What measures do you think the United States should take in response to Russian expansionism in Europe?

[The Mark]

How do you know he is that way?

Because the M$Ms tell you?

Have you ever been around lots of Ukrainian or Russian people? It appears you only know the propaganda. \

Why does the left want to continue to poke the bear, when we already defeated them in the early 90's?

Why do we need a villain?

Much of what I see reminds me of the movie "Canadian Bacon."

Watch Canadian Bacon | Prime Video

Faced with sagging approval ratings, the U.S. President (Alan Alda) is advised to start a new Cold War with Canada. When a sheriff (John Candy) decides to lead an invasion from Niagara Falls into Canada, it turns into an international incident.

www.amazon.com

The cold war is over, military contractors are scaling back, the presidents numbers are tanking. So... They create an enemy. Funny thing is, the Russians don't want to play. They like it that the war is over.

Maybe you can explain why how what Russia is doing, is any differenbt that things the USA and other first world nations have done?

If Russia/Putin didn't want NATO expansion, they shouldn't have invaded Ukraine. Because they just damn near guaranteed NATO expansion.
Maybe they figured it was inevitable and no diplomatic means were feasible, so they should grab what area they could before it was too late, to ensure a buffer zone or something. That's the best case I can see here, and it isn't a good case for a positive view of Russia IMO.

 

[cpwill]

If Russia/Putin didn't want NATO expansion, they shouldn't have invaded Ukraine. Because they just damn near guaranteed NATO expansion.

That was the point I thought should have been hammered home prior to the invasion, instead of going on about economic consequences. Putin isn't worried about money currency, he cares about power, and the expansion of Russian power. Threaten that, instead.

 

[The Mark]

That was the point I thought should have been hammered home prior to the invasion, instead of going on about economic consequences. Putin isn't worried about money currency, he cares about power, and the expansion of Russian power. Threaten that, instead.

What I cannot quite wrap my head around is the fact that Russia actually threatened Finland and Sweden with consequences if they joined or sided with NATO, all while they were invading Ukraine. What the hell did they expect, that Sweden and Finland would just agree and stand aside?

 

[post]

(7.) and (8.) reform U.S. and Western European capitalism to remove the cronyism and reduce acute wealth concentration and increase
U.S. petroleum refining capacity by setting up an arm of CFPB to build and operate state of the art petroleum refining to partially offset Russia's
2 to 3 million bbl daily export of refined products and deliberate lack of private investment in U.S. of petroleum refining.

-snip- It does not say, state OWNED,

Russian oligarch's super yacht seized - BBC News​

https://www.bbc.com › news › business-60604206
1 day ago — A yacht owned by Igor Sechin, boss of Russian state energy company Rosneft, was grabbed by French customs officers near Marseille.

The U.S. will not sanction Schroder, the former Chancellor of Germany, nor other former European Union countries high ranking elected
officials who "pepper" the board rooms of Russian domeciled, publicly traded corporations!

Rosneft Hopes Schroder Can Improve Foreign Relations​

https://www.energyintel.com › ...
17 hours ago — Speaking at the shareholders meeting, Rosneft CEO Igor Sechin -- who is personally blacklisted under US sanctions -- characterized Schroder ...

Rosneft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

...

Key people	Gerhard Schröder (Chairman) Igor Sechin (CEO)

"Rosneft owns and operates seven large refineries in Russia with an aggregate annual capacity of 372 million barrels (59.1 million cubic metres) and four mini-refineries. The refineries are able to process about 45% of crude oil produced by Rosneft as a whole. Rosneft owns as well a 50% stake in Ruhr Oel GmbH, the owner of stakes in four refineries in Germany with overall capacity of 23.2 million tonnes. Rosneft is the second largest national oil company by retail network, which covers 41 regions of Russia and includes 1,800 filling stations. In March 2020, the company stopped its operations in Venezuela and sold all of its assets in the country to another unnamed company that is owned by the Russian government.
-snip- ....

Plans to Reopen St. Croix’s Limetree Refinery Have Analysts Surprised and Residents Concerned - Inside Climate News

An accident-prone oil refinery in the U.S. Virgin Islands with a history of serious environmental violations could soon reopen under new ownership, despite strong objections from nearby communities, a litany of environmental scandals and a shaky financial outlook. After shutting down in 2012 and...

insideclimatenews.org

Plans to Reopen St. Croix’s Limetree Refinery Have Analysts Surprised and Residents Concerned​

Twice bankrupt, the oil refinery in the U.S. Virgin Islands has a troubled environmental past and a shaky financial outlook, analysts say. Still, two bidders want to restart it.​

By Kristoffer Tigue
December 17, 2021

Limetree formerly Hovensa​

Hovensa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"...At a capacity of about 500,000 barrels per day (79,000 m3/d), in 2010 the refinery was among the 10 largest in the world.[1][2][3]

Hess Oil Virgin Islands Corporation started refinery construction in January 1966 having purchased the property from Annie de Chabert and, in October of the same year, the refinery started operating.[4] In 1974, the capacity of refinery was expanded up to its peak at 650,000 barrels per day (103,000 m3/d). Hovensa LLC, which took over the refinery operatorship, was established in 1998...."

 

[cpwill]

What I cannot quite wrap my head around is the fact that Russia actually threatened Finland and Sweden with consequences if they joined or sided with NATO, all while they were invading Ukraine. What the hell did they expect, that Sweden and Finland would just agree and stand aside?

Yup. Especially when Russia is bogged down.

 

[Lord of Planar]

What I cannot quite wrap my head around is the fact that Russia actually threatened Finland and Sweden with consequences if they joined or sided with NATO, all while they were invading Ukraine. What the hell did they expect, that Sweden and Finland would just agree and stand aside?

How did they threaten them?

Economic sanctions like we started?

How do you like the backlash? How much do you pay for a gallon of gas now?

 

[The Mark]

How did they threaten them?

Russia threatens 'military and political consequences' if Finland, Sweden try joining NATO

Russia threatened "military and political consequences" against Finland and Sweden on Friday if they attempted to join NATO.Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova warned against other countries attempting to join NATO after Russia started a war with Ukraine Thursday."Finland and...

news.yahoo.com

Russia threatens ‘military and political consequences’ if Finland, Sweden try joining NATO

Russia threatened “military and political consequences” against Finland and Sweden on Friday if they attempted to join NATO.Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova warned against othe…

thehill.com

Economic sanctions like we started?

No.

How do you like the backlash? How much do you pay for a gallon of gas now?

More, but that's to be expected, instability always tends to increase that kind of thing. Luckily I don't need to drive much, although I expect it's causing increased delivery fees.
But in the grand scheme of things a bit more money for fuel costs seems a reasonable tradeoff IMO.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Interesting. I did a search on the threat. If you look at this from Russia's viewpoint, Russia has every right to be concerned. Just like we would be if Canada joined a military alliance with Canada.

Consider the military obligations Sweden and Finland would have if they joined NATO.

 

[The Mark]

Interesting. I did a search on the threat. If you look at this from Russia's viewpoint, Russia has every right to be concerned. Just like we would be if Canada joined a military alliance with Canada.

Consider the military obligations Sweden and Finland would have if they joined NATO.

The situation that made that concern a thing was created by Russia invading Ukraine.
Of course Finland and Sweden would be considering NATO, they just watched another country bordering Russia be invaded by Russia - which makes Russia appear as a threat they have to counter, and the obvious choice is NATO. And threatening "military and political consequences" if they do just makes it worse.
I expect that had Russia not invaded Ukraine, they wouldn't be considering it, or at least not with anywhere near as much seriousness.

 

[Ahlevah]

I think Russia is about to run out of expansionism.

Unless NATO is prepared to intervene by creating a no-fly zone in the western part of the country or provide a buttload of aircraft, I think Ukraine is history. Putin will level it if he has to, and the West will probably stand by and let him. The Russians are not going to tolerate a western-oriented, independent Ukraine on its border, and certainly not one that's a member of NATO. It views that as an existential threat, and will do anything to stop it. I think Russia wants to completely annex the country and Russify it with people who are not Ukrainian nationalists. To the Russian generals and politicians who strive to create "Eurasia" with Russia in charge, this is a long game. Russia has the weapons and the people to make it happen, and Putin's move towards a totalitarian state is designed to keep meddling citizens from mucking it up. On the other hand, NATO is not going to risk WWIII over Ukraine.

Eurasianism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ahlevah]

Russia has no intention of expanding, but they do need Ukraine to be neutral to function as a buffer-State to halt NATO expansion.

I'm not so sure about that. One of the main textbooks at the Military Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia teaches that Ukraine has its own territorial ambitions and needs to be eliminated as an independent state, and, in fact, incorporated into Russia proper.

Foundations of Geopolitics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Lord of Planar]

The situation that made that concern a thing was created by Russia invading Ukraine.
Of course Finland and Sweden would be considering NATO, they just watched another country bordering Russia be invaded by Russia - which makes Russia appear as a threat they have to counter, and the obvious choice is NATO. And threatening "military and political consequences" if they do just makes it worse.
I expect that had Russia not invaded Ukraine, they wouldn't be considering it, or at least not with anywhere near as much seriousness.

Are you saying that the attempt to fastrack the Ukraine into the EU had nothing to do with this?

We shouldn't even be dealing with the Ukraine after they deposed a president elected in a free election.

 

[Gateman_Wen]

Unless NATO is prepared to intervene by creating a no-fly zone in the western part of the country or provide a buttload of aircraft, I think Ukraine is history. Putin will level it if he has to, and the West will probably stand by and let him. The Russians are not going to tolerate a western-oriented, independent Ukraine on its border, and certainly not one that's a member of NATO. It views that as an existential threat, and will do anything to stop it. I think Russia wants to completely annex the country and Russify it with people who are not Ukrainian nationalists. To the Russian generals and politicians who strive to create "Eurasia" with Russia in charge, this is a long game. Russia has the weapons and the people to make it happen, and Putin's move towards a totalitarian state is designed to keep meddling citizens from mucking it up. On the other hand, NATO is not going to risk WWIII over Ukraine.

Eurasianism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Level it they might, but capture it? I think it unlikely.

 

[Ahlevah]

Level it they might, but capture it? I think it unlikely.

Yeah, well, the Ukrainians who don’t flee to Poland, Hungary, or Romania will either be leveled as well or starved out. I liken the Russian invasion to a massive visit by the Orkin Man. The Russians aren’t playing by Marquess of Queensberry Rules. Already food is becoming a problem in some areas.

 

[Gateman_Wen]

Yeah, well, the Ukrainians who don’t flee to Poland, Hungary, or Romania will either be leveled as well or starved out. I liken the Russian invasion to a massive visit by the Orkin Man. The Russians aren’t playing by Marquess of Queensberry Rules. Already food is becoming a problem in some areas.

Guerillas are a bitch.

 

[The Mark]

Are you saying that the attempt to fastrack the Ukraine into the EU had nothing to do with this?

We shouldn't even be dealing with the Ukraine after they deposed a president elected in a free election.

Nope.
Of course it had something to do with it.

Russia has long had the position that they would never allow Ukraine to join NATO or EU. (I'm sure about the former but less so about the latter).
Like many things in international politics, you could go back through multiple decades and even centuries of history to find ever older reasons why one side or the other is wrong or right.

What I'm saying is that Russia invading Ukraine created a situation where Finland and Sweden were definitely going to consider joining NATO.
It may be that they feel they had no choice, but that doesn't change the consequences of their action.

 

[Ahlevah]

Guerillas are a bitch.

Guerrillas still need a place to operate from. Unless they have access to cities, their numbers will be manageable for the Russians. I’m sure Putin’s generals have considered this, and they won’t be constrained by public opinion.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

We should push hard on research and development into energy sources that do not require the various fossil fuels, since that will free up what we do have for the areas which those alternate energy sources cannot cover, and reduce our needs overall.
But we need to keep in mind that we might just be replacing one material requirement with another. I'm mainly thinking about the use of hard to get substances in large rechargeable batteries, but there are probably other examples.

The Salton Sea in Southern California has now been recognized as the Saudi Arabia of lithium production.



Estimates range as high as three to six million metric tons of lithium, with an annual yield of around 600,000 tons a year, which is several times more than projected global demand.
Truly, you might say that California has a new "gold rush" on their hands.

 

[Gateman_Wen]

Guerrillas still need a place to operate from. Unless they have access to cities, their numbers will be manageable for the Russians. I’m sure Putin’s generals have considered this, and they won’t be constrained by public opinion.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Ahlevah]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

True, but Putin’s been likened to a car with no reverse, or a bicyclist who has to keep peddling forward or else he will fall over. In his mind, failure is not an option.

 

[Individual]

No more measures than have already been taken. The EU should be capable of handling it without our help if it comes to military action.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Are you aware of the internal strife over there before Russian agreed to help the ethnic Russians being mistreated?

The last democratically elected leader in the Ukraine had to flee in 2014, when there was an illegal revolt. The current government is very corrupt, and we should not be dealing with them at all.

The revolt was led by ordinary citizens who were sick of corrupt Russian backed members in the government.

Zelensky won the office with 73% of the vote because his message was simple.

1. Peace in the Donbas

2. Fight government corruption.

3. Improve the quality of life for Ukrainians.

Zelensky’s Presidency at the Two-Year Mark

www.wilsoncenter.org

Unlike many presidents before him, Volodymyr Zelensky enjoys an astonishingly high level of trust nationwide: two years into his presidency, 46 percent of Ukrainians trust the sitting president (while 51 percent do not trust him). At the same period of his presidency, President Poroshenko enjoyed a trust rating of 20 percent (with 71 percent of respondents distrusting) and President Yanukovych had a trust rating of 22 percent (with 70 percent distrusting).

The Ukraine was on the upswing under Zelensky as he was trying to free the country of Russian (Putin) backed cronies and their corruption.

 

[trouble13]

I think the western world should grow some balls.and implement a no fly zone over the Ukraine.

 

[RetiredUSN]

The devil on my left shoulder says NATO should wipe out Russia's military once and for all, and not just for Ukraine, but for the future security of the Baltics and eastern Europe.

Then, I have the angel on my right shoulder who keeps telling me that world sponsored sanctions will do the job eventually.

 

[post]

How did they threaten them?

Economic sanctions like we started?

How do you like the backlash? How much do you pay for a gallon of gas now?

How dare you? You are shameless, appearing to be dead inside.

The U.S. and NATO did not grab Crimea or invade and occupy Eastern Ukraine.
The U.S. and NATO did not invade Ukraine and kill thousands on an absurd pretense.

George Stephanopoulos Grills Sergey Lavrov on Nazi Claims

ABC's George Stephanopoulos interrogated Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov over his country's claims that Ukraine is infested by Neo-Nazis.

www.mediaite.com

Stephanopoulos asked him “do you believe that President [Volodymyr] Zelensky, the first Jewish president of Ukraine, whose parents were killed in the Holocaust, is a Nazi?”
“I think the Nazis and neo-Nazis manipulate him,” Lavrov claimed. “Otherwise, it is hard to account how President Zelensky can preside over a society where neo-Nazis make strife. They make marches and torch processions. And for the torch processions, President Zelensky allocates has his personal guards from his company, and they train constantly, studying acts of sabotage and warfare in urban areas. And that is all happening under President Zelensky.”

Analysis: Trump has been on Putin's side in Ukraine's long struggle against Russian aggression

Americans rarely pay much attention to international events. Busy lives leave little time for distant events with unfamiliar protagonists.

www.cnn.com

March 6, 2022
"Americans rarely pay much attention to international events. Busy lives leave little time for distant events with unfamiliar protagonists.
Russian President Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine has become a rare exception, its butchery in plain view via saturation coverage for anyone with a video screen. But Americans may not yet have absorbed this disturbing reality: The American president who left office just 14 months ago sided with the butcher.
That's right: In the struggle now uniting the free world against an autocrat's lawless aggression, America's most recent ex-President sided with the autocrat...."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War#April–July_2008
"...In late June, (2008) Russian military expert Pavel Felgenhauer predicted that Vladimir Putin would start a war against Georgia in Abkhazia and South Ossetia supposedly in August.[114][124] Aleksandr Dugin, known for his strong ties with the Russian military and intelligence,[125] suggested at a press conference in South Ossetia on 30 June that the existence of Georgian enclaves in South Ossetia was the last remaining barrier to the recognition and South Ossetia had to solve this problem. He further stated that South Ossetia's independence would block Georgia's NATO membership and the recognition must take place before December 2008.[126] .."