Which in your opinion does more damage to this country?

[EdwinWillers]

It seems you hate birds.

I hate mockingbirds. Does that count?

Oh, I also hate crows and ravens.

I guess I do hate birds. smh

 

[Lord of Planar]

This is pure unadulterated bullcrap. 8.9 million birds killed by coal mining? How? How in the world are that many birds being killed each year by coal mines?

See my post #72. The number of birds that died in open PVC pipes could add up to millions a year. The article said most places doing this had an average of one bird dead per pipe, and I think as many as 28. Another area had an average of 2 per pipe. Marker posts would number in the thousands across the USA.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

What about the cobalt mined to make the batteries for your Tesla?
What's the effect of cobalt mining on the environment and humans?
Especially in places like the DRC (china-owned mines). It seems you hate blacks and love Chicoms.
That's how the argument goes ... right?
BTW, the pic in your thread op looks a lot like what a cobalt mining operation looks like.

We don't have a substitute for cobalt. Thus cobalt mining will be a necessary evil to supply every industry that needs it.

In contrast, we are nation that is awash in natural gas. So why in the world are you in favor of mountaintop removal coal mining when we have a cheap, clean and abundant alternative with natural gas?

 

[ALiberalModerate]

LOL you use a silly blog to justify your horrific beliefs?

It's clear you truly hate birds and humans too.

A usnews blog that quoted peer reviewed science. Why do you hate natural gas so much?

 

[Lord of Planar]

We don't have a substitute for cobalt. Thus cobalt mining will be a necessary evil to supply every industry that needs it.

In contrast, we are nation that is awash in natural gas. So why in the world are you in favor of mountaintop removal coal mining when we have a cheap, clean and abundant alternative with natural gas?

We have moved away from using coal at a pretty good rate. Thinks don't happen overnight. Please don't be impatient. It will happen.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Precisely.

The POS story is a concocted amalgam of hastily gathered "data" by some urinalist sitting at this computer, quaffing energy drinks and munching on Hot Pockets.

Moreover, the story (more like "tale") itself concedes the information gathered lacks consistent agreement from all concerned as to what constitutes relevant data. Plus - read it once and then you're denied access to the story again. Classy.

But you gotta absolutely love this fabricated metric: # of birds killed per gigawatt hour of energy produced. (Someone has waaaay too much time on their hands).

This is pure unadulterated bullcrap. 8.9 million birds killed by coal mining? How? How in the world are that many birds being killed each year by coal mines? We're not told of course - for THAT would actually be news. What kind of birds were they? Native dwellers or migratory birds? How were they killed? Poisoning their water supply? Perhaps (we're not told). Destroying their environment? Maybe (we're not told). That many birds lived in areas that are now coal mines? Who counted them? How? Birds in my area that lived in areas relegated to other uses did the obvious - they flew next door.

How do you blow up entire mountains in the most diverse temperate ecosystem on earth without killing millions of birds?

 

[bubbabgone]

We don't have a substitute for cobalt. Thus cobalt mining will be a necessary evil to supply every industry that needs it.

In contrast, we are nation that is awash in natural gas. So why in the world are you in favor of mountaintop removal coal mining when we have a cheap, clean and abundant alternative with natural gas?

Why do you hate blacks and love Chicoms?

 

[Lord of Planar]

A usnews blog that quoted peer reviewed science. Why do you hate natural gas so much?

Please show us the parts of the papers they accurately represented. I didn't see such accuracy. Did you read the papers?

What is it with people today? Why are people so willing to trust the media? The media is no longer known for truth and accuracy.

 

[EdwinWillers]

See my post #72. The number of birds that died in open PVC pipes could add up to millions a year. The article said most places doing this had an average of one bird dead per pipe, and I think as many as 28. Another area had an average of 2 per pipe. Marker posts would number in the thousands across the USA.

In that vein, there's also this - which suggests that if we're really that concerned about birds, we need to get rid of our cats and windows:


Source (I didn't do a thorough background check on this source, but given the nature of the OP's "data", that doesn't seem to be a concern)

 

[PoS]

A usnews blog that quoted peer reviewed science. Why do you hate natural gas so much?

Show the links to the actual "peer-reviewed" studies that you claim exists then.

Why do you hate people and birds?

 

[EdwinWillers]

How do you blow up entire mountains in the most diverse temperate ecosystem on earth without killing millions of birds?

Hey, you made the claim - and you made it very specific; I asked the question 'how?' Responding by asking a hypothetical possibility (which btw, I acknowledged that mining could be harmful to fowl) is on the same level of a BS response as the article you cited. No, not playing that game - the onus is on you to provide the answer.

Why do you hate truth?

 

[EdwinWillers]

In that vein, there's also this - which suggests that if we're really that concerned about birds, we need to get rid of our cats and windows:

View attachment 67385383
Source (I didn't do a thorough background check on this source, but given the nature of the OP's "data", that doesn't seem to be a concern)

In addition to the source above, there are these sources for leading causes of bird deaths in North America (all of which basically back up the above):

Loading…

www.cbc.ca

Did You Know - Cats Leading Cause of Bird Deaths in North America

Cats leading cause of bird deaths in North America. A plan for complete success in stopping this carnage is offered here. Keep cats and birds safe.

www.wildbirdscoop.com

Bird deaths: misleading numbers conceal the biggest culprits

A Facebook post misleadingly suggests that wind farms kill many more birds than oil companies, but escape any monetary penalties. However, oil companies are responsible for higher bird death rates overall, and US wind farm companies have had to pay fines for their impact on bird populations...

factcheck.afp.com

Hundreds of Millions of Birds Killed Annually from Building Collisions

Certain species are at greater risk, new study finds.

www.audubon.org

Threats to Birds | U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service

What Are the Threats to Birds?

www.fws.gov

Consistently the leading cause of bird deaths? Cats.
Next leading cause of bird deaths? Buildings / windows
Wind turbines make it about halfway down each list

But you know what's not listed in any of these sources? Coal Mines. Go figure.

 

[PoS]

A usnews blog that quoted peer reviewed science. Why do you hate natural gas so much?

Show the links to the study or admit you lied.

 

[Lord of Planar]

In addition to the source above, there are these sources for leading causes of bird deaths in North America (all of which basically back up the above):

Loading…

www.cbc.ca

Did You Know - Cats Leading Cause of Bird Deaths in North America

Cats leading cause of bird deaths in North America. A plan for complete success in stopping this carnage is offered here. Keep cats and birds safe.

www.wildbirdscoop.com

Bird deaths: misleading numbers conceal the biggest culprits

A Facebook post misleadingly suggests that wind farms kill many more birds than oil companies, but escape any monetary penalties. However, oil companies are responsible for higher bird death rates overall, and US wind farm companies have had to pay fines for their impact on bird populations...

factcheck.afp.com

Hundreds of Millions of Birds Killed Annually from Building Collisions

Certain species are at greater risk, new study finds.

www.audubon.org

Threats to Birds | U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service

What Are the Threats to Birds?

www.fws.gov

Consistently the leading cause of bird deaths? Cats.
Next leading cause of bird deaths? Buildings / windows
Wind turbines make it about halfway down each list

But you know what's not listed in any of these sources? Coal Mines. Go figure.

My God man. Do you ignore the relevant information said?

Common birds are part of the food chain. They are numerous and this isn't a concern.

Why don't I see any of you bird haters talking about the less common birds. The Raptors, some of which are on the endangered species list?

Do birds kill raptors? A raptor may kill a cat, but you will not see it the other way around unless it is a cougar, or other large carnivore.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Consider this:

The real death toll, as reported by Paul Driessen and others, is thousands of raptors a year – and up to 39 million birds and bats of all species annually in the United States alone, year after year! This is intolerable, and unsustainable. It is leading to the inevitable extinction of many species, at least in many habitats, and perhaps in the entire Lower 48 States.​

Wind turbines kill up to 39 million birds a year! - CFACT

Not only has the wind industry never solved its environmental problem, it has been hiding at least 90% of this slaughter for decades. In fact, the universal problem of hiding bird (and bat) mortality goes from bad to intolerable beyond the Altamont Pass boundaries, because studies in other areas...

www.cfact.org

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Show the links to the study or admit you lied.

It's a published study, mountaintop removal coal mining quite literally kills an order of magnitude more birds than windmills. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960148112000857

Moreover, this is simply common sense. Mountaintop removal mining destroys entire ecosystems. Any idiot could see that the negative environmental impacts of blowing up a mountain far exceed that of a wind farm, or any other form of energy for that matter. We could quite literally have a Chernobyl level nuclear event every year and it still would not be as environmentally damaging as coal.

Environmental impacts of coal

www.gem.wiki

Coal Burning, Fossil Fuels, Pollution - National Geographic

Coal is plentiful and polluting. Can an energy-hungry world afford to wait for this fuel to clean up?

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[VySky]

The answer is obvious to anyone that cares about their children's future more than their own.

Why not let the children make decisions for themselves? How do you think EV is going to work? It’s an environmental assault to make and dispose batteries

An alternative always comes with a price tag. That’s why deep pockets await payment foremost. What is best or right need not apply.

 

[mrjurrs]

Why not let the children make decisions for themselves? How do you think EV is going to work? It’s an environmental assault to make and dispose batteries

An alternative always comes with a price tag. That’s why deep pockets await payment foremost. What is best or right need not apply.

We know what the result of continued fossil fuel use looks like. We don't know what electricity production, storage, or composition will be in 5 years, much less 30.

 

[longview]

We know what the result of continued fossil fuel use looks like. We don't know what electricity production, storage, or composition will be in 5 years, much less 30.

We also know that continued use of oil as a source for fuels, is not viable, if everyone alive wants to live a first world lifestyle!
Oil will price itself from the market.

 

[PoS]

It's a published study, mountaintop removal coal mining quite literally kills an order of magnitude more birds than windmills. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960148112000857

Moreover, this is simply common sense. Mountaintop removal mining destroys entire ecosystems. Any idiot could see that the negative environmental impacts of blowing up a mountain far exceed that of a wind farm, or any other form of energy for that matter. We could quite literally have a Chernobyl level nuclear event every year and it still would not be as environmentally damaging as coal.

Environmental impacts of coal

www.gem.wiki

Coal Burning, Fossil Fuels, Pollution - National Geographic

Coal is plentiful and polluting. Can an energy-hungry world afford to wait for this fuel to clean up?

www.nationalgeographic.com

The abstract itself explains there's plenty of uncertainties and its all based on estimates.

Therefore its poor research and offers no definitive proof whatsoever.

Im not even gonna address your other links since theyre just blogs, and I dont support coal use.

 

[Fishking]

You can't be serious. You are comparing solar and wind farms, to mountaintop removal mining, the single most environmentally destructive activity in American history. Do wind farms result entire mountains being blown up and the land scared for hundreds of millions of years?

A lot of those alternative energy sources rely on batteries. You know what a lithium mine looks like?

 

[mrjurrs]

We also know that continued use of oil as a source for fuels, is not viable, if everyone alive wants to live a first world lifestyle!
Oil will price itself from the market.

Everyone doesn't lead a first world lifestyle, more and more people are not every day. I've got mine...

Sheesh

 

[ALiberalModerate]

A lot of those alternative energy sources rely on batteries. You know what a lithium mine looks like?
View attachment 67385764

We do not have an alternative to lithium right now. Do you not want to have a cell phone?

However, we have an alternative to coal, that is natural gas. We are a nation that is abundant in natural gas. So why blow mountains up to get coal when we have a cheap and clean alternative with natural gas?

 

[Fishking]

We do not have an alternative to lithium right now. Do you not want to have a cell phone?

However, we have an alternative to coal, that is natural gas. We are a nation that is abundant in natural gas. So why blow mountains up to get coal when we have a cheap and clean alternative with natural gas?

So I guess you don't actually care about what you purported to care about in your OP.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

So I guess you don't actually care about what you purported to care about in your OP.

Of course I do. I am merely practical. Human existence in the modern world requires us to mine for raw materials, farm, harvest timber and other activities that can have negative impact on the environment. However, it is also incumbent upon us to minimize our impacts whenever possible by not engaging in environmentally damaging activities when there are better choices available.

There simply is no alternative to mining lithium right now. Even if there were not a single EV on the road, we would still need lithium mines for the batteries in smartphones, powertools and so on. There is no way around that. Thankfully, under no scenario will we ever have to mine lithium at even a fraction of the scale that we have mined coal at.

In regards to coal, we are currently blowing up entire mountains to get to it. In fact, mountaintop removal coal mining is the single greatest environmentally damaging activity we have ever engaged in, in this country. From an environmental perspective, nothing we do even remotely compares to it. Indeed, the worst environmental disasters in our country's history are not oil spills or nuclear accidents, but rather they are all related to coal mining. A single coal slurry spill in East Tennessee did far more damage to the environment than even the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill did to Alaska.

What makes it particularly bad, is that it is largely needless. We are a nation that is blessed with hundreds of years worth of natural gas. An energy source whose extraction has but a tiny fraction of the environmental impacts of coal mining. So why are you for blowing up mountains to get more coal?