When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a customer? (1 Viewer)

[Moderate Right]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Given that many, maybe most, Americans have significant choice, what is the real economic harm when diner A refuses to serve you if you can go to diners B, C or D? I'll grant if they were all to refuse to serve you that becomes an issue but is that really likely?

The modern means I'm talking about, and what I think makes private action possible, is the speed and breath of modern telecommunications. How hard is it really to let all your friends and neighbors know that someone refuses to serve gay people? In answer to why people, like me presumably, don't use those means to show how unnecessary PA laws are - well I've been lucky enough to have never been subject to any discrimination so why would I? If no one's discriminating against me why am I going to tell all my friends to boycott them? Should one of my gay or black friends or acquaintances point out that they were discriminated against by a restaurant/bar/whatever I would stop going there.

It might be more likely than you think. Just fifty years ago many places would not serve blacks. We don't want to go back to the dark ages.

 

[roguenuke]

Given that many, maybe most, Americans have significant choice, what is the real economic harm when diner A refuses to serve you if you can go to diners B, C or D? I'll grant if they were all to refuse to serve you that becomes an issue but is that really likely?

The modern means I'm talking about, and what I think makes private action possible, is the speed and breath of modern telecommunications. How hard is it really to let all your friends and neighbors know that someone refuses to serve gay people? In answer to why people, like me presumably, don't use those means to show how unnecessary PA laws are - well I've been lucky enough to have never been subject to any discrimination so why would I? If no one's discriminating against me why am I going to tell all my friends to boycott them? Should one of my gay or black friends or acquaintances point out that they were discriminated against by a restaurant/bar/whatever I would stop going there.

Because you assume that there is choice where there might not be, especially for specialty items. This is especially true in some areas of the country. Wyoming, Nevada, New Mexico, to name a few.

As for modern information technology, it's flawed in how much info we receive. What prevents a company from disputing your claim publicly? You might get your friends and family to not shop there, but even with our tech it doesn't mean everyone would without evidence. Would you believe some random person who claimed they were denied service somewhere without evidence?

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[AGENT J]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

1.)Given that many, maybe most, Americans have significant choice, what is the real economic harm when diner A refuses to serve you if you can go to diners B, C or D? I'll grant if they were all to refuse to serve you that becomes an issue but is that really likely?

2.) The modern means I'm talking about, and what I think makes private action possible, is the speed and breath of modern telecommunications. How hard is it really to let all your friends and neighbors know that someone refuses to serve gay people? In answer to why people, like me presumably, don't use those means to show how unnecessary PA laws are - well I've been lucky enough to have never been subject to any discrimination so why would I? If no one's discriminating against me why am I going to tell all my friends to boycott them? Should one of my gay or black friends or acquaintances point out that they were discriminated against by a restaurant/bar/whatever I would stop going there.

1.) yeah who cares about peoples RIGHTS if "you" feel its ok and no big deal. Cracks me up how little rights mean to some people based on thier own feelings and not actual reality laws and rights. Where else can we apply this logic? can we violate other rights because "you" or others think its no big deal?

2.) again how does that make it ok to violate rights because you can tell others. There are many places in this country where that would have ZERO impact and might GAIN them customers.

Its admirable that YOU would do that right thing but to even think this is how it would be everywhere or even in the vast majority of places is not reality.

the people that had their rights violated, **** em' lets just go by the "feelings" of the person working the business and let them break the law.

reminds me of a recent rape case (no im not comparing rape to illegal discrimination) just the insane retarded concept that the business owners feelings should be taken over the law and peoples rights and his crime should be ignored.)

 

[Gaius46]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

1.) yeah who cares about peoples RIGHTS if "you" feel its ok and no big deal. Cracks me up how little rights mean to some people based on thier own feelings and not actual reality laws and rights. Where else can we apply this logic? can we violate other rights because "you" or others think its no big deal?

2.) again how does that make it ok to violate rights because you can tell others. There are many places in this country where that would have ZERO impact and might GAIN them customers.

Its admirable that YOU would do that right thing but to even think this is how it would be everywhere or even in the vast majority of places is not reality.

the people that had their rights violated, **** em' lets just go by the "feelings" of the person working the business and let them break the law.

reminds me of a recent rape case (no im not comparing rape to illegal discrimination) just the insane retarded concept that the business owners feelings should be taken over the law and peoples rights and his crime should be ignored.)

Once the law is in place is has to be followed and the business owner's feelings are not relevant. But we're not talking about that. Or at least I'm not. Im talking about whether those laws still have any relevance or whether there are other ways to deal with discrimination.

 

[Gaius46]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Because you assume that there is choice where there might not be, especially for specialty items. This is especially true in some areas of the country. Wyoming, Nevada, New Mexico, to name a few.

As for modern information technology, it's flawed in how much info we receive. What prevents a company from disputing your claim publicly? You might get your friends and family to not shop there, but even with our tech it doesn't mean everyone would without evidence. Would you believe some random person who claimed they were denied service somewhere without evidence?

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Maybe you didn't see my earlier comments but I've stated that Public accommodation laws make sense in places where there isn't a lot of choice.

 

[_Sal]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Anytime they want, for any reason. I realize that isn't the current law but the question asked about what the law SHOULD be.

While I do think such laws were justified in the past, I think we have progressed enough that they are no longer necessary. In today's internet world public shaming is usually enough.

A Christian bakery should be able to refuse gay clients. A restaurant should be able to refuse to serve Trump supporters. A believer should be able to refuse to serve me because I am an atheist. This does not apply to government institutions and public services.

With some exceptions, public accommodation laws should be repealed. Those exceptions apply to businesses that provide essential services in areas in which there are no or few alternatives.

actually, I like this so far

should a club or business be able to refuse me because I am female?

 

[AGENT J]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

1.)Once the law is in place is has to be followed and the business owner's feelings are not relevant. But we're not talking about that. Or at least I'm not.
2.) Im talking about whether those laws still have any relevance or whether there are other ways to deal with discrimination.

1.) correct, thier feelings are not relevant
2.) well unless peoples rights magically disappear they will always be relevant. If rape or theft etc goes down to like 5% change of it ever happening to you would you support ignoring your rights, let others infring on them and just ignoring the law. Or as you say, consider just making theft, robbery or rape legal since in your opinion it would happen so little, or you could just tell people about it?

Those laws are still 100% relvant because they protect our rights, the solution to people dealing with illegal discrimination is simply to not do it . . like theft robbery rape etc etc

Again i simply have no understanding why peoples rights mean so little to you and you think they should be allowed to be violated, explain it to me. Whats your personal view on it. WHy do you value rights so little in this case?

 

[roguenuke]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Maybe you didn't see my earlier comments but I've stated that Public accommodation laws make sense in places where there isn't a lot of choice.

But where does that line work, stop? If the couple is mixed race, mixed religion, same sex couple and the three stores in town all discriminate on one and only one different thing, each of which apply to the couple, which business has to serve them?


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[sangha]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Given that many, maybe most, Americans have significant choice, what is the real economic harm when diner A refuses to serve you if you can go to diners B, C or D? I'll grant if they were all to refuse to serve you that becomes an issue but is that really likely?

Here's an example of the sort of harm to commerce that can result from allowing discrimination

I am a (mostly silent) partner in a business that imports a food product in large quantities, repackages it into smaller containers, and sell it to a variety of customers (ex restaurants, distributors, bakeries, etc) who use my products to produce products of their own. Our clients are located in several states (NY, NJ, CT, PA) and we run trucks to deliver the product to them. Our drivers have various ethnicities, races, genders, sexual orientations, religions, etc.

Let's say one of our drivers is out on a route when the truck breaks down. What if the local repair shop doesn't want to serve them due to some issue relating to their identity? What if the area is rife with such people? My drivers can't get their trucks repaired, they can't get dinner, a hotel room, etc? Do I just stop selling to people who live in that area and any place that requires my drivers to pass through those areas for fear they will not get service if they break down?

If so, then not only does my business suffer, but so does the business of my clients who depend on access to my product (in some cases, we're the only supplier in the Northeast) to make their products

Making laws which promote commerce is a legitimate exercise of government power that predates the govt's power to protect rights. Our political representatives, elected to office by "We, the People", have determined that discrimination is a big enough hindrance to commerce and the social order to warrant legislation. You may not think it's a big deal, but in a democracy such as ours, your individual opinion is outweighed by a large majority. Your opinion about the weightiness of this issue does not determine whether or not our govt takes action on the issue.

The modern means I'm talking about, and what I think makes private action possible, is the speed and breath of modern telecommunications. How hard is it really to let all your friends and neighbors know that someone refuses to serve gay people? In answer to why people, like me presumably, don't use those means to show how unnecessary PA laws are - well I've been lucky enough to have never been subject to any discrimination so why would I? If no one's discriminating against me why am I going to tell all my friends to boycott them? Should one of my gay or black friends or acquaintances point out that they were discriminated against by a restaurant/bar/whatever I would stop going there.

And yet, in spite of this speedy means of communications, some public accommodations not only continue to discriminate, but also gain widespread support for doing so proving that these communications do not eliminate the need for these laws.

 

[Henrin]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

actually, I like this so far

should a club or business be able to refuse me because I am female?

Why not? Is there a reason that a business or club shouldn't be allowed to male or female only?

 

[_Sal]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Why not? Is there a reason that a business or club shouldn't be allowed to male or female only?

don't know which is why I am asking questions

sangha has just made some excellent points and I was leaning one way but due to his post I have now changed direction

 

[Henrin]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

don't know which is why I am asking questions

sangha has just made some excellent points and I was leaning one way but due to his post I have now changed direction

He needs to plan for those kind of matters, so no, it's hardly a good point. Just because your life is harder because not everyone might agree with doing business with you doesn't somehow grant you a right to anything.

 

[_Sal]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

He needs to plan for those kind of matters, so no, it's hardly a good point.

you need to plan for extreme discrimination?

 

[Henrin]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

you need to plan for extreme discrimination?

Why does extreme discrimination grant him some kind of right to the service of others? Why is his responsibility as a business owner to plan for things somehow moot because something unexpected might happen?

 

[AGENT J]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Why does extreme discrimination grant him some kind of right to the service of others? Why is his responsibility as a business owner to plan for things somehow moot because something unexpected might happen?

Who here even HINTED at the idea that people have the right to service? oh thats right NOBODY. its the same old tired lie and strawman you always try to sell that gets destroyed everysing time by facts. LMAO
Disagree, quote the person that said there is a right to service
opcorn2:

 

[_Sal]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Why does extreme discrimination grant him some kind of right to the service of others? Why is his responsibility as a business owner to plan for things somehow moot because something unexpected might happen?

you think it's a person's right to discriminate based on sex, colour, race etc and thus refuse to do business with another human being

given that...please explain further your two questions...I don't know what you are asking me

 

[Henrin]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Who here even HINTED at the idea that people have the right to service? oh thats right NOBODY. its the same old tired lie and strawman you always try to sell that gets destroyed everysing time by facts. LMAO
Disagree, quote the person that said there is a right to service
opcorn2:

I'm too tired to deal with your crap. All I will say is that the state being on your side when you sue for denial of service due to discrimination is in fact the state making a statement that they believe you have a right to be served.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

1.)I'm too tired to deal with your crap.
2.) All I will say is that the state being on your side when you sue for denial of service due to discrimination is in fact the state making a statement that they believe you have a right to be served.

Thats what I thought, NOBODY said that . . .

1.) translation: you got caught posting a failed straw man AGAIN and you are running from that fact. Facts always seem to make you tired.
2.) 100% wrong and one of the most retarded lies you try to push and always fail.
there's already court cases about them and ZERO% say anything about the right to be served :laughat:
why do you post lies that are so easily destroyed?

there is 100% factually no right to be served nor does anybody here claim that. its a lie you got caught posting and has NOTHING to do with this topic.:2wave:

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

actually, I like this so far

should a club or business be able to refuse me because I am female?

Yes. And me because I'm male. Actually, I think clubs are allowed to do that now.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Yes. And me because I'm male. Actually, I think clubs are allowed to do that now.

Yes private clubs can and that is fine and legal.
but like it was brought up earlier, membership and private club are exclusively the same thing just an FYI.

This is why theres no force where a super vast minority claim there is.

 

[chromium]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

according to "RFRA" it should only be when the customer is a despised and constantly ****ted on minority

 

[Milo]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I say only the times when it bothers other people, meaning you smell or is rude.

I don't want a society where people discriminate against eachother for whatever reason.

 

[Gaius46]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

1.) correct, thier feelings are not relevant
2.) well unless peoples rights magically disappear they will always be relevant. If rape or theft etc goes down to like 5% change of it ever happening to you would you support ignoring your rights, let others infring on them and just ignoring the law. Or as you say, consider just making theft, robbery or rape legal since in your opinion it would happen so little, or you could just tell people about it?

Those laws are still 100% relvant because they protect our rights, the solution to people dealing with illegal discrimination is simply to not do it . . like theft robbery rape etc etc

Again i simply have no understanding why peoples rights mean so little to you and you think they should be allowed to be violated, explain it to me. Whats your personal view on it. WHy do you value rights so little in this case?

People's rights mean EVERYTHING to me. A person's right to decide who he wants to do business with and how he wants to use his personal property matters to me - it seemingly doesn't matter to you though.

In 1964 we created a new set of rights with the Civil Rights Act that said people have a right to housing and public accomodations that cannot be denied because of race, sex, age etc. It can be denied for other things - for example if I judge a person unable to pay I can legally not rent him an apartment so wealth discrimination is still legal.

The difference between you and I is that I believe it unnecessary to infringe on property rights in many cases to achieve the goals set out in the Civil Rights Act. I'd rather not infringe on people's rights if at all possible, though again I grant that there are cases where it's going to be necessary - as when dealing with a de facto monopoly.

 

[Gaius46]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

But where does that line work, stop? If the couple is mixed race, mixed religion, same sex couple and the three stores in town all discriminate on one and only one different thing, each of which apply to the couple, which business has to serve them?


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That's a good question and I'm not sure where the line gets drawn. Certainly if there's only one bakery in town it has to serve everyone. Same if there's 3 and all discriminate. If there are 100 and 1 discriminates I don't see what harm is being done. How that plays out in the real world I'll admit to not having given a whole lot of thought to.

 

[_Sal]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

That's a good question and I'm not sure where the line gets drawn. Certainly if there's only one bakery in town it has to serve everyone. Same if there's 3 and all discriminate. If there are 100 and 1 discriminates I don't see what harm is being done. How that plays out in the real world I'll admit to not having given a whole lot of thought to.

which has been pointed out by others in this thread

which basically leads back to relying upon the goodness of the business owner to survive especially when things devolve which essentially in many situations could place people in life and death situations

it's like going back to a first world situation which could happen rapidly when we begin to lose our social construct