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What is deadnaming, and how to avoid it

I personally think it's strange to posit that a woman accomplished what Bruce Jenner did and it strains reason to expect people to talk about this particular Olympian as if HE at the time was actually a woman who beat men at multiple events.
HER name is Caitlyn.

You should say that "Caitlyn won the Olympic Medal." Otherwise, you're deadnaming her.

If Michael Phelps changes his name to "Jeffrey Phelps," are you still going to call him "Michael?" Nope, that's rude. Now amplify that by 10 times when dealing with transgender individuals, as deadnaming refers to years (if not decades) of distress.

And you will be just fine using the proper name and pronouns for transgender individuals.


But blah blah blah virtue signal and just expect everyone to swallow such insanity without question. Too bad. you won't speak on merits.
:rolleyes:

Y'know, we've heard this type of thing over and over again, when denying people the basic dignity and respect they deserve. Homosexuals, for example, were routinely derided as "sick" or "deluded" or "sinful" or "insane," and a whole host of other types of insults. Funny how that seems to have rather quickly fallen by the wayside in recent years....

Perhaps instead of going out of your way to insult someone who feels profound distress over their situation -- serious enough that they transition, despite the risks of losing their family, friends, jobs, and personal safety -- you should just listen to what they're saying, and understand what they're feeling. What a concept.
 
Bruce did more than change his name.
Caitlyn changed her name.

Referring to a post-transitioned individual by their previous name is deadnaming. At a minimum, it's extremely rude; pointing out why is... kind of the point of this thread.


I treat people as they treat me.
Okay. How would you feel then, if everyone around you insisted on referring to you by the wrong name, and wrong gender?


It would be interesting to ask the author of the OP linked article why was it written.
That's pretty obvious.

A lot of people are, understandably, confused by the proper way to refer to transgender individuals. It's still a rare process, and it challenges lots of assumptions about gender, biology and society.

So, when people get things wrong a lot of the time, and want to know how to correct it, someone winds up writing an article about it.
 
You mean like their own chromosomes proving the person is indeed biologically opposite of what they are falsely claiming?
Have you checked the chromosomes of any trans individual or seen a chromosomal check of one? If not then how do you know if they are not one of the people with a non standard configuration or genes/chromosomes?
 
Deadnaming is not one-dimensional.
Some people just forget.

But yes, the TACTIC itself is both disrespectful and potentially dangerous.
Deadnaming when used as a tactic is a form of aggression, you're basically telling a person that they do not exist as a human being in their present form.
A classic example is Bob Tur, (now known postop as Zoey Tur) owner of Los Angeles News Service, who I worked for briefly way back in the 1980's.
During a televised appearance, pundit Ben Shapiro tried to "deadname" Zoey Tur and she wasn't having any of it.



Ben Shapiro certainly wasn't putting Zoey Tur in danger but a committed homophobe with skewed political aspirations could be counted on
to morph this into a form of terroristic threat by leveraging manufacture of consent and demonizing/otherizing folks like Tur in public.

Actually Ben Shapiro decided to add a variable to the debate, by using Tur as a point of that same debate. To which Tur got upset and physically threatened someone, in what should have been a civil discussion.
 
Have you checked the chromosomes of any trans individual or seen a chromosomal check of one? If not then how do you know if they are not one of the people with a non standard configuration or genes/chromosomes?
Are you suggesting that we institute some form of blood sample testing to show that someone is who/what they are claiming to be?
 
Have you checked the chromosomes of any trans individual or seen a chromosomal check of one? If not then how do you know if they are not one of the people with a non standard configuration or genes/chromosomes?
The order of magnatude of those type of anomalies have no relevance to an in general discussion.
 
I don't quite agree with your analogy. We're talking about biological sex here, not marital status, which for many female Olympians, has changed.
No, my point is that the specific question is about an individuals preferred name. Any reasoning behind a change in their preferred name is largely separate. If someone did something in the past but now goes by a different name, when talking about the thing they did in the past today, you'd still generally use their current name. That goes equally for Miss Smith who is now Mrs Jones, Jonny who is now Johnathan, Xiaoping who is now Ken or Ellen who is now Elliot.

I just can't bend my brain around that one.
That's your problem no anyone else's. There will be loads of things in life that make no sense to some people. That's just something we all have to deal with.
 
What an absurd reply.
You do not think biology is science based? That's dumb.
Is the brain part of that biology?

Does this really need to be explained?
 
No, my point is that the specific question is about an individuals preferred name. Any reasoning behind a change in their preferred name is largely separate. If someone did something in the past but now goes by a different name, when talking about the thing they did in the past today, you'd still generally use their current name. That goes equally for Miss Smith who is now Mrs Jones, Jonny who is now Johnathan, Xiaoping who is now Ken or Ellen who is now Elliot.

That's your problem no anyone else's. There will be loads of things in life that make no sense to some people. That's just something we all have to deal with.
We're not talking about a name change though, are we? We're talking about a change of ascribed sex, and that's my problem. It's the suspending of reality that I'm just not going to play make believe.
I'm not just saying Caitlin won 10 Olympic medals. I'm saying a WOMAN won them.
According the the woketionary.

It's a bridge too far for me.
 
Are you suggesting that we institute some form of blood sample testing to show that someone is who/what they are claiming to be?
In this case I am pointing out that someone outside of the person in question, is making a claim about their chromosomes, without anything to back that claim up. If you claim to be male, who am I to then claim that you are lying and actually have an XX pair?
 
The order of magnatude of those type of anomalies have no relevance to an in general discussion.
Actually they do, because there is no study that I am aware of that is establish that transgender individuals are not as a group generally of the unusual chromosomal/genetic group. How many are trans because they are chimeras with male and female DNA? How many are such because they either have an SRY gene on one of their X chromosomes or don't have the SRY gene on their Y chromosome. How many possess the SRY gene but it never activated as it was supposed to? How many are actually intersexed with no one ever bothering to check them, because, other than transgenderism and GD, there are no other physical signs of such? These things are not normally checked, nor even studied. So how much of an order of magnitude is actually there because we've never truly looked. It would be similar to have doctor now say that women actually get pregnant and miscarry a lot more frequently that previously assumed because the majority was happening with no obvious signs.
 
I'm not just saying Caitlin won 10 Olympic medals. I'm saying a WOMAN won them.
No, you're saying an individual won them. They're the same individual regardless of their gender transition and regardless of the name they now go by.
 
No, you're saying an individual won them. They're the same individual regardless of their gender transition and regardless of the name they now go by.
A woman didn't win those medals. I think rewriting history is dangerous. Caitlin is a male who identified as Bruce Jenner when she won, because if she was a bio female, she wouldn't have prevailed and performed better than the other males in the competition.
That immutable fact can't be socially engineered away.
 
A woman didn't win those medals. I think rewriting history is dangerous.
You're only seeing it as rewriting history because you're obsessing over sex/gender exclusively rather than seeing Jenner as an individual human being. If someone won a junior athletics medal 30 years ago, would it be rewriting history to talk about them winning it now because an adult didn't win the medal? You're trying to present a problem that only exists inside your own head as something universal. I can totally understand someone not liking the idea of gender transition but that doesn't mean nobody else is capable of referring to Caitlin Jenner winning her Olympic medals.
 
You're only seeing it as rewriting history because you're obsessing over sex/gender exclusively rather than seeing Jenner as an individual human being. If someone won a junior athletics medal 30 years ago, would it be rewriting history to talk about them winning it now because an adult didn't win the medal? You're trying to present a problem that only exists inside your own head as something universal. I can totally understand someone not liking the idea of gender transition but that doesn't mean nobody else is capable of referring to Caitlin Jenner winning her Olympic medals.
Well that's projection at its finest. For all the men who competed against men and won, I will never kowtow to the woke mob. For all the women who should never be forced to compete against males in JUNIOR ATHLETICS and be cheated out of a win, a medal or a scholarship, I will never kowtow to the woke mob.
You don't transition biologically. You just don't.
When history repeats such lies that a woman won that very Decathlaon, we are in big trouble. I hope to never see the day.
You are in the minority, I'm afraid.
 
In this case I am pointing out that someone outside of the person in question, is making a claim about their chromosomes, without anything to back that claim up. If you claim to be male, who am I to then claim that you are lying and actually have an XX pair?
Seeing as this person on public record as being female for the vast majority of their life. I'd have to say that the verdict leans in the direction of them being as such.
This is the same age in which there are men who claim to be female, just so they can troll around theme park restrooms and stare at young girls, or possibly worse.

I have no issue with someone coming out as a gender, opposed to that which they were born with. But where this measure stops is when they begin to demand certain standards be changed to accommodate them.

Even your stance here has it's own issues. Because saying that "we simply don't know", means that they are just getting a pass and that this passing ignores a possibly serious mental issue.
 
Seeing as this person on public record as being female for the vast majority of their life. I'd have to say that the verdict leans in the direction of them being as such.
This is the same age in which there are men who claim to be female, just so they can troll around theme park restrooms and stare at young girls, or possibly worse.
How many times has that happened? Have they been trans people who did it, or just perverts? What bathrooms do you think that FtM trans men are going to use? Perverts wont even have to dress in drag to use the female bathroom because they just need to claim that they are trans guys. You didn't think it through, did you, or did you forget that they existed?

I have no issue with someone coming out as a gender, opposed to that which they were born with. But where this measure stops is when they begin to demand certain standards be changed to accommodate them.
What special standards are you referring to?

Even your stance here has it's own issues. Because saying that "we simply don't know", means that they are just getting a pass and that this passing ignores a possibly serious mental issue.
But somehow the APA disagrees with you? Do you have a PhD in psychology or an MD in psychiatry?



 
Seeing as this person on public record as being female for the vast majority of their life. I'd have to say that the verdict leans in the direction of them being as such.

I didn't quite follow that. Could you please rephrase, maybe include a little more context or detail on who is who and such.

This is the same age in which there are men who claim to be female, just so they can troll around theme park restrooms and stare at young girls, or possibly worse.

This is also the same age where lesbians don't even need to make a claim and can just troll around restrooms and changing rooms to stare at young girls or possible worse. Oh wait, that age has been around for decades or longer. Or predator women can claim to be men to go into restrooms and changing rooms to stare at young boys or worse. Or predator men into the men's restroom and changing room, but again, we've allowed them to do so for decades as well.

The problem come from where you conflate the sex/gender with what action might happen. The crime is watching the person in a moment of privacy. For a restroom, anyone, save maybe a parent with their young child insisting on "independence", who is looking through cracks in a restroom stall is a problem regardless of the sex/gender or either person. Although why we just can't make a simple building code for public restroom to have stalls with no gap openings is beyond me. Problem solved.

But beyond that, is the fact that, that we simply don't make something illegal just because a small minority might use that to break another law. We don't make it illegal to drink just because someone might drive under the influence. Nor do we cater to .fear or uncomfortableness. We don't tell black women they can't use the women's restroom because some white women are uncomfortable with them and afraid that the black women might get violent. Or reverse that, and say that the white women can't use the women's restrooms because black women are uncomfortable and afraid that the white women will go all Karen on them and pull a gun.

Reality is, it's not as much of a problem as many would make it out to be. Unisex restrooms are popping up all across the country, not to mention around the world, and with no significant uptick in restroom assaults or "peeping" incidents. They are becoming quite common at many conventions as well, where some or all the restrooms within the venue are changed to unisex for the duration of the convention. Again, no increase in assaults, visual or worse. In fact, in every one I have personally attended (and as a board game demonstrator, I've frequented many as a booth helper prior to the lockdown issues) has not had a single incident. Nor have I heard of any from the cons that did so, that I didn't attend. And I would suspect that should such an incident occur, some rabid anti-trans person would have snatched that story up and shouted it to the high heavens.

I have no issue with someone coming out as a gender, opposed to that which they were born with. But where this measure stops is when they begin to demand certain standards be changed to accommodate them.

And what special standards are you feeling are being asked for? For that matter, let's also go the other way and ask why you think these certain standards, whatever they may be, should not be changed. After all, there was a demand that the standard of not marrying outside your race not be changed, or the standard that women or blacks not being able to vote not be changed.

Even your stance here has it's own issues. Because saying that "we simply don't know", means that they are just getting a pass and that this passing ignores a possibly serious mental issue.

This is the same stance that is typically used against homosexuals and bisexuals, and it doesn't fly there either. That is before we examine the use of my argument. I specifically used it to show that a person claims something as a fact that they cannot back up. That aside, if those conditions are indeed more common than we have previously realized, and are responsible for even a portion of the number of transgender cases, then it automatically becomes not a mental illness, at least for that portion. That said, a simple claim of mental illness is simply not enough. There was a period when we thought left handedness was a mental illness or even a chosen sin.
 
HER name is Caitlyn.

You should say that "Caitlyn won the Olympic Medal." Otherwise, you're deadnaming her.
But her name wasn't Caitlyn at the time. In biographies and historical books people are often referred to as the name they bore at the time of the events being described, and only after the book gets to the point where they take on the new name does the book switch to this new name. But if you're talking about her in general conversation, then sure, you should refer to her as Caitlyn.
 
Interesting article in the OP. It does bring up a question similar to what Arcadia asked in post 2. Do transgenders who are famous expect history to be rewritten to reflect their current names? In the case of Arcadia's question, did " Bruce Jenner win Olympic gold or did Caitlin Jenner? As far as I know no one knew Jenner was a transgender. It makes no sense to go back and change Olympic records. Bruce won the gold. History can show that Jenner became Caitlin later in life.

Just as Caitlyn Jenner isn't recorded as smashing the women's track and field record in every sport she participated in.
 
Our friends on the left do love their jargon.
It's proper to use the correct terminology. It is the sign of an educated and intelligent person.
 
It's also a sign of groupthink.
No, The use of proper terms is a sign of intelligence, education, and respect. If you want to be taken as serious and knowledgeable you use the proper terms when discussing an idea.

Why do you take it as an insult to use the proper terms when referring to an idea or a person?

Did you partake in post-high school formal education?
 
No, The use of proper terms is a sign of intelligence, education, and respect. If you want to be taken as serious and knowledgeable you use the proper terms when discussing an idea.

Why do you take it as an insult to use the proper terms when referring to an idea or a person?

Did you partake in post-high school formal education?
I don't take it as an insult. Why must you build straw-men to support your argument?

Yes, I have a college degree and have been applying it quite successfully in the working world for decades now. Again, you can park the academic elitism. I've seen enough of the world to know a degree is not intelligence, and that only the very naive confuse the two.
 
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