as in "legally dead". After legal death is established there is no obligation on the part of the doctor to make any more attempts.
When you hear news reports that the person was "pronounced dead at the scene" it means the clinical death was such that there are no measure that could undo it. It legally absolves the crew of any obligation to take any further measure.

We had this problem at the beginning of Covid. Rescue would not call the coroner to make the field pronouncement of TOD and bring the body to the Emergency Room. Without the pronouncement of TOD (legally dead) the already overworked-with-Covid doctor in the ER had a legal obligation to take measures. For instance Michael Jackson was found dead in his home. Clinically dead. He was transported to the ER who then had the obligation to work on the body - even though the ER doctor had informed the advised Rescue it was a coroner's case and to pronounce the TOD in the field instead of bringing him in (based on the circumstances described by the rescue). As a result of him being brought in anyway (at the request of his personal physician on scene), 14 people worked on him that could have been helping others.

It isn't that an unborn isn't "alive" biologically or medically - it is. But biologically alive has been superseded with "legally alive" - and we all know lawyers know more about how to define life than any ol' doctor ever could.

 

[ataraxia]

The proclamation of death (TOD) is a legal event for legal purposes only - not a scientific or medical one.

A person can be clinically dead and sustained on life support. Clinical death is considered a medical emergency and measure will be taken to resuscitate - unless there is a DNR in place (which is a legal document). Once a clinically dead person is considered un-savable the doctor will proclaim them legally dead. The TOD is a legal event - as in "legally dead". After legal death is established there is no obligation on the part of the doctor to make any more attempts.
When you hear news reports that the person was "pronounced dead at the scene" it means the clinical death was such that there are no measure that could undo it. It legally absolves the crew of any obligation to take any further measure.

We had this problem at the beginning of Covid. Rescue would not call the coroner to make the field pronouncement of TOD and bring the body to the Emergency Room. Without the pronouncement of TOD (legally dead) the already overworked-with-Covid doctor in the ER had a legal obligation to take measures. For instance Michael Jackson was found dead in his home. Clinically dead. He was transported to the ER who then had the obligation to work on the body - even though the ER doctor had informed the advised Rescue it was a coroner's case and to pronounce the TOD in the field instead of bringing him in (based on the circumstances described by the rescue). As a result of him being brought in anyway (at the request of his personal physician on scene), 14 people worked on him that could have been helping others.

It isn't that an unborn isn't "alive" biologically or medically - it is. But biologically alive has been superseded with "legally alive" - and we all know lawyers know more about how to define life than any ol' doctor ever could.

Doctors, and biologists, do not have a well-defined point at which they can draw the line between life and non-life. It’s all on a smooth spectrum from sperms and eggs up until birth. Common places to draw the line are conception, first heartbeat, first electrical activity in the brain, viability outside of the uterus, etc, etc,… There is a similar problem on the other end of life as well, as you point out.

What we choose to define as “life” is socially and legally defined, not scientifically. That’s why, for practical and administrative purposes, lawyers and lawmakers have to step in with their legal definitions. Why would they do that if the scientists already had a good definition and place to draw the line?

It’s sort of like legally defining any speed over 65mph as “too fast” for a particular stretch of hwy, or sex with anyone below a certain age as statutory rape. It’s a little random- but you have to draw the line somewhere for practical and administrative purposes. But in reality it’s all on a smooth spectrum.

 

[code1211]

Whether suspicious African-Americans or Trump supporters, anti-VAXers are mistaken and put the entire public at risk, not just themselves.

In a previous post this morning, I noted that demographically, those younger than 40 years comprise less than 1% of the Covid deaths.

All of those who die WITH covid comprise less than 1% of the population. 94% of them have underlying conditions and 70% of them are over weight. 92% are older than 60 years.

If a person is younger than 40, does not have diabetes, is not overweight and does not suffer lung or heart disease, that person is virtually bullet proof regarding this virus.

I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS SINCE ABOUT JUNE, 2020. I have also been saying to open the country and protect the vulnerable.

Those who suffer bad reactions to the vaccine also comprise less than 1% of 1%. If you are young and have no underlying conditions, the vaccine is as big or a bigger threat as Covid.