What is your moral system based on?

[justone]

what exactly do you mean by "harm"?

how do you distinquish harm from pain?

you know you make less sense everyday? :lol:

sensless - no vibration... no frequency...

 

[Jerry]

you know you make less sense everyday? :lol:

*sniff* *sniff* that’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me!

 

[tecoyah]

The increase of my vibration, or frequency, so that I may pass into the Field of the Blessed.

Somebody took the Celestine Prophecy a bit too seriously...Ya think?

 

[FallingPianos]

*sniff* *sniff* that’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me!

I know... it came from the heart.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Whatever are jfuh’s unnecessary excuses for his principal, his need to give scientific answers to dull questions, and his persistent scare to be called a hypocrite, - I would rather have him as a neighbor, than Lachean who lives wrapped in a whole list of ready to go labels and utter contempt directed to outside, to those whom he wishes to label. Lachean as a neighbor would immediately get me involved in bloody fights against Devil tempting me to steal Leachean's horse, seduce his wife, shiit in has back yard, make false statement about him, put on Led Zeppelin through full capacity of my speakers, or just hit him between his eyes – tempting me to do whatever is possible for the sake of good of humanity. Lachean would be a very difficult neighbor; I have more than enough temptations besides him. Jfuh said no harm, - OK, whatever it means in details, as long as he does not have a list of labels wrapped around him each time when he walks in. jfuh walks in saying: “’Hi, neighbor, I mean no harm’’, (he often means just a lot of B/S, but who is here without a sin). Lachean walks in, checking, if I fit his list. An immediate temptation to hit him between the eyes. Is there anybody who is not tempted to hit him between the eyes?

My god are you a nut... I mean I thought you were but wow...

All my neighbors happen to love me, and I have no problem getting along with anyone who doesnt try attempt to use force of any kind on me. You are the type of person who wants to control the actions of others, and thats why you and I would never get along. Not that I would want to, but should you attempt to "hit me between the eyes" I will strike back.

I dont walk in anywhere checking to see if people are on my list. I dont expect anyone to live up to my standards, just their own. What was it in my post or signature that got you so riled up?

 

[128shot]

A mixture of Islam and secular humanism.

I know, strange mix..

 

[justone]

My god are you a nut... I mean I thought you were but wow...

You are a slow thinker… Of course, I have been WOW since the beginning.

All my neighbors happen to love me, and I have no problem getting along with anyone who doesnt try attempt to use force of any kind on me.

Of course, if they are Jerry and jfuh; even I have to love you...

Not that I would want to, but should you attempt to "hit me between the eyes" I will strike back.

This is the idea, - if I could think that you could be weaker than I, I would not de tempted. Most of my fights happened with people who were stronger or thought that they were stronger than I. Otherwise I would not be a nut, would I?
But, but... - why do you think that the Devil has a chance to win and to make me? So far I have been dealing with my temptations quite well.

I dont walk in anywhere checking to see if people are on my list. I dont expect anyone to live up to my standards, just their own; - my s***list: Socialists, Religion, Hypocrites, Bigots, Prohibitionists, Censors, Fascists, Protectionists, Blind Nationalists, Big Brother/Government, Authoritarians, PNAC, Lobbyists, Collectivists, Revisionists, War Mongers, and Nihilists

yeah, tell me that again,... and again...

What was it in my post or signature that got you so riled up?

Just did not like to see myself in your s***t list in multiple positions. Now I am in you list, you are in my list, I am a nut, you are a **tt.

 

[dsanthony]

What moral principles do you use to guide you, and where do you get them from?

The bible? if so, how do you determain which passages to use?

If you dont use the bible or another external source to judge right from wrong, what do you use? is there any single principle from which all morality can be based? is it a set of principles?

It's based loosely on the categorial imperative... though my reason and experience guide me more than empathy.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

You are a slow thinker…

What statements have I made that gives you that impression?

Of course, if they are Jerry and jfuh; even I have to love you...

Actually I live in an apartment complex of mostly businessmen and upper level college students.

This is the idea, - if I could think that you could be weaker than I, I would not de tempted. Most of my fights happened with people who were stronger or thought that they were stronger than I. Otherwise I would not be a nut, would I?
But, but... - why do you think that the Devil has a chance to win and to make me? So far I have been dealing with my temptations quite well.

I said that you're a nut because you advocated unprovoked violence against me. And now also because you attempt to make the devil your scapegoat for your own ill will.

yeah, tell me that again,... and again...

Just because I dont like whatever ideology you follow doesnt mean that I will write you off as a person. My best friend is a cop and an all out authoritarian and religious fundamentalist, and we get along fine. You just probably dont spend much time with people who disagree with you or dont think like you.

Just did not like to see myself in your s***t list in multiple positions. Now I am in you list, you are in my list, I am a nut, you are a **tt.

And which one(s) were you?

Let me guess, you're a faithful theocrat whos supports prohibition, censorship and may possibly harbor bigotry.... making you a hypocrite? (Just trying to squeeze in as many as I can)

 

[justone]

What statements have I made that gives you that impression?

It took you too much time to figure out for sure that I was WOW…

Actually I live in an apartment complex of mostly businessmen and upper level college students.

That makes it safe for me – I own a house on an acre, with high green bushes and trees protecting me from anybody’s view. But I understand your temptation to introduce yourself as a part of “upper’’ level. I am too experiencing a temptation to build a house in an upscale community – development two streets down from me, mostly because of my close relations with the developer. Please talk me out of it. It would be such a stretch that I would never be able to afford talking to you.

I said that you're a nut because you advocated unprovoked violence against me.

Unprovoked? You mean one can feel unprovoked when you walk into a room,………………………… carrying your list? Even so, I did not advocate violence; I was against immediate violence in spite of the obvious reason for it – to do something for the sake of good of humanity. I was fighting a good reason.

And now also because you attempt to make the devil your scapegoat for your own ill will.

Thanks. You’ve found a way to make me smile after a long work day. I feel better. I should make fun out of you, but it would be too much for me for today... Just a short boring lecture:
Scapegoat: One that is made to bear the blame of others.
Thus, devil should something separate from me, so I would blame it for my problems. When I say ‘’devil made me’’ – where do I see the object of my blame? When I say ‘’devil tempted me but I won’’, - where is the position of the source of temptation, and what was my victory. Saying ‘’devil made me’’ I accept that I have done something utterly bad, evil, and I have no excuse. The only good is that I am realizing it, so it is not an end of my life ( as it actually should be)and it is not an end for my hope for good (as it actually should be). Such a belief is not compatible with your secular humanism. You are capable only of saying that you have done such a thing on the base of your logic and reasoning, but you’re accepting that it was a mistake in your logic and reasoning, because another logic and reasoning have made you change your mind, (and then there may be another reasoning which would return you to your first position). It all depends on logic and reasoning. There is no devil, no good for you. You are all good as long as you follow logic and reasoning.
Christians talk about an attempt to recognize what is good and what is evil independently from our personal ill will. Christians presumably are not all good to be sure that all we do for good is good. We have to recognize and fight calls of evil inside us on the base of the comparing it to the absolute good postulated as a standard. In order to make things easier we have a single manual postulated as the absolute to refer to.
My devil, I was talking about, was tempting me from inside, as a part of me, working against my good. My good inside had to 1. Define it as a Devil. 2. Had to have an absolute (where reasons stop) standard to compare it with 3. Fight it.
Devil does not introduce himself as an ill will, but as a good and a logical and a reasonable thing to do. He was calling me to take some actions for the good of humanity. It could happen to anyone, who would try on the religion of secular humanism. I just tried to follow one of the primary concerns about humankind in general. So, what you see as my ill will is a primary concern of secular humanism, - calling to shiit in neighbor’s back yard and to carry s**t list for the neighbors to see for the good of secular humanism for humankind in general.
You can make a list of scapegoats, those who are not you and who are separate from you, those who are ‘’others’’ in the dictionary definition of ‘’scapegoat,’’ - but you would not feel the illness of your will. You cannot recignise temptation of devil inside you, because there is no devil for you. You know you are all good.
Just for me, to make me smile again, tell me again, that you’re all good, tell me you have no temptations, tell me you have no “others” to put in s**t and to bear the emotions you feel looking at them from above. No devil? Ha! I am brainwashed, I guess… Yeah, you forgot to mention that I was brainwashed.

Just because I dont like whatever ideology you follow doesnt mean that I will write you off as a person. My best friend is a cop and an all out authoritarian and religious fundamentalist, and we get along fine. You just probably dont spend much time with people who disagree with you or dont think like you.

I don’t know what your friend feels. I am not a cop, I am not all out authoritarian and I don’t even know what is religious fundamentalist, -- some of your labels. I guess your friend has to agree with the senseless labels you put on him in order to make you happy. Does he knows who a religious fundamentalist is; does he know he is the one? (And BTW I have no ideology as well as I have no moral principals.)

And which one(s) were you?

Let me guess, you're a faithful theocrat whos supports prohibition, censorship and may possibly harbor bigotry.... making you a hypocrite? (Just trying to squeeze in as many as I can)

You see, you look at me and try to squeeze in as many as you can…- makes you feel better about yourself. And then you say ‘’unprovoked’’… ? You also can add Fascism, Collectivists, War Mongers, Blind Nationalism; - and also if you ever wish to extend your list: Nazi, Neocon… The only possible exclusions may be Socialism, Nihilists, Lobbyists, and I don’t know what is PNAC.
Would wow type nuts have a hope to make the list? How’s about ignorance and a total lack of intelligence?

 

[tenseconds]

What moral principles do you use to guide you, and where do you get them from?

The bible? if so, how do you determain which passages to use?

If you dont use the bible or another external source to judge right from wrong, what do you use? is there any single principle from which all morality can be based? is it a set of principles?

Visualizing something better. :mrgreen:

 

[Spartacus FPV]

It took you too much time to figure out for sure that I was WOW…

Oh i've known you were a bit nutty, I had no idea you were up there with Aquapub. It didnt take me "too much time" considering this was your first time addressing me.

...But I understand your temptation to introduce yourself as a part of “upper’’ level....

I'm a college student, hardly upper level. Temptation?

Unprovoked? You mean one can feel unprovoked when you walk into a room,………………………… carrying your list? Even so, I did not advocate violence; I was against immediate violence in spite of the obvious reason for it – to do something for the sake of good of humanity. I was fighting a good reason.

To do something for the good of humanity? How very sanctimonious of you.

And just what about my "list" runs counter to "the good of humanity"?

Thanks. You’ve found a way to make me smile after a long work day. I feel better. I should make fun out of you, but it would be too much for me for today... Just a short boring lecture:

Here it goes... a lecture...

Scapegoat: One that is made to bear the blame of others.

Unless I used the word improperly, you need not cite the definition.

Thus, devil should something separate from me, so I would blame it for my problems.When I say ‘’devil made me’’ – where do I see the object of my blame? When I say ‘’devil tempted me but I won’’, - where is the position of the source of temptation, and what was my victory. Saying ‘’devil made me’’ I accept that I have done something utterly bad, evil, and I have no excuse.

Isnt blaming your actions on the devil an excuse?

The only good is that I am realizing it, so it is not an end of my life ( as it actually should be)and it is not an end for my hope for good (as it actually should be). Such a belief is not compatible with your secular humanism.

Go on...

You are capable only of saying that you have done such a thing on the base of your logic and reasoning, but you’re accepting that it was a mistake in your logic and reasoning, because another logic and reasoning have made you change your mind, (and then there may be another reasoning which would return you to your first position).

If I make a mistake I hold myself accountible, not the devil. And I dont sacrifice my reasoning for anyone elses. I am a skeptic and I demand to be proven wrong before I change my mind. Wrong so far, but lets go on...

It all depends on logic and reasoning. There is no devil, no good for you. You are all good as long as you follow logic and reasoning.

Without belief in the devil, there can be no good? Thats the logical fallacy of a false dilemma. Still wrong...

Christians talk about an attempt to recognize what is good and what is evil independently from our personal ill will. Christians presumably are not all good to be sure that all we do for good is good. We have to recognize and fight calls of evil inside us on the base of the comparing it to the absolute good postulated as a standard.

You lack reason for your "absolute good." You take it on faith in a book that advocates violence, slavery, murder and everything else I know no to be good. But im sure you'll write off the old testament as the "old covenant" that Christ replaced so I cant argue here. There is no counterpoint to a faith based arguement.

In order to make things easier we have a single manual postulated as the absolute to refer to.
My devil, I was talking about, was tempting me from inside, as a part of me, working against my good. My good inside had to 1. Define it as a Devil. 2. Had to have an absolute (where reasons stop) standard to compare it with 3. Fight it.

Is it so hard to understand that what I see you are fighting internally is not the devil, but your own self? Im not saying that I am right, im just curious if you're capable of either introspection or see'ing things from another point of view. Not everyone shares your religious beliefs.

Devil does not introduce himself as an ill will, but as a good and a logical and a reasonable thing to do. He was calling me to take some actions for the good of humanity. It could happen to anyone, who would try on the religion of secular humanism.

Secular humanism is not a religion. The only ones who try to call it so, just like atheism, need to believe that everyone follows a religion. I myself have nothing but contempt for religion and feel that ones faith should be kept between himself and his god. Should I quote Matthew 6:2?

I just tried to follow one of the primary concerns about humankind in general. So, what you see as my ill will is a primary concern of secular humanism, - calling to shiit in neighbor’s back yard and to carry s**t list for the neighbors to see for the good of secular humanism for humankind in general.

Where in secular humanism is the violation of someone else's private property logically "good."? I would love to understand that run-away train of logic.

You can make a list of scapegoats, those who are not you and who are separate from you, those who are ‘’others’’ in the dictionary definition of ‘’scapegoat,’’ - but you would not feel the illness of your will. You cannot recignise temptation of devil inside you, because there is no devil for you. You know you are all good.

Why do you insist on telling me my beliefs instead of going on what I say?

I dont know myself to be all good. I only try my best to live honestly, peacefully, and happily with those I care about.

Just for me, to make me smile again, tell me again, that you’re all good, tell me you have no temptations, tell me you have no “others” to put in s**t and to bear the emotions you feel looking at them from above. No devil? Ha! I am brainwashed, I guess… Yeah, you forgot to mention that I was brainwashed.

Again? Please quote me on the first time that I said "im all good, I have no temptations/" You're just making **** up, and I would call you a product of Christian socialization before I would use the term brainwashed.

I am tempted to do bad things every chance I figure that I would not get caught. I stop myself because my pride would never allow me to lie (self denial), steal (devalueing my own self worth) or use force (always wrong.)

I have no problems with Christians and have nothing but the utmost respect for Christ's teachings. My problem is with those who wish to control my actions, and are hypocrites to his teachings.

I don’t know what your friend feels. I am not a cop, I am not all out authoritarian and I don’t even know what is religious fundamentalist, -- some of your labels.

These arent my labels. Religious fundamentalism is precisely what this bullshit war on terror is about. And the Christian fundamentalists are the ones advocating for an American theocracy. I am very much opposed to them.

I guess your friend has to agree with the senseless labels you put on him in order to make you happy. Does he knows who a religious fundamentalist is; does he know he is the one? (And BTW I have no ideology as well as I have no moral principals.)

My friend knows who he is, and I respect his positions although I disagree with him. He is openly authoritarian and when it comes to his religion, he knows that his opinions should not be made into law. He holds the constitution above the bible when it comes to his job.

You see, you look at me and try to squeeze in as many as you can…- makes you feel better about yourself. And then you say ‘’unprovoked’’… ?

Oh its no longer unprovoked. It doesnt make me feel any better, only shame that you would call yourself American.

You also can add Fascism, Collectivists, War Mongers, Blind Nationalism;

Do you not understand the evils of fascism, communism, and blind nationalism? When I say war mongers I mean those to whom the ends justify the means. I will always disagree with such evil, and I cant believe your Christian values dont scream out to you the contradiction.

- and also if you ever wish to extend your list: Nazi, Neocon… The only possible exclusions may be Socialism, Nihilists, Lobbyists, and I don’t know what is PNAC.

PNAC is the Project for the New American Century. Neo Conservatives who advocate pre-emption, torture, and American imperialism.

Would wow type nuts have a hope to make the list? How’s about ignorance and a total lack of intelligence?

How I have I displayed ignorance or any lack of intelligence. I was joking when i was "squeezing those in" but im shocked that you would defend fascism.

Can you defend any of your positions?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Im not saying that I havent displayed ignorance. In fact I relish the opportunity for my own ignorance to be pointed out. Please, tell me something I havent heard.

 

[Thorgasm]

My moral system is based on logic.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

My moral system is based on logic.

Best answer so far, good man.

 

[Thorgasm]

Best answer so far, good man.

Thanks, it's the only logical system. :rofl

 

[Tinker]

"The first law is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength, the second is like the first, to love your neighbor as yourself." - Jesus Christ.

This is the basis for my moral system, but it is only the beginning. The rest of the Bible is important to me also.

128 - Islam and Humanism, now that is a combination.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

"The first law is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength, the second is like the first, to love your neighbor as yourself." - Jesus Christ.

This is the basis for my moral system, but it is only the beginning. The rest of the Bible is important to me also.

128 - Islam and Humanism, now that is a combination.

Where does rational self-interest come into play? If one lives only for the sake of others and god, can one have a self?

 

[128shot]

128 - Islam and Humanism, now that is a combination.

something I neglect to tell people. I'm an avid study of religion and I've pulled alot of stuff from Islam. I don't know why....but I did.


it mostly has to do with some societial and economic aspects, thats it.

No, this does not mean I'm religious. I'm still an athiest..

 

[Tinker]

Where does rational self-interest come into play? If one lives only for the sake of others and god, can one have a self?

Rational self interest - Malachi 3:10 - "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."

This is one example of 'Obedience demands a blessing'.

Here are a couple more, "In all your wys acknowledge him, and He will make your paths straight." - (or Acknowledge God in everything and he will either make your life easier, or at least easier for you to bear.)

The Bible is full of the promises of blessings in this life and the next for those who declare Jesus as Lord, and follow His teachings as well as those of His Father.

But probably the thing that gets me the most is the thought of "fall in love with Jesus". If you fall in love with someone, you will break your neck not to offend them or hurt them. You wll do just about anyhting for them. God simply wants us to fall in love with him.

It is funny that an athiest gets so much of his personal bliefs from religion. Might be somethign to think about. What are you longing and looking for that makes you keep coming back to religions to try to find it?

 

[Captain America]

Rational self interest - Malachi 3:10 - "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."

Damn, that's got to come in handy when that televangelist asks you put your hands on the screen and write out a check or when they pass that little plate around..

 

[Spartacus FPV]

It is funny that an athiest gets so much of his personal bliefs from religion.

What make you think I get any of my personal beliefs from religion?

Might be somethign to think about. What are you longing and looking for that makes you keep coming back to religions to try to find it?

I really dont know where you're getting this from, coming back? I study religion just as I do politics and philosophy. You'll find me quote matthews when argueing with Christian hypocrites and leviticus when debating bible literalists. But that doesnt mean I put any stock in the passages I quote.

 

[justone]

Oh i've known you were a bit nutty, I had no idea you were up there with Aquapub. It didnt take me "too much time" considering this was your first time addressing me.

Competition, competition…. Who is Aquapub? He cannot be more than I.. It was not 1st time

Isnt blaming your actions on the devil an excuse?

You are totally ignoring what I am saying. You were sleeping during the lecture.
Please. Pay attention. Explaining your actions by devil, is accepting that they are a pure evil, no reasonable excuses ( justification, explanation) may be given; there is no time and no place for excuses and other words. I cannot blame devil for my ill will, because my ill will is devil, or, at least, a sensible part of Devil. I cannot blame ill will for ill will, - you had been taught a logical nonsense. I went into some details. If you don’t get a part of explanation, ask about the part; but if you keep on repeating like a parrot… No it is not, it is highlighting the absence of an excuse. You are the one who can make up excuses using words, logic, reasons…

To do something for the good of humanity? How very sanctimonious of you. And just what about my "list" runs counter to "the good of humanity"?

I explained. I am a part of humanity, so you would know. It runs counter my good. I also explained: it was not very sanctimonious of me - I said it was a temptation, = “’very sanctimonious”’ of devil.

If I make a mistake I hold myself accountible, not the devil. And I dont sacrifice my reasoning for anyone elses. I am a skeptic and I demand to be proven wrong before I change my mind. Wrong so far, but lets go on...

You are totally ignoring what I am saying. This is exactly what I am saying: you demand to be proven wrong…. by whom? By anyone else. You BY LOGIC do not hold yourself accountable, unless you are proven by somebody else. And somebody else has to be proven by somebody else, and so on, there is no absolute,… you just go in circles, staying all good. You just do mistakes, miscalculations… And how do you know it is a mistake, - because of somebody’s reasons and somebody’s words… Today you are proven you have done a mistake, tomorrow you are proven it has not been a mistake…

Without belief in the devil, there can be no good? Thats the logical fallacy of a false dilemma. Still wrong...

You are totally ignoring what I am saying.
There is no devil, no good for you. You are all good as long as you follow your logic and reasoning. Yes, it can – in you view, as I said. No, for me. Putting ‘’religion’’ aside, it is a dialectical pair–unity. Bringing the religion back – good exists as an opposite to evil, devil, Satan, as a choice. You think, there is ‘’good in itself”’, by itself…

You lack reason for your "absolute good."

You are totally ignoring what I am saying.

Yes, I do. I have told you it is a self-evident POSTULATE. Did not I said postulate? Postulates are unavoidable, - whatever you are talking about,- if you want to develop and consider a system of interconnected elements. It is something which does not change and works in any part of the system however far away we are from the beginning. The postulate has to be as short and simple as possible.
As soon as you put my ‘’absolute’’ in beginning, and in all, and in any aspect of human life it works like a charm; as soon as you take away a part of it or substitute it by any other construction (secular humanism is just an example), or lacking postulates by logic and reason which can be proven/defeated by another logic and reason, which can be proven/defeated by another logic and reason – you are calling – as history shows - for a disaster. If you do not follow the word of God, G-d sends disasters. G-d has to demonstrate himself, otherwise we would not have an idea that He exists, would we? You put His word in any life equation, and it works like a charm; and it allows building of new equations without a need for new postulates in the middle of the road, “as we go”. Tell me again that the Bible advocates violence, slavery, murder, but your logic and reason (of uncertain and scattered sources with postulates made up ‘’ as we go’’) do not.

You take it on faith in a book that advocates violence, slavery, murder and everything else I know no to be good.

Does it advocate? Please repeat it for me…

But I’m sure you'll write off the old testament as the "old covenant" that Christ replaced so I cant argue here.

If I cannot believe in G-d in OT, how would I believe in Christ in NT?

There is no counterpoint to a faith based argument.

True, but it is not applicable here. I just explained to you that you were absolutely wrong with a devil as a scapegoat. It was not argument- it was an explanation of something you had no clue about. You were told that I used devil as a scapegoat to blame for my ill will, - as something/somebody outside of myself to blame. I explained to you that teachers of your logic were lying. Devil could not be outside me, at least by the definition. Devil could not be “others” (circumstances, upbringing, reasons). I told you that in your terms, since the devil was inside me I was blaming myself, and by blaming devil I was rejecting any reasonable excuses, scientific explanations of my ill will. No reasons, no logic, no excuses – it is pure evil, pure devil of my actions and my will. If you don’t get a part of explanation ask about the part, but if you keep on repeating like a parrot…

Secular humanism is not a religion. The only ones who try to call it so, just like atheism, need to believe that everyone follows a religion.

I know, there is such a belief. I expected you to protest. Secular humanism must be a scientific knowledge about all aspect of human nature, must be proven to be a final philosophy opening the door to the bright future of humanity, where there is no Devil (and no G-d) , must be the only true moral principals, must be nothing, just a joke… There is no way to prove to you, isn’t it? Logic and reason…. Atheism is anti-religion, secular humanism is pretty much of atheism. Well, black is not white. Both are colors. Secular atheism is not a religion. Atheism does not have an organization like religion does. If there is an organization it can be mathematically described. The mathematical description of atheism is certainly different from the mathematical description of religion…. but math is still the same… the math does not change whatever it describes, - because it starts from postulates. Your color is not white, it is opposite, you organization is not Church, it is different… but it makes no difference for my math…

Why do you insist on telling me my beliefs instead of going on what I say?

Devil made me,… got carried away a bit, trying to show you what I read in your statements. You are telling me words and I am guessing your believes, if I am wrong you would have no problem to correct me.

I dont know myself to be all good. I only try my best to live honestly, peacefully, and happily with those I care about.

These are the slogans. All good slogans. When you APPLY them to life they lead you to demonstrating your s**t and making s**t lists. I guess they are good for making s**t lists. If you don’t know yourself to be all good, how you deal with the part which is all bad? And the part, - which is all bad in all of us, whatever we do, - is called….. how do you call the bad part?

I am tempted to do bad things every chance I figure that I would not get caught. I stop myself because my pride would never allow me to lie (self denial), steal (devalueing my own self worth) or use force (always wrong.)

It is a description of a saint. I was trying to put my dirty foot in the very depth of your soul… I don’t insist. Stay a saint. I am the worst object for you confessions…
But, you have to provide a reasonable explanation – why such a good boy is tempted to do bad things. You have been raised in generations to be all good, you have been reading good books and having good teachers, - all over suddenly you feel like doing bad, - actually with absolutely no reason, - worse than any animal, because animals cannot lie or steal, they cannot even have a thought about lying and stealing… Humans have not changed since the time when Moses brought them the commandments, haven’t they? Unless you want to come up with Freud’s theories?

Reason and logic call you to steal – “I figure that I would not get caught’’, but you abandon your logic for the sake of “pride’’, - you are making a new postulate as you go, “on fly”’. What pride does make you abandon your pride of your logic?

I have no problems with Christians and have nothing but the utmost respect for Christ's teachings.

If it was so you would not include religion and faith in your s**t list, you would not express the utter contempt towards faith, - or may be it is your secular way to demonstrate your secular respect?

My problem is with those who wish to control my actions, and are hypocrites to his teachings.

Do you feel anger? Have you ever been tempted by a blind anger, another sensible part of devil?

How can Christians - with their belief, that you have a choice to believe and be saved, or not to believe and burn eternally, - can control your actions? Are you so scared of burning? Do you feel tempted to hit the hypocrites between their eyes, in the same way as I do? Do you feel tempted to help Christians to cleanse their community from hypocrites? Are you afraid, they will not be burning in hell

 

[justone]

the Christian fundamentalists are the ones advocating for an American theocracy. I am very much opposed to them.

And I am not. It would be too much. I never watch those movies, they are a totally Hollywood. I get through most of them on fast forward, if I rent by a mistake. You would need some kind of a global nuclear war, a super disaster with the most of us dead in order to give a chance to an American theocracy. Please believe to my sure feelings, G-d will never allow a Christian theocracy in US. I am telling you, as a Christian fundamentalist. It is fundamental.
BTW what denomination does call itself Christian fundamentalists? I have been looking to join…

Do you not understand the evils of fascism, communism, and blind nationalism? When I say war mongers I mean those to whom the ends justify the means. I will always disagree with such evil,

Oh, Oh , Oh , - now you're talking about evil? And I guess you are talking about an absolute evil? And where did it come from?
The problem is - I do understand. I have experienced those personally . And looking at you I feel flashbacks…
Where did it come from? How did it happen? Started from labeling and expressing an utter contempt, and humanism as moral principals…

and I cant believe your Christian values dont scream out to you the contradiction.

Sometimes your logic does not let you down – if you cannot believe, it may not be true.

PNAC is the Project for the New American Century. Neo Conservatives who advocate pre-emption, torture, and American imperialism.

OK, since I have been proven to be a Neocon, I guess, I have to sign up. Add another position for me in your list.

How I have I displayed ignorance or any lack of intelligence. I was joking when i was "squeezing those in" but im shocked that you would defend fascism.

I don’t know how you could misunderstand. It was MY ignorance or MY lack of intelligence which had been proven many times by many humanists here, - as well as they proved that I was a fascist, Neocon, war monger, and I forgot what else. Ignorance or any lack of intelligence of humanists cannot be questioned.

Where did you see I was defending fascism? I was talking only about myself. I had been trying to prove to humanists by logic and reason that I was not a fascist; they diagnosed me with ignorance and lack of intelligence; then I got tempted to use another kind of arguments, and asked if anybody else was tempted in the same way… that’s all

 

[Spartacus FPV]

You are totally ignoring what I am saying. You were sleeping during the lecture.
Please. Pay attention. Explaining your actions by devil, is accepting that they are a pure evil, no reasonable excuses ( justification, explanation) may be given; there is no time and no place for excuses and other words. I cannot blame devil for my ill will, because my ill will is devil, or, at least, a sensible part of Devil. I cannot blame ill will for ill will, - you had been taught a logical nonsense. I went into some details. If you don’t get a part of explanation, ask about the part; but if you keep on repeating like a parrot… No it is not, it is highlighting the absence of an excuse. You are the one who can make up excuses using words, logic, reasons…

You got me there, resorting to words, logic and reason = making up excuses. I guess Alexander Pope was right, you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

I explained. I am a part of humanity, so you would know. It runs counter my good. I also explained: it was not very sanctimonious of me - I said it was a temptation, = “’very sanctimonious”’ of devil.

What utter tripe, answer my question! Which items in my shitlist run counter to the good of humanity.

You are totally ignoring what I am saying. This is exactly what I am saying: you demand to be proven wrong…. by whom? By anyone else. You BY LOGIC do not hold yourself accountable, unless you are proven by somebody else.

I hold myself accountible for mistakes in action, not in logic. If im right I win, if i'm wrong, I learn and grow as a person, so I win. Is the fact that debate is a win win for me unfair to you?

And somebody else has to be proven by somebody else, and so on, there is no absolute,… you just go in circles, staying all good.

Not in circles, in growth.

You just do mistakes, miscalculations… And how do you know it is a mistake, - because of somebody’s reasons and somebody’s words… Today you are proven you have done a mistake, tomorrow you are proven it has not been a mistake…

You're making the mistake of thinking that I miscalculate or make errors frequently. If I have, point them out. I want to know specifically what fallacy there is in my logic, or what contradictions there are in my reasons.

You are totally ignoring what I am saying.
There is no devil, no good for you. You are all good as long as you follow your logic and reasoning. Yes, it can – in you view, as I said. No, for me. Putting ‘’religion’’ aside, it is a dialectical pair–unity. Bringing the religion back – good exists as an opposite to evil, devil, Satan, as a choice. You think, there is ‘’good in itself”’, by itself…

Stop repeating yourself like a parrot. Dont confuse belittling your arguements with ignoring them. I address each one head on. And that whole statement was a false dichotomy.

Just because there is no devil doesnt mean that there is no wrong. I dont believe in any organised form of evil conspiring for the souls of mankind. WHen you use words like satan, devil, and evil I just equate them with what you consider to be wrong. And not literally a humanoid descended angel who lives in an intangible plane of existence.

My capacity for logic and reason is not infallible, and can lead me to error. But I learn from my mistakes, just as I learn from those who can articulate my failures. There is good in it of itself.

You are totally ignoring what I am saying.

Squak!

... (secular humanism is just an example), or lacking postulates by logic and reason which can be proven/defeated by another logic and reason, which can be proven/defeated by another logic and reason – you are calling – as history shows - for a disaster.

Poor logic can be overcome by superior logic, how is this disastrous??

If you do not follow the word of God, G-d sends disasters. G-d has to demonstrate himself, otherwise we would not have an idea that He exists, would we? You put His word in any life equation, and it works like a charm; and it allows building of new equations without a need for new postulates in the middle of the road, “as we go”.

Oh? God demonstrates himself now? Please do tell, where the breaking news? I would love proof of this. I do not follow the word of god, because such words have not been provided by a god, unless you again have proof, and not articles of faith.

Tell me again that the Bible advocates violence, slavery, murder, but your logic and reason (of uncertain and scattered sources with postulates made up ‘’ as we go’’) do not.

Does it advocate? Please repeat it for me…

If I cannot believe in G-d in OT, how would I believe in Christ in NT?

So you take Leviticus literally? Oh i'll "repeat" it, and I quote:

20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.

How about Deuteronomy
22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.
20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.
7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Shall I go on?

True, but it is not applicable here. I just explained to you that you were absolutely wrong with a devil as a scapegoat. It was not argument- it was an explanation of something you had no clue about.

Thats cute, you were just blathering tripe. Either you are responsible for your actions or are you not?

You were told that I used devil as a scapegoat to blame for my ill will, - as something/somebody outside of myself to blame. I explained to you that teachers of your logic were lying. Devil could not be outside me, at least by the definition. Devil could not be “others” (circumstances, upbringing, reasons). I told you that in your terms, since the devil was inside me I was blaming myself, and by blaming devil I was rejecting any reasonable excuses, scientific explanations of my ill will. No reasons, no logic, no excuses – it is pure evil, pure devil of my actions and my will. If you don’t get a part of explanation ask about the part, but if you keep on repeating like a parrot…

I have only repeated myself where you have attempted circular logic. The teachers of my logic have not lied to me, I merely asked you a question. You keep talking about pure devil of your actions. So do you admit accountibility for wrong doing, is this "pure devil" not you yourself and a part of your personality and nature? (And you accused me of using false labels, just call a spade a spade.)

There is no way to prove to you, isn’t it? Logic and reason….

Those are the means to proving something to me. But you must provide proof, not beliefs or baseless assertions.

Atheism is anti-religion

Not quite, it just isnt religious. "Anti" pre-supposes that religion is the default position.

secular humanism is pretty much of atheism. Well, black is not white. Both are colors. Secular atheism is not a religion. Atheism does not have an organization like religion does.

Secular humanism is not necessarily atheistic, but other than that I agree so far.

If there is an organization it can be mathematically described. The mathematical description of atheism is certainly different from the mathematical description of religion…. but math is still the same… the math does not change whatever it describes, - because it starts from postulates. Your color is not white, it is opposite, you organization is not Church, it is different… but it makes no difference for my math…

I had no idea there was math involved in theology. Does that make it a science now?

Devil made me,… got carried away a bit, trying to show you what I read in your statements. You are telling me words and I am guessing your believes, if I am wrong you would have no problem to correct me.

Fair enough.