What is a minimum wage for, if not a living wage?

[j brown's body]

So, I often hear on these forums that a minimum wage was "never meant to be" a "living wage." (living wage always in scare quotes) It's not "supposed to be" able to support yourself.

But I never really hear an answer to... what the **** is it for?

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?

A living wage is exactly what it's creators intended for it to be.

 

[NatMorton]

So, I often hear on these forums that a minimum wage was "never meant to be" a "living wage." (living wage always in scare quotes) It's not "supposed to be" able to support yourself.

But I never really hear an answer to... what the **** is it for?

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?

It can be an entry level wage to help new workers develop the skills that will allow them to earn more down the road.

What any wage needs to be is fair value for the labor provided.

 

[eohrnberger]

The McDonald's kiosk is cheaper than an employee and has been for ages. Raising minimum wage is not the problem, the kiosk is already well below human worker cost. I did the math in another thread here:

Where Jacking-up the Minimum Wage Leads ...

Do you want me to explain the problem in detail and include both systems engineering and ergonomics. I'm a design engineer. This is what I do. Of course there are problems. Nobody is claiming these things are magic. Screens break, software has bugs, batteries die, USB-C is an invention of...

debatepolitics.com

Even my ludicrously generous math puts the kiosk below the price of a $6/hour employee already. (it's probably not even half that)

That's a real shame. Pulled the first rung of the career ladder out from under first time workers.

Does it actually accomplish this, though? It certainly doesn't pay for education. What skill does McDonald's give the employee that a higher-paying career job cares about?

Previous work experience cannot, and should not, be as easily dismissed as you just have. It's the difference between the first job and the second job, and the third (all trending upwards).
A letter of recommendation from your supervisor / manager on departure does and strong references do wonders to open other doors, for example.

 

[Deuce]

It can be an entry level wage to help new workers develop the skills that will allow them to earn more down the road.

The skills are developed regardless of the wage provided, so this doesn't appear to be an answer to the question. The job provides experience, what does the minimum wage do?

What any wage needs to be is fair value for the labor provided.

Sure, but only if you accept that "fair" is not some inherent, objective, singular value represented by a worker's current pay. Put another way, the fact that Jim is paid $10/hour does not imply that $10/hour for his job is inherently fair. "Your value is the amount you have negotiated" is circular logic.

So, since "fair" is going to be subjective, there are going to be different opinions on what "fair" is, and you shouldn't be infuriated by someone daring to suggest a McDonald's worker should be paid more than they currently are. You both think the wage should be fair, you just have arrived at different numbers. Make sense?

 

[Deuce]

That's a real shame. Pulled the first rung of the career ladder out from under first time workers.

Yeah, and this was inevitable. There's no wage value where the human being was ever going to be cheaper than that kiosk. We're talking sub-$2/hour probably to really compete with the kiosk. (remember, I was grotesquely overestimating the cost of that kiosk at every step)

Previous work experience cannot, and should not, be as easily dismissed as you just have. It's the difference between the first job and the second job, and the third (all trending upwards).
A letter of recommendation from your supervisor / manager on departure does and strong references do wonders to open other doors, for example.

Yes, I didn't mean to suggest there's no value at all. But does it really do what you want it to do, as well as you want it to? Does working at McDonald's really make me more likely to get a job as... whatever it is you think I'm "supposed" to be doing instead? I mean, the accountant still needs education in accounting. The pilot still needs a pilot's license. The plumber and the electrician and the doctor and the nurse and the truck driver and the carpenter and the insurance actuary all have respective experiences and educations that are necessary and specific to their field. McDonald's provides none of that and it doesn't pay for that education either.

The McDonald's job mostly helps people get other low-paying jobs. Ok great, so it's easier to move to the grocery store. Awesome. After a while, maybe even supervisor at McDonald's or at the grocery store. Ok, moving up to some extent... but again this isn't exactly a lucrative outcome.

 

[Deuce]

This is enlightening. I'm getting tons of answers to... more or less anything but the actual question I asked. Lots of answers about what the minimum wage job is supposed to be for, but not the reason for having a minimum wage in the first place. Why not let McDonald's pay $1.50/hour?

Seymour had the closest thing to an answer, but it wasn't all that satisfying. Something something unions and to avoid "taking advantage" of workers? Why do we care about that? Why is $6/hour "taking advantage" of something but $8/hour isn't?

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

So, I often hear on these forums that a minimum wage was "never meant to be" a "living wage." (living wage always in scare quotes) It's not "supposed to be" able to support yourself.

But I never really hear an answer to... what the **** is it for?

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?

Minimum wage jobs are opportunities young people many of which are still living with mom and dad to the work force even without without marketable skills. They are also opportunities for students to work their way through college They are opportunities for housewives to make some mad money. They are opportunities for seniors to supplement their Social Security earnings And most minimum wage jobs offer opportunity for advancement.

 

[NatMorton]

The skills are developed regardless of the wage provided, so this doesn't appear to be an answer to the question. The job provides experience, what does the minimum wage do?



Sure, but only if you accept that "fair" is not some inherent, objective, singular value represented by a worker's current pay. Put another way, the fact that Jim is paid $10/hour does not imply that $10/hour for his job is inherently fair. "Your value is the amount you have negotiated" is circular logic.

So, since "fair" is going to be subjective, there are going to be different opinions on what "fair" is, and you shouldn't be infuriated by someone daring to suggest a McDonald's worker should be paid more than they currently are. You both think the wage should be fair, you just have arrived at different numbers. Make sense?

Fair is what the employee and employer agree to. It’s not what you, I, or anyone else believes is “fair” or a “living wage.”

 

[EdwinWillers]

So, I often hear on these forums that a minimum wage was "never meant to be" a "living wage." (living wage always in scare quotes) It's not "supposed to be" able to support yourself.

But I never really hear an answer to... what the **** is it for?

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?

You have a point.

And who decides what a "living wage" is?
And based on what?
Is it a one-size-fits-all wage? Demographically? Geographically? Politically?
If so, shouldn't everyone be required to get the same wage?
And what if someone earns more than the living wage?
Will they be required to give it back?
Will there be other penalties for earning more than others?

And, will whomever who decides what this wage will be, will they be required to make the same wage too?

 

[Deuce]

You have a point.

And who decides what a "living wage" is?

I mean we live in a representative democracy so the direct answer is "the people we elect" and the indirect answer is "we do, because this is a society." Not really sure why I had to explain how laws work.

And based on what?

What society decides is important. Like just about everything else.

Is it a one-size-fits-all wage? Demographically? Geographically? Politically?

It has never been one-size-fits all in any of those categories.

If so, shouldn't everyone be required to get the same wage?
And what if someone earns more than the living wage?
Will they be required to give it back?
Will there be other penalties for earning more than others?

You need to look up the word "minimum" in a ****ing dictionary. Unless you actually mean to argue that minimum wage somehow requires full communism? America has a minimum wage right now, are we literally the USSR now? Did you think about these questions at all before writing them?

And, will whomever who decides what this wage will be, will they be required to make the same wage too?

If elected representatives were required to earn minimum wage and not one penny more from any source, I bet it would be more than $7.25/hour

But to answer your question... no I don't think anyone has proposed that. And the people we elect sure as hell aren't going to vote themselves a massive pay cut.

 

[Integrityrespec]

Intended by whom? Who decided this? Why the hell not?


Who runs the place at 2pm on a Wednesday? The kids are all in class.


What skill does this develop that a higher-paying employer gives a shit about, and why is that a justification for anything?

You didn't really answer the question. What is the minimum wage for?


To me, it seems cruel to demand a service be done while also looking down on the people who provide it. If you think the McDonald's worker is beneath you, you don't deserve the burger.

It's pretty simple supply and demand. Not many people are available to do higher level work, that takes more education and training, so they get pay more. They are responsible for helping generate income, so they get more of it.
In fast food business, the skill set is not that high, the training not that intense and anyone can do the job so they have an over abundance of available workers, compared to Dr, lawyer, college degree professionals, skilled tradsmen like electrician, plumbers and etc. These folks earn more because not just anyone can do their jobs. Bringing in an addition 1 million illegal immigrants is not going to help the work force pay scale either.
It's a fact, the data reports clearly that most of the fast food workers are second jobs, part time jobs, mom's working only while kids are at school, college kids, summer empolyment. It's just what it is. HOw much education or training is involved in flipping burgers? Why are we always encouraging kids to be better educated?

 

[eohrnberger]

Yeah, and this was inevitable. There's no wage value where the human being was ever going to be cheaper than that kiosk. We're talking sub-$2/hour probably to really compete with the kiosk. (remember, I was grotesquely overestimating the cost of that kiosk at every step)


Yes, I didn't mean to suggest there's no value at all. But does it really do what you want it to do, as well as you want it to? Does working at McDonald's really make me more likely to get a job as... whatever it is you think I'm "supposed" to be doing instead? I mean, the accountant still needs education in accounting. The pilot still needs a pilot's license. The plumber and the electrician and the doctor and the nurse and the truck driver and the carpenter and the insurance actuary all have respective experiences and educations that are necessary and specific to their field. McDonald's provides none of that and it doesn't pay for that education either.

The McDonald's job mostly helps people get other low-paying jobs. Ok great, so it's easier to move to the grocery store. Awesome. After a while, maybe even supervisor at McDonald's or at the grocery store. Ok, moving up to some extent... but again this isn't exactly a lucrative outcome.

Again, a min wage job isn't a career, it's a start to a working career, and yes, having those first jobs does enable you get other jobs, including (once having the needed education, training and / or certifications) accountant and pilot.

College isn't for everyone. There are some folks who are more interested in, and have a natural aptitude for, working with their hands and their minds. There's a shortage in the skilled trades. A young person approaches a master of the craft for an apprentice position. Do you think his chances of getting that apprenticeship is better or worse that he's held a min wage job? I'd content that his chances are better.

I have seen this happening in real life. High school guy is interested in cars. He started as a 'shop helper', cleaning and organizing, up to detailer, saving his money started buying his tools, took training and certifications in automotive repair, and how he's a well paid automotive technician.

If College bound, a part time job during school can help, allot. Having those first jobs betters the person's chance in getting these jobs as well, don't you think?

Did you not work your way up from lower positions to higher position in your working career? It's the same thing, with, I'm guessing, a slightly different start. It's what the person makes of it, the opportunities that come their way (they always do) and the ones they take advantage of.

 

[eohrnberger]

Fair is what the employee and employer agree to. It’s not what you, I, or anyone else believes is “fair” or a “living wage.”

I'd also add what the job market can bear, as a component in that situation.

 

[Deuce]

It's pretty simple supply and demand. Not many people are available to do higher level work, that takes more education and training, so they get pay more. They are responsible for helping generate income, so they get more of it.
In fast food business, the skill set is not that high, the training not that intense and anyone can do the job so they have an over abundance of available workers, compared to Dr, lawyer, college degree professionals, skilled tradsmen like electrician, plumbers and etc. These folks earn more because not just anyone can do their jobs. Bringing in an addition 1 million illegal immigrants is not going to help the work force pay scale either.
It's a fact, the data reports clearly that most of the fast food workers are second jobs, part time jobs, mom's working only while kids are at school, college kids, summer empolyment. It's just what it is. HOw much education or training is involved in flipping burgers? Why are we always encouraging kids to be better educated?

You are describing "why do some jobs pay less and others pay more."

That's not the question. The question is "what is the purpose of having a minimum wage?"

You mentioned the education, but the minimum wage... doesn't pay for education.

 

[NatMorton]

I'd also add what the job market can bear, as a component in that situation.

We’re saying the same thing. What the market can bear is really just the aggregation of many employee/employer agreements.

 

[NatMorton]

You are describing "why do some jobs pay less and others pay more."

That's not the question. The question is "what is the purpose of having a minimum wage?"

You mentioned the education, but the minimum wage... doesn't pay for education.

The purpose of the minimum wage, like so much of liberal policy making, is to make liberals feel good about themselves. Whether it helps or hurts those on the low-end of the labor market is of no concern to them.

 

[Deuce]

Again, a min wage job isn't a career, it's a start to a working career, and yes, having those first jobs does enable you get other jobs, including (once having the needed education, training and / or certifications) accountant and pilot.

College isn't for everyone. There are some folks who are more interested in, and have a natural aptitude for, working with their hands and their minds. There's a shortage in the skilled trades. A young person approaches a master of the craft for an apprentice position. Do you think his chances of getting that apprenticeship is better or worse that he's held a min wage job? I'd content that his chances are better.

I have seen this happening in real life. High school guy is interested in cars. He started as a 'shop helper', cleaning and organizing, up to detailer, saving his money started buying his tools, took training and certifications in automotive repair, and how he's a well paid automotive technician.

If College bound, a part time job during school can help, allot. Having those first jobs betters the person's chance in getting these jobs as well, don't you think?

Did you not work your way up from lower positions to higher position in your working career? It's the same thing, with, I'm guessing, a slightly different start. It's what the person makes of it, the opportunities that come their way (they always do) and the ones they take advantage of.

Why.

Do.

We.

Have.

A.

Minimum.


Virtually everyone is answering the wrong question?

The question is not "why do we have low paying jobs?" The question is not "why do minimum wage jobs exist?" The question is not "what is the purpose or benefit to getting a minimum wage job at the start of your career?"

The question is why does the minimum wage exist at all? Over and over people say just what you said. "These jobs aren't a career. Minimum wage isn't supposed to let you feed and house yourself." Then why do we have minimum wage laws?

 

[Deuce]

The purpose of the minimum wage, like so much of liberal policy making, is to make liberals feel good about themselves. Whether it helps or hurts those on the low-end of the labor market is of no concern to them.

The idea that a minimum wage law hurts the low-end of the labor market is laughable. What, if we remove the minimum wage, you think these people would get paid more?

 

[NatMorton]

Why.

Do.

We.

Have.

A.

Minimum.


Virtually everyone is answering the wrong question?

The question is not "why do we have low paying jobs?" The question is not "why do minimum wage jobs exist?" The question is not "what is the purpose or benefit to getting a minimum wage job at the start of your career?"

The question is why does the minimum wage exist at all? Over and over people say just what you said. "These jobs aren't a career. Minimum wage isn't supposed to let you feed and house yourself." Then why do we have minimum wage laws?

So.

You.

Can.

Virtue.

Signal.

 

[Jay59]

So, I often hear on these forums that a minimum wage was "never meant to be" a "living wage."

Right. It's an entry-level wage.

(living wage always in scare quotes) It's not "supposed to be" able to support yourself.

Is this an argument or an aside?

But I never really hear an answer to... what the **** is it for?

Entry-level.

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?

No reason that I am aware.

The idea that a minimum wage law hurts the low-end of the labor market is laughable. What, if we remove the minimum wage, you think these people would get paid more?

More people get jobs.

 

[Deuce]

We’re saying the same thing. What the market can bear is really just the aggregation of many employee/employer agreements.

I'd modify that slightly. I'd say what the market does result in is the aggregation of many employee/employer agreements.

Can bear is a different question. The market absolutely can bear other ratios of employer/employee compensation.

 

[Deuce]

No reason that I am aware.

Would it surprise you to learn that "living wage" was the exact phrase used to justify the first minimum wage laws in the US?

 

[Jay59]

Would it surprise you to learn that "living wage" was the exact phrase used to justify the first minimum wage laws in the US?

Not at all. Politics is full of this sort of

 

[Deuce]

Not at all. Politics is full of this sort of

Therein lies the problem.

Conservatives just think these low-wage earners are beneath them. They demand the service. They want the shitty cheeseburger handed to them inside of three minutes at the drive thru, but they don't think the people providing that service deserve to feed and clothe themselves.

"But the market says it should pay X" The market? People talk about the market as if it's some kind of deity, as if the results are some hand-down from God himself that must be The Way. There's no magic law of physics that dictates a CEO must make X while his workers make Y. He could make X-1 while his 5 workers make Y+1. Same profit margin. There's nothing inherently morally "right" about the current pay scale.

Yes, it's a moral argument. If I'm going to demand a service, I should be willing to pay for that service to exist and not demand the taxpayers subsidize my cheeseburger for me. So I guess the question for conservatives is, why are you demanding my tax dollars go to McDonald's and Walmart's profits?

 

[bave]

You are living in la-la land if you think most minimum wages employees get time and half after 40 hours.....

You are living in la-la land if you think minimum wage workers actually exist. Recent BLS data shows that almost all workers at or near minimum wage are actually tipped professions. This isn't 1981 when ~16% of workers made minimum wage. It is now ~2% and they are pretty much all tipped workers.