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Who has had their mind changed on gun control?[W:232]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

If anything, I've become even more pro-gun rights since I've been here.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

If anything, I've become even more pro-gun rights since I've been here.
The only thing I've moderated on are some due process restrictions, only on violent criminals. I've galvanized my stance against prior restraint law, so much that I want our side to start taking laws away. Sure, if something is proven beyond a doubt to work without any semblance of being an infringement discussion can be had, but that would leave few laws remaining on the books.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

what sort of nonsense is this?

Best explain yourself, I don't understand emotional vague useless responses that serve no purpose. What's your point, you a problem with comprehension? Firearm owners support gun control. There is no argument on that. How many do you know who want some form of gun control? One, a few, many?

The quickest way to lose a right is to deny it to others.

Perhaps those firearm owners advocating and supporting gun control need a rethink
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

The only thing I've moderated on are some due process restrictions, only on violent criminals. I've galvanized my stance against prior restraint law, so much that I want our side to start taking laws away. Sure, if something is proven beyond a doubt to work without any semblance of being an infringement discussion can be had, but that would leave few laws remaining on the books.

Yes we should be removing useless inhuman and unjustified laws. How the heck did we allow them to be passed? What were we thinking? They cant hurt and may work?
If you ever find the proof that guns cause crime do let everyone know. Gun control will be eternally grateful they have been looking in vain for 200 years and still claim it exists despite finding no trace at all.

Apparently the human race has a problem with logic. They firmly believe an inanimate object can control what we do. Guns are unique, the only object on this earth attributed this strange power we should know more about in case government gets its hands on it. Instead many are worried guns may fall into the wrong hands and are determined it is possible to prevent by restriction and punishing everyone.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Yes we should be removing useless inhuman and unjustified laws. How the heck did we allow them to be passed? What were we thinking? They cant hurt and may work?
If you ever find the proof that guns cause crime do let everyone know. Gun control will be eternally grateful they have been looking in vain for 200 years and still claim it exists despite finding no trace at all.

Apparently the human race has a problem with logic. They firmly believe an inanimate object can control what we do. Guns are unique, the only object on this earth attributed this strange power we should know more about in case government gets its hands on it. Instead many are worried guns may fall into the wrong hands and are determined it is possible to prevent by restriction and punishing everyone.
I've gone as far as to say if something has a negative perception like full auto, to make people feel better we could streamline a licensure for full auto, for now, until a better understanding is reached, however the further the anti-gun lobby pushes, the less concessions I am willing to make. I have no problem keeping people with a violent history either in prison, or making them prove they have reformed before they can own a weapon, but that is the absolute limit.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I've gone as far as to say if something has a negative perception like full auto, to make people feel better we could streamline a licensure for full auto, for now, until a better understanding is reached, however the further the anti-gun lobby pushes, the less concessions I am willing to make. I have no problem keeping people with a violent history either in prison, or making them prove they have reformed before they can own a weapon, but that is the absolute limit.

I'm not sure why you are making concessions? Surely you are not expecting either gun control or government to make concessions in return?

Besides the middle ground is not trying to appease gun control.

Gun control vs Firearm Owners | News24
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I'm not sure why you are making concessions? Surely you are not expecting either gun control or government to make concessions in return?

Besides the middle ground is not trying to appease gun control.

Gun control vs Firearm Owners | News24
The only reason for a couple of concessions is to keep people on the fence who vote in the friendly column until the conversation gives them the knowledge to understand the "dangerous" full autos are not all that dangerous. However it's not a concession I want to grant, on prior restraint of anything else, it's a no.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

The only reason for a couple of concessions is to keep people on the fence who vote in the friendly column until the conversation gives them the knowledge to understand the "dangerous" full autos are not all that dangerous. However it's not a concession I want to grant, on prior restraint of anything else, it's a no.

Then you may seriously want to consider that once you accept gun control all you can now do is argue over how much to accept.

And nobody fights what they accept, nobody.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Then you may seriously want to consider that once you accept gun control all you can now do is argue over how much to accept.

And nobody fights what they accept, nobody.
Well, here's the deal, I'm as pro second as they come. I don't mind full auto being a side issue at this moment, there are bigger battles to fight. Once the antis lose on the really stupid stuff we can push back on the rest.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Well, here's the deal, I'm as pro second as they come. I don't mind full auto being a side issue at this moment, there are bigger battles to fight. Once the antis lose on the really stupid stuff we can push back on the rest.

Here is reality the antis are not losing as no country in the world has less restrictive gun legislation than it did 50 years ago. We do not even know how to win.

Virtually everything we have done so far is wrong.

It is a psychological thing. You do not go into battle to partially win or accept minor irrelevant success as good enough for now.

Either you fight to win or don't bother and in this fight nothing less will do. Which part of your arm are you willing to lose? Rights are no different. They cannot be subdivided, either you have them and value your rights or you don't.

I think we have been playing silly fools long enough and it is time to get serious. As serious as gun control takes this and even more so. It is not a game and our lives do depend on it. But that's my opinion that we cannot win by doing this as a part time occasional pastime or have people who have no clue what they are doing in control.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Here is reality the antis are not losing as no country in the world has less restrictive gun legislation than it did 50 years ago. We do not even know how to win.

Virtually everything we have done so far is wrong.

It is a psychological thing. You do not go into battle to partially win or accept minor irrelevant success as good enough for now.

Either you fight to win or don't bother and in this fight nothing less will do. Which part of your arm are you willing to lose? Rights are no different. They cannot be subdivided, either you have them and value your rights or you don't.

I think we have been playing silly fools long enough and it is time to get serious. As serious as gun control takes this and even more so. It is not a game and our lives do depend on it. But that's my opinion that we cannot win by doing this as a part time occasional pastime or have people who have no clue what they are doing in control.
The antis are losing, don't confuse their arrogance with reality. Fact is, their emotional appeals were shoved right back down their throats the last try, Colorado just recalled a couple of idiots who went against the voters' will, and representatives are basically begging for permission to compromise. That is not anti gun victory, now, do we capitalize on the spineless nature of our reps, or do we let them regroup? That is the question we should ask, with more firearms being purchased than ever, and the anti gunners louder than ever, it's time to tell the reps we are taking the second amendment back. This cannot be done in one bite, because the current mess is over a century in the making, we take big bites when we can, get rid of idiotic legislation, THEN, we focus on the rest.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

The antis are losing, don't confuse their arrogance with reality. Fact is, their emotional appeals were shoved right back down their throats the last try, Colorado just recalled a couple of idiots who went against the voters' will, and representatives are basically begging for permission to compromise. That is not anti gun victory, now, do we capitalize on the spineless nature of our reps, or do we let them regroup? That is the question we should ask, with more firearms being purchased than ever, and the anti gunners louder than ever, it's time to tell the reps we are taking the second amendment back. This cannot be done in one bite, because the current mess is over a century in the making, we take big bites when we can, get rid of idiotic legislation, THEN, we focus on the rest.

I am not confused. Count the number of new laws and bills. Gun controls effort after Sandy Hook only failed because they did not move speedily enough. I doubt they will make that same mistake again. I admire gun control only for its lessons in tactics, strategy and success. Gun control has much to teach us and best we learn if we want to win. See Sun Tzu The Art of War.

Virtually all effort to counter gun control came from grass roots efforts and GOA. All others if they did anything was promoting guns and ammo sales, promoting gun ownership, selling and promoting services and advising on gun safety. We can win nothing with that except money in somebodies pocket.

The NRA sat on its bum for a week in silence and then slapped firearm owners rights in the face by acceptance and agreement with the schools gun free act. Not one word was said of the rights of teachers and parents to be armed. Instead the NRA proposed trained guards which the NRA conveniently had a training program for. Then it agreed with back ground checks. At no point in time did the NRA make a statement defending firearm owners rights which have been infringed or said one word of objection to disarmed teachers and parents. At no time did the NRA advise people to defend their rights or counter the inroads gun control was making with its scare tactics which nearly sunk this ship. At no time did the NRA or other organisation even realise what was happening and few if any made the slightest effort to mobilise firearm owners or even advise them on what to do. The majority of counter effort for Sandy Hook came from police departments and that is a very unreliable source of support.

Truckers get in on the act while firearm owners are still sitting on their bum pretending they have won.

We need to start examining things in the cold light of day not what we would like it to be or think it is. Fact gun control made huge leaps at the state and public level. And at the end of the day California, Britain, Australia, South Africa, Jamaica, Philippines... is a very good example of how useless firearm organisations really are.

We focus on winning and take what we can get. That way every step is a victory on the path to our goal. No final goal to work to no win. No step or intervention can be more important than the goal.

The fight stops only when we reach our goal, our objective, our reason for fighting. Gun control will not stop until citizens are safe from our guns. What are we fighting for? Ask a few firearm owners and see what you get. When will examine why we lose instead of thinking we are winning and start to win?

The truth is that if firearm organisations cannot win in California they cannot win the USA. Firearm organisations do not know how to win. They do not even know what kind of fight they are in and they have made no improvement in 200 years. Why is that?
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Gun Control is hittin' what yer aiming at!
simple as that!
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

That way every step is a victory on the path to our goal.
yah we know!

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Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I think anti-gunners are afraid which breeds hate and violence inevitably ensue which leads to the

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Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Does anyone ever change their minds about any issue based on discussions on internet forums?

I might be more open to gay marriage than I was before. I'm probably more neutral about it.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Yes, ALL the rest of the first-world democracies - including Switzerland and Israel - DO require registration...and they're all tyrannies, hm?

Again, if you want to restrict criminals and terrorists and psychopaths and sociopaths from getting guns, then you must have universal background checks. If you want to get gun trafficking and smuggling under control, then you must have gun registration...

...which is why ALL the first-world democracies have far lower homicide rates than America. But I forget - you don't care how many thousands of innocent men, women, and children die every single freaking year - you just want your toys.

Can you show us where registration by itself has made a significant difference in reducing crime, while not increasing the cost of gun ownership by much at all?
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I think anti-gunners are afraid which breeds hate and violence inevitably ensue which leads to the

The objective of propaganda is to get the subject (pawns) to invoke an emotional response when reminded or thinking of the target. In the case of gun control that emotional response is hate for guns and fear of injury and death.

The advocates of gun control will always argue from an emotional point of view and we will not understand why they will not budge when presented with truth and facts. We simply have no concept of what we are dealing with. People with a belief and driven by fear. We may as well be trying to convince a person who hates and fears snakes to buy some and release them in their garden or attend a snake petting zoo.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Can you show us where registration by itself has made a significant difference in reducing crime, while not increasing the cost of gun ownership by much at all?

Hmm lets see now. The OP is suggesting it is possible to control peoples action or thoughts by denying them objects. How well has that kind of thing worked in the past?

Alcohol - Everyone turned into upstanding sober law abiding citizens
Drugs - Not available anywhere, citizens are drug free and models of law abiding behaviour.
Pornography - Oh! well not that one either.
Religion - Hmm anyone see a pattern here.

Maybe Glen Contrarian can explain how gun control is going to achieve what he claims if the mechanism of functioning is reliance on a causal relationship he has failed to provide.

...which is why ALL the first-world democracies have far lower homicide rates than America. But I forget - you don't care how many thousands of innocent men, women, and children die every single freaking year - you just want your toys.

Which is an emotional argument for which the proof is not innocent people dying. You are going to have to provide a provable and verifiable reason that shows CAUSALITY. Can you do that please or we simply cannot take you seriously.
 
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Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Best explain yourself, I don't understand emotional vague useless responses that serve no purpose. What's your point, you a problem with comprehension? Firearm owners support gun control. There is no argument on that. How many do you know who want some form of gun control? One, a few, many?

The quickest way to lose a right is to deny it to others.

Perhaps those firearm owners advocating and supporting gun control need a rethink

You are basically a new poster to this area. I don't advocate denying constitutional rights to anyone. I was making a point that those who whine about gun rights and claim denying them to honest people somehow will make us safer and I noted (experienced and more rationally thinking posters all got this) if crime control was really the motivation of the gun banners, why don't they advocate for intrustions on other rights that would actually lead to greater incarceration rates or conviction rates of real criminals?

case in point-Yale University circa 1979- Pete Shields-Honcho for "I hate handguns Inc" (LKA the Brady bunch) was arguing for handgun bans. Kevin Brooks, an AA member of "the Party of the Right") pointed out that lawful gun owners were unlikely to cause crime-something like 1 out of a 100. He noted black males such as himself were 30-40 times more likely to engage in felonies and why wasn't Mr. Shields advocating prior restraint against AA males. Shields said "That would be unconstitutional" whereas Mr. Brooks said "BUT OF COURSE, but SINCE YOU WANT TO TRASH THE CONSTITUTION you might as well DO IT IN A WAY THAT IS MORE LIKELY TO REDUCE CRIME"

That student went on to be a writer for NR.

capiche?
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

thanks for admitting that you want registration. EVERY GROUP that wants to ban or restrict gun ownership wants registration.

that alone is grounds to oppose it. I don't care if its 20% likely to lead to confiscation or 30% or 40%. The fact that it helps facilitate confiscation is grounds enough to oppose it

That is not the real problem. Both of you are now arguing a point of making a valid suggestion work as the only problem. Is it?

What about the fact that nobody can show how these silly laws will work. Why will they work? What principle do they rely on for correct operation?

Did anyone show there was any evidence to support that? Why not, must we just believe these laws will work as advertised even if everything is done right?

The fact that nobody can show how and why these laws will work (UNJUSTIFIED) is OPPRESSIVE of a segment of society who are being punished for what they might do before the act. They are being prejudged as guilty and must be controlled.

Can any of these people we want to eliminate get a drivers licence? If yes why can they be trusted to drive on our roads but cannot own "legally" own a firearm? Why are there rights being infringed?

Which law in which country has been proven to reduced crime or increased citizens safety? How many laws have been passed in the last 150 years? Would anyone like to comment on the statistical significance of any one that may possibly be found? Let's say 1 in 100,000 seeing there are some 25,000 in the US alone.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

You are basically a new poster to this area. I don't advocate denying constitutional rights to anyone. I was making a point that those who whine about gun rights and claim denying them to honest people somehow will make us safer and I noted (experienced and more rationally thinking posters all got this) if crime control was really the motivation of the gun banners, why don't they advocate for intrustions on other rights that would actually lead to greater incarceration rates or conviction rates of real criminals?

case in point-Yale University circa 1979- Pete Shields-Honcho for "I hate handguns Inc" (LKA the Brady bunch) was arguing for handgun bans. Kevin Brooks, an AA member of "the Party of the Right") pointed out that lawful gun owners were unlikely to cause crime-something like 1 out of a 100. He noted black males such as himself were 30-40 times more likely to engage in felonies and why wasn't Mr. Shields advocating prior restraint against AA males. Shields said "That would be unconstitutional" whereas Mr. Brooks said "BUT OF COURSE, but SINCE YOU WANT TO TRASH THE CONSTITUTION you might as well DO IT IN A WAY THAT IS MORE LIKELY TO REDUCE CRIME"

That student went on to be a writer for NR.

capiche?

If you had taken the trouble to explain yourself better I may well have seen your point and why. However "what sort of nonsense is this?" must rank at the bottom of being useful.

New or not has nothing to do with this. Nor is what anyone else did or said of any interest to me, that does not make it right.

I was in fact having a go at the original poster and not your comments. Sorry for the confusion. Something that became only apparent after you went off on a tangent of defence that I had not made a clear distinction and used the wrong post to respond to.

I don't much care about the constitution since this only affirms our rights as instructions to government. I do very much care about our rights which are superior to the constitution and our responsibility to protect our rights. Something we don't bother much to do. Seems we let government do pretty much as it wants.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

"Liberty is always one generation away from extinction."
Well, then we can't be that generation, and need to insure it for the next one, who will take the torch and be responsible for the one after them.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I am not confused. Count the number of new laws and bills. Gun controls effort after Sandy Hook only failed because they did not move speedily enough. I doubt they will make that same mistake again. I admire gun control only for its lessons in tactics, strategy and success. Gun control has much to teach us and best we learn if we want to win. See Sun Tzu The Art of War.

Virtually all effort to counter gun control came from grass roots efforts and GOA. All others if they did anything was promoting guns and ammo sales, promoting gun ownership, selling and promoting services and advising on gun safety. We can win nothing with that except money in somebodies pocket.

The NRA sat on its bum for a week in silence and then slapped firearm owners rights in the face by acceptance and agreement with the schools gun free act. Not one word was said of the rights of teachers and parents to be armed. Instead the NRA proposed trained guards which the NRA conveniently had a training program for. Then it agreed with back ground checks. At no point in time did the NRA make a statement defending firearm owners rights which have been infringed or said one word of objection to disarmed teachers and parents. At no time did the NRA advise people to defend their rights or counter the inroads gun control was making with its scare tactics which nearly sunk this ship. At no time did the NRA or other organisation even realise what was happening and few if any made the slightest effort to mobilise firearm owners or even advise them on what to do. The majority of counter effort for Sandy Hook came from police departments and that is a very unreliable source of support.

Truckers get in on the act while firearm owners are still sitting on their bum pretending they have won.

We need to start examining things in the cold light of day not what we would like it to be or think it is. Fact gun control made huge leaps at the state and public level. And at the end of the day California, Britain, Australia, South Africa, Jamaica, Philippines... is a very good example of how useless firearm organisations really are.

We focus on winning and take what we can get. That way every step is a victory on the path to our goal. No final goal to work to no win. No step or intervention can be more important than the goal.

The fight stops only when we reach our goal, our objective, our reason for fighting. Gun control will not stop until citizens are safe from our guns. What are we fighting for? Ask a few firearm owners and see what you get. When will examine why we lose instead of thinking we are winning and start to win?

The truth is that if firearm organisations cannot win in California they cannot win the USA. Firearm organisations do not know how to win. They do not even know what kind of fight they are in and they have made no improvement in 200 years. Why is that?
Couple of things. 1) The "Sandy Hook" measures moved slowly because the anti gunners didn't have the votes, they had to try to whip up support which blew up in their faces. 2) Most of the new laws had to be either done in states with a weak and/or idiot voter base or by technicality like the EOs that Obama signed, most of which had no constitutional basis and were borderline criminal acts. IOW, the only "gains" the anti gun crowd can claim are small, insignificant, and ill gotten.
 
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