Who has had their mind changed on gun control?[W:232]

[CRUE CAB]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Problem is, you're apparently of the opinion that the only lessons we can learn from other nations are negative lessons, that other nations can't possibly teach us that there are some things that they do that are better than what we do. We've been on top since the worst wars in human history, and so we think that our way must be the best, that there's no positive lessons that other nations can teach us. The "American Way", "American exceptionalism" - what grand arrogance!

And that's one of the major things that felled Rome - they had been on top for so long that they didn't think anybody else had a better idea, a better way.

Restricting law abiding citizens the right to own firearms is not a "better way".

 

[reidster]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

But Benjamin Franklin never had to walk around in a nation where there were 300 million guns, that had the largest prison population - in terms of both total population and percentage thereof - in the world.

In other words, just because a great person makes a platitude doesn't mean that platitude is right.

No, he only witnessed the American Revolution... I'm sure that wasn't a very safe period in American history as well.

Would you be okay with a law passed to prevent cars from going over ten miles an hour? I'm not meaning to derail anything, I simply want a greater understanding of your philosophy on safety and freedom.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Not ours...but they're not fighting here. Obviously they can and have done in there, in the past and likely in the future. But Americans wouldn't fight a revolution over there, we would have to fight it in America. Our military cannot beat a group of lesser armed militia in a foreign country, what chance do you think they'd have once they have to level their guns at their own brothers and sisters? It would be even more difficult for our military to intervene in an American revolt than it would be to succeed in a foreign country. And when's the last time we did the latter?

About 1945, I believe.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

No, he only witnessed the American Revolution... I'm sure that wasn't a very safe period in American history as well.

Would you be okay with a law passed to prevent cars from going over ten miles an hour? I'm not meaning to derail anything, I simply want a greater understanding of your philosophy on safety and freedom.

1. The American Revolution was not anything like the war we have today.

2. If you must compare gun control laws to speed limits, your guys are arguing against speed limits at all. Is that a good thing? As it stands, with your side's insistence that there be no universal background checks, you're also ensuring that every sexual predator, ex-con, sociopath/psychopath (and other assorted mental cases and idiots), terrorist, and (in the case of Idaho) blind person can go in and legally buy whatever kind of gun they want.

Is that really protecting freedom? Or is it making our population ever more fearful? In America - and ONLY in America - do K-12 schools and colleges hold drills to prepare for a gunman walking around inside killing people. Is that freedom? That our kids have to worry about idiots - including their classmates - with guns, rather than worrying about their homework or studying for their tests?

Is that freedom? No.

In Australia one can have guns. One just can't have (among other things) .50 cal sniper rifles or assault rifles or handguns with extended clips like any terrorist or madman can buy legally here in America. This is called common sense - something that's gone out of style on the American Right.

It's like I said, once you walk around over there, you realize that you're not having to be on your guard 24/7 feels really, really good. One takes a nice, relaxing breath...and it's a breath of the kind of real freedom that we here in America have forgotten.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

No my views on gun control havent changed

what i have learned though is that i didnt know how many places and states violate this right. I was shocked and appalled to find out there are states that have laws against open carry? how is that even possible?! Its pathetic.

Anyway this is my feelings. Im all for gun control as long as it punishes the bad guys and criminals and it leaves me, a law abiding citizen alone. Bad guys and criminals do not care about laws so making legelsation on LEGAL purchases is just simply plain stupid.


Illegal gun sales, transportation, manufacturing, distribution, import/exporting is where all the laws need made at.
"Major" crimes committed while in possession of a fire arm should be bumped to a felony even if the firearm wasn't used (even-though its probably already the case)
felonies committed while in possession of a gun should have their penalties increased.
Background check im fine with and improving them is also a great idea as long as its just as fast as it is today. many many years ago mine took 15 minutes.

on the opposite side of that ALL STATES should be open carry period, theres no reason for them not to be and any CWP/LTCF should be nationally recognized like a drivers license.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Restricting law abiding citizens the right to own firearms is not a "better way".

Did you see me say anything about restricting the rights to firearms? No. Guy, I grew up with guns, too. Got my sharpshooter ribbon for the 9MM in the Navy (which is no big deal, especially since the Army and Marines train with firearms FAR more than we ever did).

"Stupid" is a word I rarely use, but it is STUPID to allow the general populace - including sexual predators, violent felons, psychopaths (and mental cases in general), and even terrorists - to legally buy whatever firearm they want when that also includes .50 cal sniper rifles, assault rifles, 30-round extended clips for pistols. How the heck one can call a sniper rifle with a range of over a mile a tool for "self-defense" I'll never understand.

THAT is what's stupid. Idiotic. Foolish in the extreme. "Hearing voices in your head? No problem! Got the solution right over here with this AR-15...."

I've got zero problems with a law-abiding person - after a universal background check - being able to buy a (non-automatic) rifle, shotgun, or handgun. And what y'all don't get is that this is how most LIBERALS feel. But when it comes to gun control, the American Right has gone off the deep end, off the edge of the map...and there, there be monsters.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

No my views on gun control havent changed

what i have learned though is that i didnt know how many places and states violate this right. I was shocked and appalled to find out there are states that have laws against open carry? how is that even possible?! Its pathetic.

Anyway this is my feelings. Im all for gun control as long as it punishes the bad guys and criminals and it leaves me, a law abiding citizen alone. Bad guys and criminals do not care about laws so making legelsation on LEGAL purchases is just simply plain stupid.


Illegal gun sales, transportation, manufacturing, distribution, import/exporting is where all the laws need made at.
"Major" crimes committed while in possession of a fire arm should be bumped to a felony even if the firearm wasn't used (even-though its probably already the case)
felonies committed while in possession of a gun should have their penalties increased.
Background check im fine with and improving them is also a great idea as long as its just as fast as it is today. many many years ago mine took 15 minutes.

on the opposite side of that ALL STATES should be open carry period, theres no reason for them not to be and any CWP/LTCF should be nationally recognized like a drivers license.

Look again at your quote: "Illegal gun sales, transportation, manufacturing, distribution, import/exporting is where all the laws need made at."

How do you suppose any such laws can be effectively enforced without not just universal background checks (which most of us (even most of those in the GOP)), but especially universal gun registration?

Here's a clue: they can't. Any such laws are toothless without universal gun registration as a tool to track who's selling/transporting/distributing what guns where. But the American Right is Absolutely Sure that universal gun registration automatically leads to tyranny...never mind the total lack of tyranny in the rest of the first-world democracies (including Switzerland and Israel) that DO have universal gun registration.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Did you see me say anything about restricting the rights to firearms? No. Guy, I grew up with guns, too. Got my sharpshooter ribbon for the 9MM in the Navy (which is no big deal, especially since the Army and Marines train with firearms FAR more than we ever did).

"Stupid" is a word I rarely use, but it is STUPID to allow the general populace - including sexual predators, violent felons, psychopaths (and mental cases in general), and even terrorists - to legally buy whatever firearm they want when that also includes .50 cal sniper rifles, assault rifles, 30-round extended clips for pistols. How the heck one can call a sniper rifle with a range of over a mile a tool for "self-defense" I'll never understand.

THAT is what's stupid. Idiotic. Foolish in the extreme. "Hearing voices in your head? No problem! Got the solution right over here with this AR-15...."

I've got zero problems with a law-abiding person - after a universal background check - being able to buy a (non-automatic) rifle, shotgun, or handgun. And what y'all don't get is that this is how most LIBERALS feel. But when it comes to gun control, the American Right has gone off the deep end, off the edge of the map...and there, there be monsters.

Who said anything about letting criminals buy guns? Not me.
Without the American Right, there would be no one here buying guns legally.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

1.)Look again at your quote: "Illegal gun sales, transportation, manufacturing, distribution, import/exporting is where all the laws need made at."
2.)How do you suppose any such laws can be effectively enforced without not just universal background checks (which most of us (even most of those in the GOP)), but especially universal gun registration?
3.) Here's a clue: they can't. Any such laws are toothless without universal gun registration as a tool to track who's selling/transporting/distributing what guns where. But the American Right is Absolutely Sure that universal gun registration automatically leads to tyranny...never mind the total lack of tyranny in the rest of the first-world democracies (including Switzerland and Israel) that DO have universal gun registration.

1.) yes i have said this many times and i understand it perfectly
2.) well thats easy actually, not just anybody can mass sell, produce and distribute all that needs licenses.
and in all the other threads i suggested registration at the manufacturing of guns to mass distributors but no further.
very easy solution. People are caught all the time do those things illegal for many many different items and services so obviously the tools are already in place you just make the punishment more harsh.
3.) factually false it already happens lol people are already busted for these crimes.

next?
next time maybe ask questions instead of assuming and being wrong, it will help

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Who said anything about letting criminals buy guns? Not me.
Without the American Right, there would be no one here buying guns legally.

But if you oppose universal background checks for all gun purchases, public or private or at gun shows, you're allowing criminals to legally purchase firearms.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

But if you oppose universal background checks for all gun purchases, public or private or at gun shows, you're allowing criminals to legally purchase firearms.

That is a fallacy.
And when was the last time someone was murdered with a .50 Barrett or McMillan?
You are buying into the hype that foaming at the mouth murderers are running the streets with ARs and 100 round mags.
And read that, mags. Not clips.

 

[reidster]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

1. The American Revolution was not anything like the war we have today.

2. If you must compare gun control laws to speed limits, your guys are arguing against speed limits at all. Is that a good thing? As it stands, with your side's insistence that there be no universal background checks, you're also ensuring that every sexual predator, ex-con, sociopath/psychopath (and other assorted mental cases and idiots), terrorist, and (in the case of Idaho) blind person can go in and legally buy whatever kind of gun they want.

Is that really protecting freedom? Or is it making our population ever more fearful? In America - and ONLY in America - do K-12 schools and colleges hold drills to prepare for a gunman walking around inside killing people. Is that freedom? That our kids have to worry about idiots - including their classmates - with guns, rather than worrying about their homework or studying for their tests?

Is that freedom? No.

In Australia one can have guns. One just can't have (among other things) .50 cal sniper rifles or assault rifles or handguns with extended clips like any terrorist or madman can buy legally here in America. This is called common sense - something that's gone out of style on the American Right.

It's like I said, once you walk around over there, you realize that you're not having to be on your guard 24/7 feels really, really good. One takes a nice, relaxing breath...and it's a breath of the kind of real freedom that we here in America have forgotten.

1. The American homefront was not nearly as peaceful as it is now... I'm explaining that the Founding Fathers did not live in a period where there was no such thing as danger. They knew full and well about the consequences of freedom.

2. Would you not answer the question? Evading is not a good thing to do when debating. If I feel that the government should outlaw driving over 10 mph, based on my feelings on safety and not worrying for myself, would you be okay with this being passed?

 

[HonestJoe]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Its a two sided argument. Either you accept and understand that civilians in this nation have a right to own a firearm. Or you wish to infringe on said right either by stricter laws or removing firearms from our society.
The more people like to muddy the water, the less gets done.

Well there are three "sides" in that statement straight away ("right to own", "stricter laws" or "removing firearms") and there is the status quo position too. The fact is that pretty much everyone (including yourself) accepts that there needs to be some form of restrictions on gun ownership and use. The complications are in establishing the specifics of those restrictions and the practical application of them.

The water is muddy whether we like it or not. I'd love there to be an easy answer to this question but that's no reason to engage in a fantasy that one does.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Did you see me say anything about restricting the rights to firearms? No. Guy, I grew up with guns, too. Got my sharpshooter ribbon for the 9MM in the Navy (which is no big deal, especially since the Army and Marines train with firearms FAR more than we ever did).

"Stupid" is a word I rarely use, but it is STUPID to allow the general populace - including sexual predators, violent felons, psychopaths (and mental cases in general), and even terrorists - to legally buy whatever firearm they want when that also includes .50 cal sniper rifles, assault rifles, 30-round extended clips for pistols. How the heck one can call a sniper rifle with a range of over a mile a tool for "self-defense" I'll never understand.

THAT is what's stupid. Idiotic. Foolish in the extreme. "Hearing voices in your head? No problem! Got the solution right over here with this AR-15...."

I've got zero problems with a law-abiding person - after a universal background check - being able to buy a (non-automatic) rifle, shotgun, or handgun. And what y'all don't get is that this is how most LIBERALS feel. But when it comes to gun control, the American Right has gone off the deep end, off the edge of the map...and there, there be monsters.

why does automatic cause you some much fear and trembling? Most liberals don't think about this topic. Lots of feeling, little thinking

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Look again at your quote: "Illegal gun sales, transportation, manufacturing, distribution, import/exporting is where all the laws need made at."

How do you suppose any such laws can be effectively enforced without not just universal background checks (which most of us (even most of those in the GOP)), but especially universal gun registration?

Here's a clue: they can't. Any such laws are toothless without universal gun registration as a tool to track who's selling/transporting/distributing what guns where. But the American Right is Absolutely Sure that universal gun registration automatically leads to tyranny...never mind the total lack of tyranny in the rest of the first-world democracies (including Switzerland and Israel) that DO have universal gun registration.

thanks for admitting that you want registration. EVERY GROUP that wants to ban or restrict gun ownership wants registration.

that alone is grounds to oppose it. I don't care if its 20% likely to lead to confiscation or 30% or 40%. The fact that it helps facilitate confiscation is grounds enough to oppose it

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

But if you oppose universal background checks for all gun purchases, public or private or at gun shows, you're allowing criminals to legally purchase firearms.

that is like saying if you believe that the government should prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, you are letting criminals escape justice.

you already admitted you cannot enforce those checks without registration.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

why does automatic cause you some much fear and trembling? Most liberals don't think about this topic. Lots of feeling, little thinking

Why don't you approach a policeman and ask him that question.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

thanks for admitting that you want registration. EVERY GROUP that wants to ban or restrict gun ownership wants registration.

that alone is grounds to oppose it. I don't care if its 20% likely to lead to confiscation or 30% or 40%. The fact that it helps facilitate confiscation is grounds enough to oppose it

Yes, ALL the rest of the first-world democracies - including Switzerland and Israel - DO require registration...and they're all tyrannies, hm?

Again, if you want to restrict criminals and terrorists and psychopaths and sociopaths from getting guns, then you must have universal background checks. If you want to get gun trafficking and smuggling under control, then you must have gun registration...

...which is why ALL the first-world democracies have far lower homicide rates than America. But I forget - you don't care how many thousands of innocent men, women, and children die every single freaking year - you just want your toys.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

that is like saying if you believe that the government should prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, you are letting criminals escape justice.

you already admitted you cannot enforce those checks without registration.

So tell me, guy, HOW do you suggest we keep sexual predators, felons, gang-bangers, terrorists, sociopaths, and assorted idiots from legally buying whatever guns they want?

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

So tell me, guy, HOW do you suggest we keep sexual predators, felons, gang-bangers, terrorists, sociopaths, and assorted idiots from legally buying whatever guns they want?

its already against the law. so they aren't buying them "legally" : hammer them when they do and are caught

making it harder for honest people to exercise their constitutional rights is not only a piss poor solution, it appears to be the ultimate goal for people like you and the rants about felons etc is a facade to conceal your true motivations.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Yes, ALL the rest of the first-world democracies - including Switzerland and Israel - DO require registration...and they're all tyrannies, hm?

Again, if you want to restrict criminals and terrorists and psychopaths and sociopaths from getting guns, then you must have universal background checks. If you want to get gun trafficking and smuggling under control, then you must have gun registration...

...which is why ALL the first-world democracies have far lower homicide rates than America. But I forget - you don't care how many thousands of innocent men, women, and children die every single freaking year - you just want your toys.

one of the least useful arguments is for leftwingers to cite leftwing solutions in eurosocialist nations as a solution to impose on us.

Why do we have so many drug users when you cannot legally buy narcotics without a prescription

Your rant about innocent children is the socialist "GODWIN" ploy. Few innocent children are killed every year through murder.

You want to make my rights subject to your emotobabbling hand wringing bed wetting caterwauling about "saving lives"

cut the crap. If capital murder sentences aren't going to deter scumbags, your silly registration laws aren't either but what they will do is lead to confiscation of legally owned guns.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Why don't you approach a policeman and ask him that question.

why should I ask someone who has less knowledge about the subject than I do

cops are often issued automatics (do you even understand what you are talking about) for use against criminals

why shouldn't I have access to the same tools

 

[Crimefree]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

that is like saying if you believe that the government should prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, you are letting criminals escape justice.

you already admitted you cannot enforce those checks without registration.

Good grief how is "criminal" being defined please? Criminals are locked up or have not been arrested yet. All citizens have the right to own arms. Where in the constitution is this restriction which is being demanded and why is it being demanded?

Who gave us permission to remove rights from others becasue some sick people are afraid of them?

Since there are many firearm owners who support such foolishness they had better not complain when gun control fears them and removes their rights. It is what they deserve and is only fair. What they going to get for being paranoid, inhuman, not bothering to think what they do. Gun control advocates should not bitch about what they support and it is pretty stupid to argue over how much gun control to support. That's like arguing about how pregnant you are.

The quickest way to lose a right is to deny it to others. Perhaps this needs a rethink.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Good grief how is "criminal" being defined please? Criminals are locked up or have not been arrested yet. All citizens have the right to own arms. Where in the constitution is this restriction which is being demanded and why is it being demanded?

Who gave us permission to remove rights from others becasue some sick people are afraid of them?

Since there are many firearm owners who support such foolishness they had better not complain when gun control fears them and removes their rights. It is what they deserve and is only fair. What they going to get for being paranoid, inhuman, not bothering to think what they do. Gun control advocates should not bitch about what they support and it is pretty stupid to argue over how much gun control to support. That's like arguing about how pregnant you are.

The quickest way to lose a right is to deny it to others. Perhaps this needs a rethink.

what sort of nonsense is this?

 

[LaMidRighter]

Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

one of the least useful arguments is for leftwingers to cite leftwing solutions in eurosocialist nations as a solution to impose on us.

Why do we have so many drug users when you cannot legally buy narcotics without a prescription

Your rant about innocent children is the socialist "GODWIN" ploy. Few innocent children are killed every year through murder.

You want to make my rights subject to your emotobabbling hand wringing bed wetting caterwauling about "saving lives"

cut the crap. If capital murder sentences aren't going to deter scumbags, your silly registration laws aren't either but what they will do is lead to confiscation of legally owned guns.

His entire arguments have been a false equivalency game. Just about every point has been "ask the police" which is an OLD and worn out argument from the nineties "police associations feel that..............", well, **** 'em, police opinions don't supercede the constitution. Then when the "ask the police" argument fails, go to public opinion(always based on biased and flawed polling of course). When that fails, say "I was there, I own too but..........", yeah, not buying it.

So then, claim that Europe is "much safer than the U.S." not even close to true, while Europe has a lower murder rate, theirs was never high to begin with, and actually increased post gun control, according to international data collection, INTERPOL, and F.B.I statistics, even better, their non-murder violence rate is around 25% higher than the U.S., violence without fatality is a much more probable crime against anyone than murder, but of course presenting the entire picture pretty much finishes off the "Europe is safer" argument.