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What matters more - quality or quantity?

What did I just wrote?


This is the part you highlighted to make that stupid comment.
This is literally just what followed.

...

Way to make a 0 contribution and just make a comment for the sake of making a comment. Both of you.

Noting the value of force protection is a stupid comment? At least I didn't make some contradictory fairy tale post that has nothing to do with reality. Reality check: there is no, "other hand".
 
I answered that question in the same god damn comment.


Are you all partially blind or something? jesus christ.

US conservative, apdst or whatever his name is and you. Way to not read the full comment.

You got it right. ;)
 
Noting the value of force protection is a stupid comment? At least I didn't make some contradictory fairy tale post that has nothing to do with reality. Reality check: there is no, "other hand".

Yes there is. In all immediate scenarios. I have 2 hands. Chances are you have 2 hands. hence, one is one hand and the other is the other hand. So it's literally there, in reality, in front of you. (this was a little snide on my part, i hadn't had my coffee yet)

And in regards to the thread topic, there is the other hand because there are many ways to accomplish a goal or even defining what you consider successful. If winning a war with as few casualties as possible successful, then it is justified to spend huge amounts of money on the best equipment money can buy to win that war with that parameter in mind. If human life is not important, then you just dump some equipment and see what happens. If protecting civilians is important, then you won't carpet bomb entire cities and invest in smart guided missiles to take out tactical positions or send in special forces to take it out. If not, then who cares, carpet bomb into oblivion. Etc. There are considerations after considerations and each consideration can be tweaked to preferences.

And yes, you're making stupid comments because you're not reading the entire comment. Your reply to me was covered in my initial reply.
 
That's one thing I still can't figure out, why does todays military or even the CIA spends $58,000 on a Hellfire missile when a 5 cent bullet could have accomplished the same thing ?

How many hundreds of billions of dollars have we spent on fighting in Afghanistan that had no army, air force or navy to fight ? And what were the results ?

Really for some one who was in the military you really don't get this.
Here let me give you a few of the reasons.
1. It keeps from having to put a Soldier or Marines life at risk.
2. It's called Close Air Support something the US military has been using since they started using airplanes.
3. Often times because the Reaper or what ever is firing the missile is on a recon or similar type mission where there most likely isn't any one close by who can fire that bullet so you options are either to blow the guy up, let the target get away or spend the time and risk and expense of infilling a team or squad into the area than hoping that by the time they get into position to make the shot the guy is still there.

This really does not seem like a hard concept to anyone who understands the realities of combat.
 
Yes there is. In all immediate scenarios. I have 2 hands. Chances are you have 2 hands. hence, one is one hand and the other is the other hand. So it's literally there, in reality, in front of you. (this was a little snide on my part, i hadn't had my coffee yet)

And in regards to the thread topic, there is the other hand because there are many ways to accomplish a goal or even defining what you consider successful. If winning a war with as few casualties as possible successful, then it is justified to spend huge amounts of money on the best equipment money can buy to win that war with that parameter in mind. If human life is not important, then you just dump some equipment and see what happens. If protecting civilians is important, then you won't carpet bomb entire cities and invest in smart guided missiles to take out tactical positions or send in special forces to take it out. If not, then who cares, carpet bomb into oblivion. Etc. There are considerations after considerations and each consideration can be tweaked to preferences.

And yes, you're making stupid comments because you're not reading the entire comment. Your reply to me was covered in my initial reply.

You don't use special forces to take out a tactical position.
 
None of your linked quote is saying that the Marines don't need both MARSOC and FR and even points out why they want both. The whole different missions thing. The biggest issue is that you can only be matters of so many tasks. If you tried to push the whole UW piece on FR that is going to take needed training time away from the traditional FR mission. There is a reason the Army doesn't have Ranger Bn doing UW and SF doing Airfield seizure. You end up with a unit that on paper is capable of everything but in reality not very good at much of anything.

I say that the Marine Corps doesn't need MARSOC. And it you took a poll of all Marines active and not active I bet the majority would agree.

It's my opinion. It's a ****ing opinion that you seem to always have a problem with. Always wanting to get into a pissing match. Your opinions are always right and everyone elses opinions are wrong. If you were to ever attend the Army's War College you would probably get kicked out on your ass. You recognize right off that there are thousands of different opinions how things should be done.

Ten or twenty years from now you're going to look at your experiences and knowledge learned in Afghanistan completely different. You're going to know more about what you were doing twenty years later than today. And you're going to say if I could only go back and do it right.
 
You don't use special forces to take out a tactical position.

More of the same uninspired comments with no substance. I'm done with you. Cheers.
 
I say that the Marine Corps doesn't need MARSOC. And it you took a poll of all Marines active and not active I bet the majority would agree.

It's my opinion. It's a ****ing opinion that you seem to always have a problem with. Always wanting to get into a pissing match. Your opinions are always right and everyone elses opinions are wrong. If you were to ever attend the Army's War College you would probably get kicked out on your ass. You recognize right off that there are thousands of different opinions how things should be done.

Ten or twenty years from now you're going to look at your experiences and knowledge learned in Afghanistan completely different. You're going to know more about what you were doing twenty years later than today. And you're going to say if I could only go back and do it right.

First as I bet the majority of former Marines don't really understand just what it is that MARSOC does I doubt that anyone besides those former Marines really care what their opinion is. And seeing as MARSOC always has way more people trying to join their ranks than make it through A&S there is apparently a fair number of Marines that want MARSOC to stick around.

Here is the thing you love to give your opinion as if it were fact and than try and back up that opinion with a whole lot of either made up or just wrong info. When you do that don't be suprised when someone calls you out on it. Especially when you say ridiculous crap like SOF forces have been doing nothing but playing cops and robbers or that MARSOC guys would need to go back to basic before they could rejoin the fleet.

Of course everyone looks back at things differently over time. The trick is to be able to look at things objectively with out mixing in things you wish were true. For example I have seen one person on this forum make comments about the lack of discipline in today's military and talk about how much harder and better things were when they were in completely glossing over the huge morale, drug, and discipline problems that happened within the military during the 60s and 70s. Get what I am talking about.
 
You don't use special forces to take out a tactical position.

May I ask just what do you consider a tacticle position. Just want to be clear
 
Really for some one who was in the military you really don't get this.
Here let me give you a few of the reasons.
1. It keeps from having to put a Soldier or Marines life at risk.
2. It's called Close Air Support something the US military has been using since they started using airplanes.
3. Often times because the Reaper or what ever is firing the missile is on a recon or similar type mission where there most likely isn't any one close by who can fire that bullet so you options are either to blow the guy up, let the target get away or spend the time and risk and expense of infilling a team or squad into the area than hoping that by the time they get into position to make the shot the guy is still there.

This really does not seem like a hard concept to anyone who understands the realities of combat.

Getting into a field that I have actual combat experience with. Remember I served with 1st ANGLICO.

No the U.S. hasn't always used CAS (For you that's close air support). The first time it was used in the world was by the USMC during the Banana Wars. It was German military attaches while observing how Marines were using aircraft that Blitzkrieg was developed from.

CAS was just being perfected in the Pacific during WW ll by U.S. Marines signal companies and JASCO's. ( A Marine Corps acronym for Joint Allied Signal Company) JASCO's would evolve into ANGELICO's during the Korean war.

The procedures for calling in a CAS mission haven't changed over the decades, just the words and acronyms have changed so all branches of the military understand each other.

Back during the Vietnam War, a Marine FAC was a Marine naval aviator usually a A-4, F-4, or F-8 fighter jock who was on the ground TAD with a grunt unit, today I believe they are called JTCA's.
TAC use to be tactical as in the USAF Tactical Air Command who provided CAS. Today TAC is Terminal Attack Control. Forty years from now a TAC might be some kind of combat toilet for female soldiers that they hump around on their backs ?
 
Getting into a field that I have actual combat experience with. Remember I served with 1st ANGLICO.

No the U.S. hasn't always used CAS (For you that's close air support). The first time it was used in the world was by the USMC during the Banana Wars. It was German military attaches while observing how Marines were using aircraft that Blitzkrieg was developed from.

CAS was just being perfected in the Pacific during WW ll by U.S. Marines signal companies and JASCO's. ( A Marine Corps acronym for Joint Allied Signal Company) JASCO's would evolve into ANGELICO's during the Korean war.

The procedures for calling in a CAS mission haven't changed over the decades, just the words and acronyms have changed so all branches of the military understand each other.

Back during the Vietnam War, a Marine FAC was a Marine naval aviator usually a A-4, F-4, or F-8 fighter jock who was on the ground TAD with a grunt unit, today I believe they are called JTCA's.
TAC use to be tactical as in the USAF Tactical Air Command who provided CAS. Today TAC is Terminal Attack Control. Forty years from now a TAC might be some kind of combat toilet for female soldiers that they hump around on their backs ?

Uhm So if you know all this than why did you need to ask why we use missiles rather than bullets. I mean why did you call in naval gunfire rather than just use your rifle. It is cheaper.
 
First as I bet the majority of former Marines don't really understand just what it is that MARSOC does I doubt that anyone besides those former Marines really care what their opinion is..

First thing you got wrong was "former Marines." No such animal. There might be former soldiers or former sailors but not former Marines. You have Marines who are on active duty and Marines not on active duty or have Marines who have completed their tour of duty in the Corps. But there are no former Marines. Must be some Army myth or something.

You would be surprised how many old Marines know what going on in todays Corps. They have probably more knowledge than those on active duty. Most active duty grunts don't know what the cannon colckers are doing and the cannon cockers have no idea what the airdales are doing. Decades later they will know.

When the Obama administration tried to force the Marines to adopt a girly hat, it was those old Marines who already served their tour of duty who were the most vocal and stopped the girly hat.

Re: Cops and Robbers. There are many who have said that in the past ten years our military has become a constable force, playing policeman, adopting civilian police tactics or SWATT tactics in urban warfare. Using civilian police "community policing" tactics to win the hearts and minds. Civilian tactics like that aren't going to work to well going against Russian or Chinese soldiers in a real war.

In 2001 Gondolizza Rice gave a little speech directed towards G.W. Bush and Rumsfeld on how not to use the U.S. military. It seems they had a short memory span.

I don't make **** up. I listen to or read hundreds of others personal opinions, read a lot of history, usually from where history is written from and with my own personal experiences and observations I come up with my own personal opinions.

A couple of weeks ago on this forum some jerk tried to tell me that when I was discharged from the Marine Corps in 1971 that I filled out some VA form and I was automatically entered into the VA system. I never filled out any forms. Any forms that were filled out was done by admin. Last week I was talking to a buddy who was discharged around the same time I was. He filed a Agent Orange claim with the VA, he wasn't entered into the VA system and he filled out that same form over twenty years after he was discharged. So the guy was wrong. Besides how the **** would he know what the processing out procedure was almost twenty years before he went through the process ?
 
Uhm So if you know all this than why did you need to ask why we use missiles rather than bullets. I mean why did you call in naval gunfire rather than just use your rifle. It is cheaper.

Personally instead of using a Million Dollar Tomahawk cruise missile to take out a radar site, I would rather use a $500, 1,900 lb 16" HE round.

Actually once we did use NGF so we could kill Charley with bullets. There was an NVA platoon dug in. My job was always OJT (on the job training) always learning new tricks that weren't taught at Coronado or on San Clemente Island. The platoon LT asked me to call in a call for fire. He wanted me to put on 5" WP over Charley. I called in Danger Close Fire Mission and asked for a 5" WP round with a VT fuse. When that round exploded over Charley's position and all of that Willie Peter went flying all over the place and Charley was jumping out of their holes like **** roaches. The grunts took care of the rest with their M-16's.

Once the **** came down on me because I called for a 6" gun cruiser six gun salvo on a target and someone up above wasn't happy with the enemy KIA results. Something like we don't fire six 6" rounds that cost hundreds of dollars each to kill four NVA. I was lucky the **** came over the radio. I had my call sign changed as soon as I could hoping who ever was on the other end didn't come across me some time down the road.
 
I say that the Marine Corps doesn't need MARSOC. And it you took a poll of all Marines active and not active I bet the majority would agree.

It's my opinion. It's a ****ing opinion that you seem to always have a problem with. Always wanting to get into a pissing match. Your opinions are always right and everyone elses opinions are wrong. If you were to ever attend the Army's War College you would probably get kicked out on your ass. You recognize right off that there are thousands of different opinions how things should be done.

Ten or twenty years from now you're going to look at your experiences and knowledge learned in Afghanistan completely different. You're going to know more about what you were doing twenty years later than today. And you're going to say if I could only go back and do it right.

Agreed, but context is not always a thing easily gained. Context is sometimes a luxury.
Strain brain means well but is quite angry and often lacks context.
He grows every day, as have you, I think.
You and I were like that once. I might still be.
And yes, I think we might need a patron saint of imperfect knowlege, because I know how rough life can be.
Sometimes life is a math problem, bud. We know it.
 
May I ask just what do you consider a tacticle position. Just want to be clear

Purdy much anything within the enemy's area of operations that is an asset to his combat power, to include combat multipliers.
 
Of course SOF would need conventional ground units, armor and air support if it's a conflict beyond their operating means. SOF is quality - conventional forces is quantity.

Sorry, not true at all.

The US military is hardly "quantity over quality".

And to correct Apache a bit, the Marines do have Special Operations Forces, they are known as Force Recon. And MARSOC was not just propaganda.

I was in during the start of MARSOC. The concept was to do as much cross-training as possible with the Marine Infantry forces. Each year, the various Infantry Battalions would go to differing schools, getting specialized training. One year they might do Jungle Warfare, then the next they would do specialized Amphibious Warfare schools. The year after it would be Cold Weather at Wisconsin and Norway, then the year after that an in-depth Desert Warfare course at 29 Palms or Fort Irwin.

And this training was much more in depth then was done before. The idea was to give each Battalion experience in many different forms of warfare, so they could be more easily deployed in various locations and actually have experience in operating there.

A lot of this was brought up in 1989 during Operation Just Cause. At that time, 2nd Battalion 2nd Marine Regiment was the only Infantry Battalion that had done the Jungle Warfare school in the previous 4 years, and they were already preparing to go to Okinawa in January 1990. So suddenly deployment orders were put on hold and 2/2 spent almost a month in limbo, unsure if they were going to Okinawa as scheduled, or to Panama where their training could be put to better use.

Of course, this was also an earlier evolution of what we call MARSOC. Back in 1990 it stood for "Marine Special Operations Capable". This was a designation that would be given to an Infantry battalion once they had accomplished at least 3 of the required training programs.

The main difference between Special operations and Conventional forces is doctrine and training then quality. And we have seen in past conflicts that the numbers of people who can be accepted in the SO community can be increased dramatically with no detriment in quality. The number is restricted simply by how many are needed. And we need less Force Recon then we do Marine Infantry, less Rangers then we need Airborne Infantry, and less Airborne then we need conventional Infantry.
 
First thing you got wrong was "former Marines." No such animal. There might be former soldiers or former sailors but not former Marines. You have Marines who are on active duty and Marines not on active duty or have Marines who have completed their tour of duty in the Corps. But there are no former Marines. Must be some Army myth or something.

You would be surprised how many old Marines know what going on in todays Corps. They have probably more knowledge than those on active duty. Most active duty grunts don't know what the cannon colckers are doing and the cannon cockers have no idea what the airdales are doing. Decades later they will know.
Call it what ever you want but if you are no longer in the Marine Corps either active or reserve you are in fact a former Marine. Now you may still be very proud of what you did and carry over a lot of the things you learned and carry yourself in the same way which is good and I feel should be encouraged but you are a former Marine. That is a fact.

In my experience most of the people who have been out for a while only think they know what is going on. Now they may have a good idea on general concepts like this unit standing up or this ship being retired but as to what is actually going on at the ground level not so much. This goes double for units that are more secretive like FR and MARSOC.


When the Obama administration tried to force the Marines to adopt a girly hat, it was those old Marines who already served their tour of duty who were the most vocal and stopped the girly hat.

Re: Cops and Robbers. There are many who have said that in the past ten years our military has become a constable force, playing policeman, adopting civilian police tactics or SWATT tactics in urban warfare. Using civilian police "community policing" tactics to win the hearts and minds. Civilian tactics like that aren't going to work to well going against Russian or Chinese soldiers in a real war.
They are not civilian tactics at all and you must adjust you tactics to the enemy you are fighting. Those very tactics you make fun off have been much more successful than any off the other tactics used over there. Had they been done correctly from the get go things probably would have turned out very differently and not just in Astan but Vietnam as well.

In 2001 Gondolizza Rice gave a little speech directed towards G.W. Bush and Rumsfeld on how not to use the U.S. military. It seems they had a short memory span.

I don't make **** up. I listen to or read hundreds of others personal opinions, read a lot of history, usually from where history is written from and with my own personal experiences and observations I come up with my own personal opinions.

A couple of weeks ago on this forum some jerk tried to tell me that when I was discharged from the Marine Corps in 1971 that I filled out some VA form and I was automatically entered into the VA system. I never filled out any forms. Any forms that were filled out was done by admin. Last week I was talking to a buddy who was discharged around the same time I was. He filed a Agent Orange claim with the VA, he wasn't entered into the VA system and he filled out that same form over twenty years after he was discharged. So the guy was wrong. Besides how the **** would he know what the processing out procedure was almost twenty years before he went through the process ?

To call what SOF forces do playing cops and robbers shows a huge lack of understanding of what is going on. And just FYI if you have to clear a building and can't just blow it up, using what you call SWAT tactics are the very safest most effective way to clear the building.

I like how you keep talking about how what has been going on for the last 12 years or so is not a real war. Well guess what, to a lot of WW2 and Korea vets what you were in is not a real war either so don't act so high and mighty
 
Personally instead of using a Million Dollar Tomahawk cruise missile to take out a radar site, I would rather use a $500, 1,900 lb 16" HE round.

Actually once we did use NGF so we could kill Charley with bullets. There was an NVA platoon dug in. My job was always OJT (on the job training) always learning new tricks that weren't taught at Coronado or on San Clemente Island. The platoon LT asked me to call in a call for fire. He wanted me to put on 5" WP over Charley. I called in Danger Close Fire Mission and asked for a 5" WP round with a VT fuse. When that round exploded over Charley's position and all of that Willie Peter went flying all over the place and Charley was jumping out of their holes like **** roaches. The grunts took care of the rest with their M-16's.

Once the **** came down on me because I called for a 6" gun cruiser six gun salvo on a target and someone up above wasn't happy with the enemy KIA results. Something like we don't fire six 6" rounds that cost hundreds of dollars each to kill four NVA. I was lucky the **** came over the radio. I had my call sign changed as soon as I could hoping who ever was on the other end didn't come across me some time down the road.

Thats some crazy stuff, calling in fire is typically trusted to someone who is reliable and calm under pressure.
I never got to see or hear a heavy cruiser fire off its broadside. Its unlikely I ever will, but it would be cool to resurrect one of those heavy gun boats to do historical re enactments etc.

I heard some of the biggest shells were so massive and slow in flight that airplanes could almost follow right behind. Thats probably not true, but still impressive. Those big guns were all black powder charged, right?
 
As technology advances, so does the costs - and as the quality/costs goes up - the volume/quantity goes down.

Unquestionably Germany had superior technology and I think it accurate Japan did too at the start of WWII. What they came to face was massively greater - but inferior - quantities. The tidal waves of lesser equipment - from massive numbers of tanks and artillery, to massive numbers of aircraft and ships - became unstoppable.

It seems the QUANTITY of American military equipment is dramatically declining - although the technology and QUALITY (and accordingly costs) are rapidly increasing.

Which matters more? 5 aircraft near on par with every 1 of a potential adversary - or 1 superior aircraft against 5 of their not quite as good aircraft?

These aircraft we are building are astronomically expensive - and it is starting to look like - as with German super tanks - the ubber technology also requires ubber maintenance and ubber potential systems failures.

Is the quest for ultimate weapons at extreme costs weakening our military by dramatically reducing quantities of system and the raw firepower that quantity brings?

There is NOT an infinite amount of money. What do you military guys think? Quality OR Quantity if the choice has to be made?

Actually, history shows time and again that while quantity helps, quality and logistics are what matters much more. Germany had some superior technology...but the Soviets had the best medium tank of the war - and LOTS of them. In fact, Hitler told Heinz Guderian that if he had known that German intel had indeed been accurate about how many tanks the Soviets had, he would have thought twice about invading. But he had not believed the intel he'd been given. What's more, when Germany invaded France, the French had the superiority in quantity and quality of tanks - it was Germany's tactics which overwhelmed the French. Germany's real advantage was in military leadership and professionalism...but Hitler's micromanagement negated that.

When it came to Japan, they also had some qualitative advantages...but their failure to have self-sealing fuel tanks in their aircraft, their tactical decision to land and refuel on the flight decks just before the Americans happened to show up with dive bombers at Midway (a great example of the effect of blind luck in war), and their massive logistical disadvantage (which Admiral Yamamoto pointed out to the government before Pearl Harbor) are all examples of how much more there is to the story.

History abounds with examples of quality overcoming quality - take Germany's victory over Russia in WWI and this retired sailor's personal favorite, Trafalgar. Genghis Khan built the greatest land empire in all human history using far, far inferior numbers - but no one could compete with his 'Keshiks' - what we would today call 'Cossacks'.
 
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The Germans and Japanese ultimately lost their war due to their flawed grand strategy.
 
Actually, history shows time and again that while quantity helps, quality and logistics are what matters much more. Germany had some superior technology...but the Soviets had the best medium tank of the war - and LOTS of them. In fact, Hitler told Heinz Guderian that if he had known that German intel had indeed been accurate about how many tanks the Soviets had, he would have thought twice about invading.

Commonly told fable, worthless however.

Yes, the Soviet tanks outnumbered their German counterparts in 1941 by around 4 to 1. However, this meant nothing since the T-34 did not start rolling off the lines in any considerable numbers until mid 1942. For almost a complete year, the Germans badly mauled Soviet armored forces.

The majority of the tanks the Soviets had were almost worthless, like the T-27. Not even a "light tank", this was based upon a mid 1920's British design. Or the BT series of light tanks. Large numbers, but they could not stand against the more modern designs.

In the first 2 years of the war, Germany averaged 7 tank kills for every Soviet tank kill. When Operation Barbarossa started, the Soviets had over 22,000 tanks. By January 1942, they had 7,700 left.

So as you can see, quantity means absolutely nothing unless there is quality to back it up.

When it came to Japan, they also had some qualitative advantages...but their failure to have self-sealing fuel tanks in their aircraft, their tactical decision to land and refuel on the flight decks just before the Americans happened to show up with dive bombers at Midway (a great example of the effect of blind luck in war), and their massive logistical disadvantage (which Admiral Yamamoto pointed out to the government before Pearl Harbor) are all examples of how much more there is to the story.

Actually, the largest advantage Japan had was that they did not have the same kind of traditions.

The Japanese Army as fought in WWII had only existed for around 50 years. By catapulting themselves straight from a Medieval Feudal society to an industrialized modern one in a single generation, they were able to take instant advantage of all the modern advances, without the "old guard" fighting them because of traditions.

Heck, one interesting bit of trivia I love is the infamous Polish cavalry charge against German tanks. However, that was not the last actual Cavalry Charge.

On 16 January 1942, the 26th US Cavalry Regiment charged Japanese forces on horseback during the Philippine Campaign. They were largely slaughtered going against Japanese machine guns and withdrew, slaughtering their horses for food during the seige.

History abounds with examples of quality overcoming quality - take Germany's victory over Russia in WWI and this retired sailor's personal favorite, Trafalgar. Genghis Khan built the greatest land empire in all human history using far, far inferior numbers - but no one could compete with his 'Keshiks' - what we would today call 'Cossacks'.

But Germany did not win a victory over Russia in WWI, Russia fell into revolution and withdrew on it's own.

And Genghis Khan hardly had "inferior numbers". The Mongol Empire had over 70,000 trained warriors. Then you had conscripts, mercenaries, and pledged troops. And they would take on one country at a time and conquer them before moving on. And they took as tribute from the newly conquered territory more soldiers.

In an era when most nations might have 4-5,000 soldiers, this was a massive and overwhelming force.
 
As technology advances, so does the costs - and as the quality/costs goes up - the volume/quantity goes down.

Unquestionably Germany had superior technology and I think it accurate Japan did too at the start of WWII. What they came to face was massively greater - but inferior - quantities. The tidal waves of lesser equipment - from massive numbers of tanks and artillery, to massive numbers of aircraft and ships - became unstoppable.

It seems the QUANTITY of American military equipment is dramatically declining - although the technology and QUALITY (and accordingly costs) are rapidly increasing.

Which matters more? 5 aircraft near on par with every 1 of a potential adversary - or 1 superior aircraft against 5 of their not quite as good aircraft?

These aircraft we are building are astronomically expensive - and it is starting to look like - as with German super tanks - the ubber technology also requires ubber maintenance and ubber potential systems failures.

Is the quest for ultimate weapons at extreme costs weakening our military by dramatically reducing quantities of system and the raw firepower that quantity brings?

There is NOT an infinite amount of money. What do you military guys think? Quality OR Quantity if the choice has to be made?

They did not have superior tech, they just had a willingness to use the crap they had.
 
Commonly told fable, worthless however.

Yes, the Soviet tanks outnumbered their German counterparts in 1941 by around 4 to 1. However, this meant nothing since the T-34 did not start rolling off the lines in any considerable numbers until mid 1942. For almost a complete year, the Germans badly mauled Soviet armored forces.

The majority of the tanks the Soviets had were almost worthless, like the T-27. Not even a "light tank", this was based upon a mid 1920's British design. Or the BT series of light tanks. Large numbers, but they could not stand against the more modern designs.

In the first 2 years of the war, Germany averaged 7 tank kills for every Soviet tank kill. When Operation Barbarossa started, the Soviets had over 22,000 tanks. By January 1942, they had 7,700 left.

So as you can see, quantity means absolutely nothing unless there is quality to back it up.

You're right on the details, and as I pointed out, history shows the advantage of quality over quantity. We agree on that. But Hitler did say to Guderian that if he'd believed the pre-war intel, he would have reconsidered launching Barbarossa.

Actually, the largest advantage Japan had was that they did not have the same kind of traditions.

The Japanese Army as fought in WWII had only existed for around 50 years. By catapulting themselves straight from a Medieval Feudal society to an industrialized modern one in a single generation, they were able to take instant advantage of all the modern advances, without the "old guard" fighting them because of traditions.

IMO the Meiji Reformation is one of the most interesting cultural transformations in all history - they shocked the world with their defeat of the Russian fleet at Tsushima. And in addition to the quantity vs. quantity issue, I'd also say that an equally important factor is the tendency of one side to underestimate the other.

Heck, one interesting bit of trivia I love is the infamous Polish cavalry charge against German tanks. However, that was not the last actual Cavalry Charge.

On 16 January 1942, the 26th US Cavalry Regiment charged Japanese forces on horseback during the Philippine Campaign. They were largely slaughtered going against Japanese machine guns and withdrew, slaughtering their horses for food during the seige.

THAT is something I did not know - thanks!

But Germany did not win a victory over Russia in WWI, Russia fell into revolution and withdrew on it's own.

I said 'victory' for the sake of brevity. The Germans (who had overestimated the Russians) smacked the numerically-superior Russians silly, and the Russians did not exactly withdraw in an orderly fashion - especially since their nation was being wracked by political turmoil at the time.

And Genghis Khan hardly had "inferior numbers". The Mongol Empire had over 70,000 trained warriors. Then you had conscripts, mercenaries, and pledged troops. And they would take on one country at a time and conquer them before moving on. And they took as tribute from the newly conquered territory more soldiers.

In an era when most nations might have 4-5,000 soldiers, this was a massive and overwhelming force.

On this one you and I will strongly disagree. The Mongols did not numerically overwhelm their opponents - especially China. Do you really think that the Mongolians outnumbered the Chinese? I don't think so - they couldn't have come close to doing so. And that was but the first of their opponents.

If you'll think about it, the Mongols had one thing that was better than anything else before gunpowder: the horse archer...and each Keshik had three or four horses of his own to swap out at need. You could take any other army by any other pre-gunpowder nation, and none of them could have stood before a properly-led army of Mongol horse archers. Add to that a certain brilliance in tactics...and that made them unstoppable.

Y'know, I really don't like using videos or podcasts as references, but there's one podcast I think you'd really, truly enjoy - Dan Carlin's Hardcore History. There's a series of podcasts on the rise of the Mongols - the five-part "Wrath of the Khans" - that illustrates just what they did and how they were able to do it...and it is v-e-r-y entertaining for those interested in military history. Before I listened to the series, I would have dismissed out-of-hand any claim that Genghis Khan was the greatest general ever. Listen to it when you're on the road or wherever (and it's still free for now, but won't be in a few months), then tell me what you think - you're educated, and I'd like to hear your opinion after you listen to it.
 
As technology advances, so does the costs - and as the quality/costs goes up - the volume/quantity goes down.

Unquestionably Germany had superior technology and I think it accurate Japan did too at the start of WWII. What they came to face was massively greater - but inferior - quantities. The tidal waves of lesser equipment - from massive numbers of tanks and artillery, to massive numbers of aircraft and ships - became unstoppable.

It seems the QUANTITY of American military equipment is dramatically declining - although the technology and QUALITY (and accordingly costs) are rapidly increasing.

Which matters more? 5 aircraft near on par with every 1 of a potential adversary - or 1 superior aircraft against 5 of their not quite as good aircraft?

These aircraft we are building are astronomically expensive - and it is starting to look like - as with German super tanks - the ubber technology also requires ubber maintenance and ubber potential systems failures.

Is the quest for ultimate weapons at extreme costs weakening our military by dramatically reducing quantities of system and the raw firepower that quantity brings?

There is NOT an infinite amount of money. What do you military guys think? Quality OR Quantity if the choice has to be made?

The answer is both or neither. The tools needed depend entirely upon the job to be done. A super duper fighter/bomber aircraft or vast naval fleet is useless to stop a terrorist attack on a stadium or mall.

Why is it that the most powerful military on the planet (with both superior manpower and equipment) has not been able, in over a decade, to advance beyond a stalemate against an enemy that has no air force, no navy and a rag tag, at best, army in Afghanistan?
 
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