What is socialism?

[nkgupta80]

Apparently Marx did not forsee the creation of Labor Unions.......and the resultant redistribution of wealth that they brought about.

The stark disparity between the working class and the elite is no longer a huge chasm but merely a step to the next level brought about by the freedom to be innovative or to be able to obtain a better education that in itself creates more freedom through opportunity.

he did not forsee labor unions... because he did not take into account early government intervention to hinder a communist rise. Most of the industrial countries had huge communist parties. Governments were alarmed by their growth, and instigated certain measures and policies that helped the growth of labor unions and work-place standards. However, the threat is always there.. go lax on certain policies, the class differentiation becomes more apparent, and the workers start banding together in greater numbers.

Those times are history, and there is almost enough oversight and law enforcement (Most of the laws required have already been enacted) to constrain Capitalism. There is still some work to be done but we are almost there.

See, what I was trying to point out is how woudl globalism effect the evolution of our society and economic system. Could our current capitalism really survive in a completely globalized world? You can't deny that there has to always be class differences in the capitalist system (if there weren't class differences, competition would cease to exist, and capitalism would go down with it as well). This point leads to the fact that there HAS to be poor people and filthy rich people in the world to fuel competition and keep capitalism running. That basically means that poverty will never be eliminated right?

Of course poverty is relative, but lets say we get to a point in society where the whole world's economy is globalized, and every single person in the world has the means to afford shelter, food, education, and some form of entertainment (poverty as we know it is bascially eliminated). Then would there really be that cut-throat competition between people to drive capitalism?

 

[da Silva]

My favorite metaphor:

Suppose you're at the bank. There are five queues.

The capitalist approach: you take a queue and wait for your turn. You may be lucky or you may get the complicated guy just before you;

The socialist approach: there's only one queue. People take their turns as desks become available. Everyone gets an even amount of waiting.

 

[dragonslayer]

You forgot to add the killing of unborn humans to your list.

Socialism is communism in disguise; in fact socialism is just communism under a different name.

How come you act like such UNEDUCATED man? Are u member of the KKK?

Have you ever read a book? I guess you have. everything you say is almost a quote from Mein Kampf. Hitler's famous book

this person belongs on everyones ignore list

 

[hawk2]

See, what I was trying to point out is how woudl globalism effect the evolution of our society and economic system. Could our current capitalism really survive in a completely globalized world? You can't deny that there has to always be class differences in the capitalist system (if there weren't class differences, competition would cease to exist, and capitalism would go down with it as well). This point leads to the fact that there HAS to be poor people and filthy rich people in the world to fuel competition and keep capitalism running. That basically means that poverty will never be eliminated right?

Your premise that there must always be poor and filthy rich people is correct ...BUT....it's due to human nature.....NOT capitalism! Most people only want enough money to meet their basis needs, then they have the freedom to become.....WHAT......they want to be......not how rich they can become. There will always be the element of society who trample on everyone to become "filthy rich", but the majority of people don't possess the drive OR the discipline to reach the top of the money pile, or the top of their profession so they must content themselves with just living on what ever step they reach. You must understand......all animals including humans, have a "pecking order" based on their particular abilities/ intelligence level/personality.

Once again, capitalism isn't just about "money grubbing".........it's mostly about having the freedom to become whatever you are best suited to become.

Socialism wants everyone to be the same........"cookie cutter".....people. Is that what you want......I don't think so. Right this minute......you think you are more intelligent than me........you have the best idea......you want to be higher on the ladder of life than me. That's human nature. While in actual fact, you are afraid you will fail......therefore you want a system that gives everyone an equal chance and then if you don't "make it" you want the other guy to share his good fortune with you. It is doomed to failure .......don't you see that?

 

[nkgupta80]

Your premise that there must always be poor and filthy rich people is correct ...BUT....it's due to human nature.....NOT capitalism!

exactly, capitalism feeds of the worst and best in our human nature. This sharp contrast is needed for the competition to run capitalism. But this basically shows that our society can never evolve beyond this point right in an unconstrained capitalist system right? (Right now it may be constrained in the US, but it certainly isn't constrained around the world). SO this whole thing on helping the poor is useless since there always is gonna be poor people?

 

[hawk2]

exactly, capitalism feeds of the worst and best in our human nature. This sharp contrast is needed for the competition to run capitalism. But this basically shows that our society can never evolve beyond this point right in an unconstrained capitalist system right? (Right now it may be constrained in the US, but it certainly isn't constrained around the world). SO this whole thing on helping the poor is useless since there always is gonna be poor people?

You are talking in circles.......Say what you believe and believe what you say.

 

[128shot]

omgozors people are greedy!

what do you think would happen if politicians got the amount of control socialism has?

Maybe you didn't realize Stalin took advantage of this?

 

[hawk2]

omgozors people are greedy!

what do you think would happen if politicians got the amount of control socialism has?

Maybe you didn't realize Stalin took advantage of this?

Huh???????

 

[nkgupta80]

You are talking in circles.......Say what you believe and believe what you say.

I never went in circles I am just trying to analyze different consequences of what capitalism assumes. Capitalism needs poverty and an upperclass to create competition to survive. Socialism attempts to end poverty and these class differences. What I am saying is that as our world becomes more interconnected, isn't poverty something we would want to fix? And if we were to fix it, would capitalism be the best system to provide this?

When you say that its laziness and lack of education that causes poverty, I can tell you that there are millions of people in the world who work their asses off and are probably more intelligent than some of the CEOS in this world. None the less they are considered poor. Education would only help somewhat. For example, look at the tech sector. There are so many people who have a degree in computer science, that the level of success you can achieve with this degree is not a lot. I know a lot of poor people with an education like this.

 

[128shot]

Huh???????

I was commenting on people saying capitalism is nothing but greed.

but if greed is just an urge for more power, imagine what socialism would be.

 

[hawk2]

Capitalism needs poverty and an upperclass to create competition to survive. Socialism attempts to end poverty and these class differences. What I am saying is that as our world becomes more interconnected, isn't poverty something we would want to fix? And if we were to fix it, would capitalism be the best system to provide this?

Now you're making some sense...but...Why does Capitalism need poverty and an upperclass to survive? All Capitalism needs to survive is to be free from a dictatorial Gov't.......the people will create capitalism. Money lending and trading are the second oldest professions in the world.

Ending poverty is a noble but idealistic endeavor and perhaps not achievable. How would you define poverty? To me, poverty is a relative term. If I had enough food to satisfy my hunger, clothes to keep me warm, and shelter to provide protection from the elements, I might feel like a wealthy man. However, if I had no car, others might consider me to be impoverished and I might also consider myself to be too poor to own a car. Again poverty is a relative term. In parts of Africa, wealth might equate to as little as $10.00 per day, while those in poverty would live on pennies per day.

Capitalism is the only economic model that has a chance of creating enough overall wealth to think about eliminating poverty. Socialism is more of a religion than a model to create wealth.......as a matter of fact, Socialism is designed to replace religion in peoples lives as part of the brain indoctrination.

Got to run.....more later.

 

[ncallaway]

Socialism is designed to replace religion in peoples lives as part of the brain indoctrination.

As far as I can tell, that's more Communism than Socialism.

 

[nkgupta80]

Why does Capitalism need poverty and an upperclass to survive? All Capitalism needs to survive is to be free from a dictatorial Gov't.......the people will create capitalism. Money lending and trading are the second oldest professions in the world.

let me reiterate: capitalism is based on competition. Competition can only exist when there is a socio-economic gap within a society. Thus poor and rich must always remain. yes poor is relative. But thats where I was getting at. If we do reach a point where we are all living safely, can afford food, shelter, family, and some entertainment. Wouldn't competition diminish? Wouldn't the attractiveness of the upperclass fade away as the bridge between them and the working masses closes?

However, reaching this point with capitalism would be extremely difficult because of the very nature of the system. The essence of capitalism is profit: extract labor while returning the least amount back. Every business must adhere to this principle in some way or another in order to achieve success. The consequences is that exploitation in a capitalist system is inevitable.

Based on this, if we were every to reach the point where the socio-economic gap closes, capitalism will HAVE to evolve.

Marx's prediction after making this brilliant analysis, was that a communist revolution would take place. His prediction was proven wrong (he himself didn't assume that his prediction was inevitable). However, when you look at our globalized world, and the way technology bridges people together, you have to wonder how long our current capitalist system would last.

 

[Comrade Brian]

As far as I can tell, that's more Communism than Socialism.

There are religous communists, I have no wish to abolish religion, I've been thinking about becoming a Unitarian Universalist. I just don't want it forced onto people, like our government is doing.

 

[Comrade Brian]

I was commenting on people saying capitalism is nothing but greed.

And profits.

 

[Comrade Brian]

Your premise that there must always be poor and filthy rich people is correct ...BUT....it's due to human nature.....NOT capitalism! Most people only want enough money to meet their basis needs, then they have the freedom to become.....WHAT......they want to be......not how rich they can become. There will always be the element of society who trample on everyone to become "filthy rich", but the majority of people don't possess the drive OR the discipline to reach the top of the money pile, or the top of their profession so they must content themselves with just living on what ever step they reach. You must understand......all animals including humans, have a "pecking order" based on their particular abilities/ intelligence level/personality.

Once again, capitalism isn't just about "money grubbing".........it's mostly about having the freedom to become whatever you are best suited to become.

Socialism wants everyone to be the same........"cookie cutter".....people. Is that what you want......I don't think so. Right this minute......you think you are more intelligent than me........you have the best idea......you want to be higher on the ladder of life than me. That's human nature. While in actual fact, you are afraid you will fail......therefore you want a system that gives everyone an equal chance and then if you don't "make it" you want the other guy to share his good fortune with you. It is doomed to failure .......don't you see that?

People are educated to capitalism. Therefore they are taught that capitalism is the best and only system that can survive. And any system not based entirly on greed is against human nature. I don't deny greed doesn't exist, capitalism teaches me that just by looking at it, but they don't have to revolve around greed. And in capitalism, greed is a MUST, otherwise you could not sell your product, advertising exists to emphasize and exploit your greed. I think people shouldn't be taught to be greedy.

Plus in capitalism you cannot become whatever you want, many require colleges, those cost money, the rich have exceedingly amounts of money, they end up with better jobs, they stay richer. The opposite is true for the poor, they stay poor.

 

[Comrade Brian]

Well, define work. I'm sure they work somewhere, some how, in some way, to keep on reaping profits.

That IS their work, reaping profits and owning capital.

 

[128shot]

you just love pointing fingers. don't you?


Like I said before, when you can stop playing nothing but guilt, and show me a country that works under a system describe such as you have, then we might have something going.

The guilt card, does not last forever. So far, I'm hearing nothing but fascism coming out of this.

 

[Comrade Brian]

Fascism?

 

[128shot]

the merger of state and corporations via revolution...

sound familiar?

 

[Comrade Brian]

Sounds familiar, but I wasn't trying to sound Fascist.

 

[128shot]

thats text book definition fascism!

 

[gdalton]

Plus in capitalism you cannot become whatever you want, many require colleges, those cost money, the rich have exceedingly amounts of money, they end up with better jobs, they stay richer. The opposite is true for the poor, they stay poor.

I paid my own way through college by working as a security guard at night for
$6ph, I admit I had a place to live and food that I didn't pay for and I know that some people need to pay for their home and food before school but with so many programs out there to help them get the money and community college's being pretty cheap (Valencia cc in Orlando charges $75 per credit hour) very few people can use this "college is to expensive" crap as an excuse for not getting an education.

 

[Comrade Brian]

And you had to work for college. Rich people don't.

And not everyone can find a job to pay it off.

 

[gdalton]

And you had to work for college. Rich people don't.

And not everyone can find a job to pay it off.

Sorry you lost me, what exactly is your point here?
Your original argument was that rich folks can afford to go to college to get better jobs and stay rich, my argument was that a kid making $6ph and living at home paid for college just fine.