Which in your opinion does more damage to this country?

[Gateman_Wen]

Or perhaps companies that do this?

View attachment 67385099

....or this?

View attachment 67385100

...or perhaps this?

View attachment 67385101

YOu're comparing solar and wind farms to striop mining?

 

[charliebrown]

Which in your opinion does more damage to this country, environmental groups like The Sierra Club, or the companies that do this?

Is it a lithium, cobalt, NIMH mine for one the the EV's being built?

 

[Geoist]

And re the wind farms alone - that's IF the companies do anything about recycling the land, which most do not because they've gone out of business as well:

View attachment 67385105View attachment 67385106

Have you ANY idea how many abandoned wind turbines there are in the US alone??

This attempt to compare wind farms to mountaintop mining is really REALLY stupid.

 

[EdwinWillers]

YOu're comparing solar and wind farms to striop mining?

This attempt to compare wind farms to mountaintop mining is really REALLY stupid.

Did neither of you actually bother to read the OP and the comparison he was making?

Spare me your snarks and lame insults.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You forgot to mention all the birds windmills kill.

Painting wind turbine blades BLACK can drastically reduce bird collision.
Also, some bird species, possibly a fairly significant number, are evolving and learning to avoid wind turbines altogether.

 

[longview]

I think I found where the photo came from.
Earth Justice Mountaintop Removal in West Virginia
But I am still not sure that is a coal mine, Strip mines remove the top of the Mountain to get to the coal,
so where the equipment is mining the coal would be exposed...and Black.
That said strip mining is bad for the environment in general.

 

[Lord of Planar]

You can't be serious. You are comparing solar and wind farms, to mountaintop removal mining, the single most environmentally destructive activity in American history. Do wind farms result entire mountains being blown up and the land scared for hundreds of millions of years?

Have you seen the environmental damge done to get the rare magnet material, lithium, cobalt, etc. for your Utopian dreams?

 

[Lord of Planar]

Here is a typical lithium mine:



Here is a cobalt mine:



Here is a neodymium mining site:

 

[Lord of Planar]

This attempt to compare wind farms to mountaintop mining is really REALLY stupid.

Mining doesn't kill raptors.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Holy cow. Hyperbole much?

Heck, I live around probably at least a hundred "permanent scars" on the land - gravel pit mines and the like - and all of them BY LAW are required to return the land to its native condition after operations cease - as is also the case with mining. We have hundreds of lakes and ponds now we didn't have before - such a travesty. smh.

Now, consider what happens to wind farms when they've outlived their usefulness - in about 20 or 30 years. 500+ cubic yards of buried concrete for every tower abandoned. Blades that cannot be recycled except very uneconomically. Steel towers that cannot be re-used. Did you realize some of the newer towers are all concrete? And what do you think happens to those steel towers in the ocean when they're obsolete?
Or do you realize just how much trash is generated by one solar farm? All those panels came to the site packaged in cardboard and wood and plastic and styrofoam. On one of the typical farms my company did, the cost to dispose of all that trash was over $600,000.

Sure, mining alters the permanent terrain - but as mentioned, current laws require the land to undergo restoration after cessation of operations.

"Blown up and scared for hundreds of millions of years" Good grief, how naive can someone get?

Don't forget all the rare metal magnets in the power generation designs, and the mining we do for lithgium, cobalt, etc. to use supposed green technologies.

 

[Lloyd Christmas]

You can't be serious. You are comparing solar and wind farms, to mountaintop removal mining, the single most environmentally destructive activity in American history. Do wind farms result entire mountains being blown up and the land scared for hundreds of millions of years?

Do you expect intelligence and anything but trolling from right wingers?

 

[mike2810]

Which in your opinion does more damage to this country, environmental groups like The Sierra Club, or the companies that do this?

Noted: in the OP all you did was ask the question and did not give your point of view on the thread. (just saying).

It is a poor comparison to look at what groups like the SC do compared to companies providing a product that eventually is used by consumers.
Does the SC provide any resources that the American public utilizes?

The real question to ask is what rehab plan is going to be required for the mining company to do when all the ore is removed?

Decades ago I went to a SC meeting that was going to discuss a Resource Management Plan out for public comment. The meeting was at a residential house. The house was redwood sided, had about two cords of pinyon firewood in the backyard. In discussing the plan the SC was leaning towards objecting to the RMP that identified some pinyon firewood harvesting areas. I asked where they felt one should get the pinyon firewood like they had stacked in their backyard? They had no real answer. I also told them I thought it was interesting they had a redwood sided house.

My point is conservation groups like to promote conservation. That can be a good thing. Many of their members also consume products that companies provide. There needs to be a balance between the two.

(Side note: When the SC and others were fighting in the Pacific Northwest over old growth forest logging to protect the spotted owl. One old logger asked a good question. Where did the spotted owl live before there was old growth? think about it.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Noted: in the OP all you did was ask the question and did not give your point of view on the thread. (just saying).

It is a poor comparison to look at what groups like the SC do compared to companies providing a product that eventually is used by consumers.
Does the SC provide any resources that the American public utilizes?

The real question to ask is what rehab plan is going to be required for the mining company to do when all the ore is removed?

Decades ago I went to a SC meeting that was going to discuss a Resource Management Plan out for public comment. The meeting was at a residential house. The house was redwood sided, had about two cords of pinyon firewood in the backyard. In discussing the plan the SC was leaning towards objecting to the RMP that identified some pinyon firewood harvesting areas. I asked where they felt one should get the pinyon firewood like they had stacked in their backyard? They had no real answer. I also told them I thought it was interesting they had a redwood sided house.

My point is conservation groups like to promote conservation. That can be a good thing. Many of their members also consume products that companies provide. There needs to be a balance between the two.

(Side note: When the SC and others were fighting in the Pacific Northwest over old growth forest logging to protect the spotted owl. One old logger asked a good question. Where did the spotted owl live before there was old growth? think about it.

Beyond that, do members of the Sierra Club use the energy from coal mining or not?

I see hypocrisy!

 

[mrjurrs]

It's totally a PR film - I admit. But there are literally scores of similar videos that aren't.

Look - I'm not going to press this argument any further. As I said, I'm all for reclamation efforts and ensuring mining companies carry out their legal obligations to reclaim lands after mining operations are completed.

And yes, mining does do damage to the ecosystem - HOWEVER - such damage isn't necessarily permanent and needn't be permanent. Proper reclamation efforts CAN and DO in many cases "fix" the damage done by mines.

But as another poster here noted as well - mines perform a much needed, necessary service to our economy too that we cannot dismiss. Let's just all work together to make sure it's done responsibly.

WE have nothing to do with it. THEY (the extraction companies) have no interest in reducing their profits to clean up after themselves.

 

[mike2810]

Beyond that, do members of the Sierra Club use the energy from coal mining or not?

I see hypocrisy!

yep. They also drive vehicles that use gas and have houses full of products made by some industry.

 

[Lord of Planar]

(Side note: When the SC and others were fighting in the Pacific Northwest over old growth forest logging to protect the spotted owl. One old logger asked a good question. Where did the spotted owl live before there was old growth? think about it.

They destroyed an entire green sustainable industry, and all those good paying family wage jobs, and when it was over... They discovered the spotted owl simply lived in the tallest of trees in the area. It didn't need to be old growth.

 

[multivita-man]

Which in your opinion does more damage to this country, environmental groups like The Sierra Club, or the companies that do this?

It depends. I know Sierra Club's heart is in the right place, but if, in the course of their private lives, they overconsume, then in one sense, they're just as much a part of the problem as the companies that strip the earth bare in an effort to keep up with their consumer demand.

 

[WIGDViking]

The mining takes place because raw materials are needed to produce the stuff people like you demand.

We have a lot of recyclable metal already above ground…

 

[WIGDViking]

Holy cow. Hyperbole much?

Heck, I live around probably at least a hundred "permanent scars" on the land - gravel pit mines and the like - and all of them BY LAW are required to return the land to its native condition after operations cease - as is also the case with mining. We have hundreds of lakes and ponds now we didn't have before - such a travesty. smh.

Now, consider what happens to wind farms when they've outlived their usefulness - in about 20 or 30 years. 500+ cubic yards of buried concrete for every tower abandoned. Blades that cannot be recycled except very uneconomically. Steel towers that cannot be re-used. Did you realize some of the newer towers are all concrete? And what do you think happens to those steel towers in the ocean when they're obsolete?
Or do you realize just how much trash is generated by one solar farm? All those panels came to the site packaged in cardboard and wood and plastic and styrofoam. On one of the typical farms my company did, the cost to dispose of all that trash was over $600,000.

Sure, mining alters the permanent terrain - but as mentioned, current laws require the land to undergo restoration after cessation of operations.

"Blown up and scared for hundreds of millions of years" Good grief, how naive can someone get?

You are so full of shit it’s a waste of my time to correct you as only a moron would would believe anything you say…

 

[WIGDViking]

Painting wind turbine blades BLACK can drastically reduce bird collision.
Also, some bird species, possibly a fairly significant number, are evolving and learning to avoid wind turbines altogether.

Also they study migration routs and do not put wind farms in the path of migrations.

I’m willing to bet more birds die from slamming into skyscraper windows than wind farms damage…

 

[ALiberalModerate]

(Side note: When the SC and others were fighting in the Pacific Northwest over old growth forest logging to protect the spotted owl. One old logger asked a good question. Where did the spotted owl live before there was old growth? think about it.

Old growth forests, which are forests that have never been logged, existed before birds and mammals, and long before the spotted owl evolved to live in old growth forests.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Have you seen the environmental damge done to get the rare magnet material, lithium, cobalt, etc. for your Utopian dreams?

There is no doubt that all mining results in environmental damage. The difference is that we have a much cleaner alternative to coal, natural gas.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Also they study migration routs and do not put wind farms in the path of migrations.

I’m willing to bet more birds die from slamming into skyscraper windows than wind farms damage…

Wind energy kills a tiny fraction of the birds that coal mining kills: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960148112000857

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Also they study migration routs and do not put wind farms in the path of migrations.

I’m willing to bet more birds die from slamming into skyscraper windows than wind farms damage…

It's true that birds and wind turbines aren't the best match and that significant bird deaths occur, but the overall point is, a lot of bird species are reacting to the danger and if we study this problem more carefully I have no doubt we will arrive at better ways to mitigate the damage. Nothing guarantees 100% results, but the fortunate thing in all of this is the fact that many bird species are in fact learning on their own.
And while simple evolution is nowhere near enough, our role in providing assistance is becoming clearer. We're already learning to paint the blades black, or other colors, and avian researchers are also looking into
finding out if certain sounds will help deter flocks from colliding with the blades.

We're not entirely helpless.

 

[WIGDViking]

Wind energy kills a tiny fraction of the birds that coal mining kills: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960148112000857

Not to mention all the trout streams they destroy…