What is your advice?

[Catawba]

So if income goes down, but other debt costs don't go up, someone can still reliably pay their bills?
Really?

What kind of crazy math is that?

You are still missing the point, intentionally now I think, because it is the only way to try to save face.

Your example of costs of decreased income due to sickness was occurring in 1976, was it not?

So that income loss wasn't a factor in the sharp increase in bankruptcies during the period of bankruptcy increases.

But what factor did increase from 76? Health care costs.


Do you get it now? If not, I'll try to get others to help explain it to you.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

You are still missing the point, intentionally now I think, because it is the only way to try to save face.

Your example of costs of decreased income due to sickness was occurring in 1976, was it not?

So that income loss wasn't a factor in the sharp increase in bankruptcies during the period of bankruptcy increases.

But what factor did increase from 76? Health care costs.


Do you get it now? If not, I'll try to get others to help explain it to you.

Yes, medical costs have increased.

How does the disprove anything I said?

 

[BDBoop]

Which modern industrialized nation does not have universal medical care?

It's always easy to defend a broken system when you're one of the insured. The amount of self-centered "I got mine, **** you" in this thread is disgusting.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

It's always easy to defend a broken system when you're one of the insured. The amount of self-centered "I got mine, **** you" in this thread is disgusting.

Who said that?
I'd like to see a direct link please.

 

[Catawba]

Who said that?
I'd like to see a direct link please.

Do you have a guilty conscience?

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Do you have a guilty conscience?

Not at all.
I'd like to see these untrue words proven.

You want to give it a try?

 

[Alyssa]

And how many of those people, lost income due to the illness (which would happen whether or not they had any type of insurance) and also bankrupted on large amounts of consumer debt?

Lies, damn lies and your statistics.

Having experienced a similar situation in my own family, I can support the accuracy of those statistics.

Illness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs.

The study estimates that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans annually -- counting debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children.

Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by illness had health insurance. More than three-quarters were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. However, 38 percent had lost coverage at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy.

Most of the medical bankruptcy filers were middle class; 56 percent owned a home and the same number had attended college. In many cases, illness forced breadwinners to take time off from work -- losing income and job-based health insurance precisely when families needed it most.

Families in bankruptcy suffered many privations -- 30 percent had a utility cut off and 61 percent went without needed medical care.

Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds

As far as charities are concerned, I'm sure some people can find that kind of assistance. But that's not available for the majority of Americans in these situations.

 

[winston53660]

Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds

As far as charities are concerned, I'm sure some people can find that kind of assistance. But that's not available for the majority of Americans in these situations.

Part of getting assistance is your financial situation in most cases. So going bankrupt being broke can actually help in getting assistance.

 

[Alyssa]

Part of getting assistance is your financial situation in most cases. So going bankrupt being broke can actually help in getting assistance.

Yes, but in most cases that assistance comes from government or para government agencies instead of private charities.

 

[winston53660]

Yes, but in most cases that assistance comes from government or para government agencies instead of private charities.

Having full disability has been a life saver for me

And I'm facing one of the most expensive operations one can get, heart transplant.

 

[Tucker Case]

Let's make this real simple.
You have bills, including debt.
You get sick and can no longer work for a period of time.
You have no income, bills don't get paid.
What happens next?

The staggering medical bills you receive threaten to eat away at your reserve savings until you are left with nothing to pay for your mortgage, utility bills, and food.

Most of the people I know who have gotten slammed on medical bills actually had a healthy reserve account for a situation where they could not work due to illness or injury. They set up their accounts based on the nut they were currently paying monthly. i.e. add up all of the monthly expenses and multiply it by some numberr of months (minimum of six) and make sure you have at least that much in reserves for a rainy day situation.

The key point is that they use their current expenses. In such a situation, they are good to go for at least 6 months regardless of whether or not they lose their income because they have enough in reserves to cover it.

But the problem is that they don't (and actually can't) account for the medical bills. My father's accident racked up 500,000K in medical bills in just 1 month, for example. His reserves were about $60,000, which is a pretty healthy supply in the reserves, if you ask me, and it covered his bills for quite some time, since he was still capable of earning a decent income, even in a coma, by way of our family construction company.

But, with the astronomical costs of his care, that didn't come close to covering the medical costs that his insurance did not cover.

So he lost his home, depleted his reserves and still had a mountain of medical bills that he owed.


And remember, most insurance have caps at around 2,000,000. One six-month coma and that cap is reached and then some. But, if someone has earning potntial even in that coma, say as the owner of a succesful company, they can't get on any of the current goverment assistance programs to help pay for medical costs and there's no chance in hell an insurance carrier is going to take on a self-employed person who is currently in a coma. So the only option said person has is to actually give up their income earning potential by shutting the company down (or have that decision made for them by the other people within the company) and get on medicaid.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying that universal health care is the answer, but there's no doubt in my mind that medical bills alone can be the determining factor in a bankruptcy, even when a person has done all the right things financially and can earn income while paying their bills.

 

[Tucker Case]

Part of getting assistance is your financial situation in most cases. So going bankrupt being broke can actually help in getting assistance.

That's exactly what my father had to do.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Now, I'm not necessarily saying that universal health care is the answer, but there's no doubt in my mind that medical bills alone can be the determining factor in a bankruptcy, even when a person has done all the right things financially and can earn income while paying their bills.

No question. A prudent individual can plan for a time of emergency, but not for half a million in medical bills. The root cause of the problem is cost increases that are way beyond inflation.

To illustrate: When my son was born in 1969, the cost of a normal childbirth and an overnight stay in the hospital was $250. When my grandson was born in 2001, the cost had increased to over $10,000, more than 40 times as much. Of course, everything cost more in 2001 than it did in 1969, but certainly not that much more. A meal in a decent but not fancy restaurant in '69 cost around 2-3 bucks or so. It doesn't cost $80-120 to eat at Denny's or a similar place even today. Gas cost 25 cents in '69. Even with OPEC putting its fingers on the scale, it didn't cost $10 then, and still doesn't today. A 3,000 1969 automobile still is far short of $120,000, and is a lot better car to boot.


The root of the problem is that medical costs have increased way faster than inflation. The fact of the matter is that every nation except the US has a universal medical care system, and all of them pay far less than we do.

We could conclude from that a universal medical care system would help control costs. We'd better conclude that controlling costs, and soon, is a high priority.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

The staggering medical bills you receive threaten to eat away at your reserve savings until you are left with nothing to pay for your mortgage, utility bills, and food.

Most of the people I know who have gotten slammed on medical bills actually had a healthy reserve account for a situation where they could not work due to illness or injury. They set up their accounts based on the nut they were currently paying monthly. i.e. add up all of the monthly expenses and multiply it by some numberr of months (minimum of six) and make sure you have at least that much in reserves for a rainy day situation.

The key point is that they use their current expenses. In such a situation, they are good to go for at least 6 months regardless of whether or not they lose their income because they have enough in reserves to cover it.

But the problem is that they don't (and actually can't) account for the medical bills. My father's accident racked up 500,000K in medical bills in just 1 month, for example. His reserves were about $60,000, which is a pretty healthy supply in the reserves, if you ask me, and it covered his bills for quite some time, since he was still capable of earning a decent income, even in a coma, by way of our family construction company.

But, with the astronomical costs of his care, that didn't come close to covering the medical costs that his insurance did not cover.

So he lost his home, depleted his reserves and still had a mountain of medical bills that he owed.


And remember, most insurance have caps at around 2,000,000. One six-month coma and that cap is reached and then some. But, if someone has earning potntial even in that coma, say as the owner of a succesful company, they can't get on any of the current goverment assistance programs to help pay for medical costs and there's no chance in hell an insurance carrier is going to take on a self-employed person who is currently in a coma. So the only option said person has is to actually give up their income earning potential by shutting the company down (or have that decision made for them by the other people within the company) and get on medicaid.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying that universal health care is the answer, but there's no doubt in my mind that medical bills alone can be the determining factor in a bankruptcy, even when a person has done all the right things financially and can earn income while paying their bills.

I didn't say they weren't part of it but was pointing out that it wasn't that alone.
Also note, most people don't have that kind of savings.

IIRC, the study said that people have over $5k in medical bills on average but not something as high as half a million.
What that tells me, is that is wasn't the medical bills alone but a combination of other bills + the medical combined.

For most people, it doesn't seem like UHC was the answer but rather some sort of short or long term disability plan.

 

[Alyssa]

I didn't say they weren't part of it but was pointing out that it wasn't that alone.
Also note, most people don't have that kind of savings.

IIRC, the study said that people have over $5k in medical bills on average but not something as high as half a million.
What that tells me, is that is wasn't the medical bills alone but a combination of other bills + the medical combined.

Yes, of course there are other bills. If what you're trying to get at is that people are living beyond their means, then I agree. Sadly, most people waste hours of their lives watching tv, and the media tells them to consume in order to fill the void in their lives. So that's what they do regardless of the fact that their jobs are being outsourced, and the CEOs lay off thousands while giving themselves multi million dollar raises.

 

[BDBoop]

Yes, it's from the Franken thread. But he makes some really excellent points.

 

[Tucker Case]

IIRC, the study said that people have over $5k in medical bills on average but not something as high as half a million.
What that tells me, is that is wasn't the medical bills alone but a combination of other bills + the medical combined.

Good point. I actually didn't read the study. If the average is only 5K, it would definitely seem that there are other contributing factors in the BK's in most cases since $5,000 or so is something that can easily be dealt with through a payment plan or other means.

When I was about 19, I had a similarly sized medical bill (I think it was about 4800 that wasn't covered by my insurance) when I had nerve reconstruction done to my hand, which kept me out of work. I worked out a payment plan for it based on the estimated down time I would have (which was 3 months, but I went back to work in about three weeks :lol

For most people, it doesn't seem like UHC was the answer but rather some sort of short or long term disability plan.

I'd say that's fairly accurate for those who have outstanding bills in the 4 digit range, but the 5 or 6 digit variety would be difficult for anyone to deal with, regardless of whether or not they had disability insurance.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Good point. I actually didn't read the study. If the average is only 5K, it would definitely seem that there are other contributing factors in the BK's in most cases since $5,000 or so is something that can easily be dealt with through a payment plan or other means.

I do understand that there are extra ordinary cases where the costs go beyond the 4 and 5 figure mark.
My point wasn't to say they don't matter but that people using a simple headline, to make a stance on an issue is dumb, in my opinion.

When I was about 19, I had a similarly sized medical bill (I think it was about 4800 that wasn't covered by my insurance) when I had nerve reconstruction done to my hand, which kept me out of work. I worked out a payment plan for it based on the estimated down time I would have (which was 3 months, but I went back to work in about three weeks :lol

In the past 10 years, I've gone to the doctor twice.
I think the most I've paid was $100 or so.

It's a been a while though.

I do expect to have knee surgery in the next 5-10 years though.
I have a nasty feeling I'll need pins put in.

I'd say that's fairly accurate for those who have outstanding bills in the 4 digit range, but the 5 or 6 digit variety would be difficult for anyone to deal with, regardless of whether or not they had disability insurance.

Of course.
I'm open minded about this debate, however, I'm having to combat the virulent people who do not care for anything other than a government funded single payer system.

I think the system that Singapore uses would be best for us, although I do not think we would achieve the 3% of GDP numbers because Asians typically have overall better health than non Asians.
I think we could get to 6-8% if we implemented all the necessary reforms.

 

[Alyssa]

I do like many aspects of the single payer system. However, I have a natural fear and distrust of Big Government so I can't will myself to wholeheartedly support UHC.

 

[Tucker Case]

I do understand that there are extra ordinary cases where the costs go beyond the 4 and 5 figure mark.
My point wasn't to say they don't matter but that people using a simple headline, to make a stance on an issue is dumb, in my opinion.

Fair enough.

In the past 10 years, I've gone to the doctor twice.
I think the most I've paid was $100 or so.

It's a been a while though.

I only go to the doctor for really serious injuries, but having come form a construction background and being a small bit clumsy means that I've had to go a fair amount in the last 15 years or so. If I got away with a simple $100 I'd have been very happy. Usually my costs ran about a grand per visit with the biggest one being that surgery I mentioned (shot a nail through my hand and severed the nerve. Ironically, I ended up actually getting treatment for the hand after breaking my foot a month afte rI shot the nai9l through it because I realized that since I was going to be off with a busted foot, I might as well chack out what I could do for the hand, but the surgery didn't come until a month or so after I went to the doctor for the first time because they wanted to be sure it was a fully severed nerve before doing the surgery.)

I do expect to have knee surgery in the next 5-10 years though.
I have a nasty feeling I'll need pins put in.

That won't be cheap, from what I hear. Luckily,despite having broken more bones than I could list readily, I only have had that one surgery.

I think the system that Singapore uses would be best for us, although I do not think we would achieve the 3% of GDP numbers because Asians typically have overall better health than non Asians.
I think we could get to 6-8% if we implemented all the necessary reforms.

I'm not familiar with their system, I'll have to check it out.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

I only go to the doctor for really serious injuries, but having come form a construction background and being a small bit clumsy means that I've had to go a fair amount in the last 15 years or so. If I got away with a simple $100 I'd have been very happy. Usually my costs ran about a grand per visit with the biggest one being that surgery I mentioned (shot a nail through my hand and severed the nerve. Ironically, I ended up actually getting treatment for the hand after breaking my foot a month afte rI shot the nai9l through it because I realized that since I was going to be off with a busted foot, I might as well chack out what I could do for the hand, but the surgery didn't come until a month or so after I went to the doctor for the first time because they wanted to be sure it was a fully severed nerve before doing the surgery.)

Ouch.
I don't do construction but factory labor is wearing my knee down.
I can feel it.

That won't be cheap, from what I hear. Luckily,despite having broken more bones than I could list readily, I only have had that one surgery.

Probably cost me about $2-4000 out of pocket.
I'll put it off until it becomes necessary though.

I'm not familiar with their system, I'll have to check it out.

Healthcare in Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty good system.
Could completely replace Medicare taxes.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Medical bills can top five grand in a hurry. Just one MRI, for example, is likely to be more than that. Luckily, most of us don't have high bills as a routine problem. It's the huge unexpected bills that the average person just can't pay.

What we really need is a universal major medical program that pays for unaffordable medical costs, while making it possible for the patient to pay routine bills out of pocket. That way, the marketplace would rein in costs, and neither individuals nor employers would have to foot huge bills for medical insurance.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Medical bills can top five grand in a hurry. Just one MRI, for example, is likely to be more than that. Luckily, most of us don't have high bills as a routine problem. It's the huge unexpected bills that the average person just can't pay.

What we really need is a universal major medical program that pays for unaffordable medical costs, while making it possible for the patient to pay routine bills out of pocket. That way, the marketplace would rein in costs, and neither individuals nor employers would have to foot huge bills for medical insurance.

Healthcare in Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the answer you seek.
Of course that would come with a repeal of all those mandatory coverage things, among other major reforms, that no one will support wide scale.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Healthcare in Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the answer you seek.
Of course that would come with a repeal of all those mandatory coverage things, among other major reforms, that no one will support wide scale.

Healthcare in Singapore is mainly under the responsibility of the Singapore Government's Ministry of Health. Singapore generally has an efficient and widespread system of healthcare. Singapore was ranked 6th in the World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems in the year 2000.[1]

Singapore has a universal healthcare system where government ensures affordability, largely through compulsory savings and price controls, while the private sector provides most care. Overall spending on healthcare amounts to only 3% of annual GDP. Of that, 66% comes from private sources.[2] Singapore currently has the lowest infant mortality rate in the world (equaled only by Iceland) and among the highest life expectancies from birth, according to the World Health Organization.[3] Singapore has "one of the most successful healthcare systems in the world, in terms of both efficiency in financing and the results achieved in community health outcomes," according to an analysis by global consulting firm Watson Wyatt.[4] Singapore's system uses a combination of compulsory savings from payroll deductions (funded by both employers and workers) a nationalized catastrophic health insurance plan, and government subsidies, as well as "actively regulating the supply and prices of healthcare services in the country" to keep costs in check; the specific features have been described as potentially a "very difficult system to replicate in many other countries." Many Singaporeans also have supplemental private health insurance (often provided by employers) for services not covered by the government's programs.[4]

A universal health care system that costs, as a percent of GDP, less than 1/5 of what ours does, and has better outcomes than we have.

Of course, we couldn't do that. It would be unAmerican. We must have the most expensive system available. And we do.

 

[Tucker Case]

Healthcare in Singapore is mainly under the responsibility of the Singapore Government's Ministry of Health. Singapore generally has an efficient and widespread system of healthcare. Singapore was ranked 6th in the World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems in the year 2000.[1]



A universal health care system that costs, as a percent of GDP, less than 1/5 of what ours does, and has better outcomes than we have.

Of course, we couldn't do that. It would be unAmerican. We must have the most expensive system available. And we do.

He's recommending that kind of system, so I doubt he considers it unAmerican.