What is a minimum wage for, if not a living wage?

[Deuce]

So, I often hear on these forums that a minimum wage was "never meant to be" a "living wage." (living wage always in scare quotes) It's not "supposed to be" able to support yourself.

But I never really hear an answer to... what the **** is it for?

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?

 

[Integrityrespec]

So, I often hear on these forums that a minimum wage was "never meant to be" a "living wage." (living wage always in scare quotes) It's not "supposed to be" able to support yourself.

But I never really hear an answer to... what the **** is it for?

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?

Too many jobs are not intended to be carreer type jobs. Macdonalds, unless management and other fast food joints are great for part time, students in college or high school, second jobs, and they don't require lots of skill of training. That's what you pay for skill, previous training and education. Anybody can slide open a window and hand you a bag of burgers, (have the time they get the order wrong).

 

[Mycroft]

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?

That's a good question.

I really have no answer.

(maybe some bleeding heart liberal has an answer for you)

 

[Deuce]

Too many jobs are not intended to be carreer type jobs.

Intended by whom? Who decided this? Why the hell not?

Macdonalds, unless management and other fast food joints are great for part time, students in college or high school, second jobs, and they don't require lots of skill of training.

Who runs the place at 2pm on a Wednesday? The kids are all in class.

That's what you pay for skill, previous training and education. Anybody can slide open a window and hand you a bag of burgers, (have the time they get the order wrong).

What skill does this develop that a higher-paying employer gives a shit about, and why is that a justification for anything?

You didn't really answer the question. What is the minimum wage for?


To me, it seems cruel to demand a service be done while also looking down on the people who provide it. If you think the McDonald's worker is beneath you, you don't deserve the burger.

 

[seymourflops]

So, I often hear on these forums that a minimum wage was "never meant to be" a "living wage." (living wage always in scare quotes) It's not "supposed to be" able to support yourself.

But I never really hear an answer to... what the **** is it for?

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?

People who would like to work low-skilled jobs for wages that don't have to be high enough to provide for their entire livelihood.

Some teenager in a middle-class family who won't buy him a car, would want a part-time job that would allow him to save for one and maintain it once he buys it. A retired person may want a job that allows them to get out and be among people and have a little extra spending money. A colleges student may be happy to work for minimum wage as a night security guard so she can study while she works. A poker player who generates cash flow at the tables to live comfortably on, might need an income to report and a chance to buy company health insurance.

It's absurd that if I knew a college student like that and I paid her seven dollars an hour to study at my warehouse while monitoring the security cameras, I would be committing a federal crime.

The old one-size-fits-all strikes again!

 

[Deuce]

People who would like to work low-skilled jobs for wages that don't have to be high enough to provide for their entire livelihood.

Ok but people have to eat and have a roof over their head. That's not a negotiable item.

Some teenager in a middle-class family who won't buy him a car, would want a part-time job that would allow him to save for one and maintain it once he buys it. A retired person may want a job that allows them to get out and be among people and have a little extra spending money. A colleges student may be happy to work for minimum wage as a night security guard so she can study while she works. A poker player who generates cash flow at the tables to live comfortably on, might need an income to report and a chance to buy company health insurance.

These are all niches that don't actually result in McDonald's being able to operate. You can't staff a multi-billion dollar industry with edge cases. You can't staff a restaurant entirely with students or online poker players.

It's absurd that if I knew a college student like that and I paid her seven dollars an hour to study at my warehouse while monitoring the security cameras, I would be committing a federal crime.

The old one-size-fits-all strikes again!

It's not one-size-fits all. Minimum wage is not universal.

You never answered the question really. What is it for?

 

[Maccabee]

Too many jobs are not intended to be carreer type jobs. Macdonalds, unless management and other fast food joints are great for part time, students in college or high school, second jobs, and they don't require lots of skill of training. That's what you pay for skill, previous training and education. Anybody can slide open a window and hand you a bag of burgers, (have the time they get the order wrong).

That still doesn't answer the question. If anything, that's an argument for part time jobs rather than against raising the minimum wage.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

“The purpose of the minimum wage was to stabilize the post-depression economy and protect the workers in the labor force. The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees.”

minimum wage

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[Lisa]

Too many jobs are not intended to be carreer type jobs. Macdonalds, unless management and other fast food joints are great for part time, students in college or high school, second jobs, and they don't require lots of skill of training. That's what you pay for skill, previous training and education. Anybody can slide open a window and hand you a bag of burgers, (have the time they get the order wrong).

If they can hire people to do a job then they are required to pay them a living wage. That is why the minimum wage exists Doing otherwise is corporate welfare and wage slavery. If they do otherwise then raises taxes on the business to recoup the difference between the paid wages and a living wage, plus a 25% penalty.

The answer is Franklin Delano Roosevelt, when the original minimum-wage law was passed in 1933.


Roosevelt said, “In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.


“By business I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.”

FDR set precedent on minimum wage being a ‘living wage’

In a recent letter to the editor, a person asked, “Whoever said the minimum wage should be a living wage?” The answer is Franklin Delano Roosevelt, when the original minimum-wage law wa…

www.lowellsun.com

 

[HIP56948]

Personally, I think the bottom line is: Pay the workers as little as one can get by with, in order for the fortunate to reap most of the benefits.

 

[seymourflops]

Ok but people have to eat and have a roof over their head. That's not a negotiable item.

Are minimum wage workers typically starving and living on the street? No, they are making do with their minimum wage jobs or they have another source of income. If they are making do, then their wage is a living wage. If they have another source of income then their wage need not be a minimum wage.

These are all niches that don't actually result in McDonald's being able to operate. You can't staff a multi-billion dollar industry with edge cases. You can't staff a restaurant entirely with students or online poker players.

Is your position that we need minimum wage to be a living wage so McDonald's can operate? They seem to be doing fine as it is.

It's not one-size-fits all. Minimum wage is not universal.

Very true. If a person does not like working for the minimum wage, they have at least two options:

1. Do farm labor or other labor that isn't covered under minimum wage.

2. Get the training, education, and experience they need to be offered wages above the minimum.

You never answered the question really. What is it for?

You're right, I stand corrected. I answered a question you did not ask, which is something I call other posters out for, so this time I was guilty.

The question that I answered was "what is a minimum wage job for," not "what is the minimum wage for?"

The minimum wage law has several intended purposes. Not letting employers take advantage of people who would be willing to work for less, such as illegal aliens and kids living with parents who don't really "need" money but wouldn't mind getting five bucks an hour to wash cars or whatever. It is also a sop to the labor unions in that it sets a floor for wage negotiations with management.

Reading between the lines, I think your real concern is for grownups, perhaps with kids of their own, working at a job whose wage is more suitable for a teenager, correct?

Where I live there are a lot of low-income rural whites. I won't use the "R" word. I sometimes see a grown man riding a kid's bike. Not for fun, but doing to the store, or wherever. I often see those bikes at a roadside icehouse type bar or at a convenience store. Why would a grown man be riding a kid's bike?

I'd say either the man does not work, so had to sell his car and now is stuck with transportation seemingly not appropriate for him, or he has a DUI and rides his kid's bike rather than spend money on a grown up bike.

That man needs to act to pull himself up from that situation. It would not help him at all to pass a minimum car bill or a universal basic transportation bill to provide him with a vehicle. That won't change him, it will just make it more likely that he will get himself in a bad situation like a DUI or an accident.

 

[Deuce]

“The purpose of the minimum wage was to stabilize the post-depression economy and protect the workers in the labor force. The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees.”

minimum wage

www.law.cornell.edu

Shhh, Don't give it away!

 

[Grizzly Adams]

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?

The best kind of vote-buying: the kind that gets paid by other peoples' money.

 

[Deuce]

Are minimum wage workers typically starving and living on the street? No, they are making do with their minimum wage jobs or they have another source of income. If they are making do, then their wage is a living wage. If they have another source of income then their wage need not be a minimum wage.

Sure, if your stance is "well just work 60 hours a week to feed yourselves and everything is fine." I don't agree with that standard. Another aspect of the minimum wage standard was a 40 hour week. We should be able to feed and house ourselves without working ourselves to the bone until we drop dead.

Is your position that we need minimum wage to be a living wage so McDonald's can operate? They seem to be doing fine as it is.

No, I'm merely rejecting the idea that fast food is supposed to be staffed by teenagers. The average age of a mcdonald's employee is apparently 27.

Edit: LMAO, the same page I found that number on had this absolutely wonderful piece of American dystopia:

The top 10% of highest-paid mcdonalds crew members earn as much as $27,000 or more

Jesus.

Very true. If a person does not like working for the minimum wage, they have at least two options:
1. Do farm labor or other labor that isn't covered under minimum wage.

Paid... less? That's a bad option.

2. Get the training, education, and experience they need to be offered wages above the minimum.

So then is minimum wage supposed to pay for that education or training? Because we're gonna have to raise it a WHOLE LOT.

You're right, I stand corrected. I answered a question you did not ask, which is something I call other posters out for, so this time I was guilty.

The question that I answered was "what is a minimum wage job for," not "what is the minimum wage for?"

The minimum wage law has several intended purposes. Not letting employers take advantage of people who would be willing to work for less, such as illegal aliens and kids living with parents who don't really "need" money but wouldn't mind getting five bucks an hour to wash cars or whatever. It is also a sop to the labor unions in that it sets a floor for wage negotiations with management.

Reading between the lines, I think your real concern is for grownups, perhaps with kids of their own, working at a job whose wage is more suitable for a teenager, correct?

Minimum wage doesn't pay for one person let alone a household. That's why so many of these workers are eligible for our bare-bones social safety nets. I am in fact subsidizing Wal-Mart's crappy pay via TANF and SNAP.

Where I live there are a lot of low-income rural whites. I won't use the "R" word. I sometimes see a grown man riding a kid's bike. Not for fun, but doing to the store, or wherever. I often see those bikes at a roadside icehouse type bar or at a convenience store. Why would a grown man be riding a kid's bike?

I'd say either the man does not work, so had to sell his car and now is stuck with transportation seemingly not appropriate for him, or he has a DUI and rides his kid's bike rather than spend money on a grown up bike.

That man needs to act to pull himself up from that situation. It would not help him at all to pass a minimum car bill or a universal basic transportation bill to provide him with a vehicle. That won't change him, it will just make it more likely that he will get himself in a bad situation like a DUI or an accident.

So, if our goal is for him to get on his feet, we need for him to be able to afford a car. That way he can commute to a job properly, since we're so determined to keep our current transportation model and just pretend public transportation is supposed to suck.

The lack of a car limits his job options further. Cheap cars are expensive. They break. Repairs are costly, and require savings that... they don't have because the wage is too low.


Now, you sorta answered the question but there's a hitch. "take advantage of?" What is there to take advantage of if minimum wage doesn't really serve any particular purpose?

 

[Ginger Ale]

It's supposed to be a living wage, and increase with inflation. It's B.S. that it's a teen job, it's B.S. that it's not meant to be your only source of income.

It's been used and abused by corporate lobbyists so that they can make more profit, and we allow the tax payers to foot the bill for government programs the employee needs to provide essentials for living.

A lot of companies wouldn't be as profitable if they had to pay a living wage or insurance. They like it better when Americans help them by paying for social programs like Wic, food stamps/education and healthcare. They get to add our loss to their profits.

Republicans and Corporate Democrats are to blame for our minimum wage fiasco.

 

[eohrnberger]

Skills and knowledge are compensated in the market place just as labor is.
The job market reality is that a low skill, low knowledge job simply doesn't command greater compensation than what the market will bear. Minimum wage sets the floor. Raise that floor the marketplace responds, for example McDonald's puts in self service kiosks, resulting in net job loss.

As has been identified in earlier posts, minimum wage jobs are a starting point for a working career, not as a career. Even in a minimum wage job, you learning things and have the opportunity to demonstrate capabilities and value contributions which can, and should, lead to work advancement and with it increased compensation.

 

[Deuce]

Part of what sparked this thread was discussion of social safety nets with @ttwtt78640 where we talked a bit about social safety nets being a trap. Opponents of those safety nets often point this out, but I don't think they're considering that poverty is its own trap. I think it was Andrew Young who stated it as "poverty charges interest." Can't afford to see a dentist? Root canal later, more expensive. Can't afford car maintenance? More expensive breakdown later. Can't afford routine medical checkups? More expensive serious condition later. Overdraft an account? Large fees, credit rating hit, higher interest rates. Can't afford higher education? More limited job opportunities.

And god help you if you become homeless. Ever try to get a job when you don't have an address or even a place to wash your clothes? That interview isn't going to go well.

Social safety nets and minimum wages aren't about letting people get an easy ride, they're about opportunity to become and stay self sufficient.

 

[Deuce]

Skills and knowledge are compensated in the market place just as labor is.
The job market reality is that a low skill, low knowledge job simply doesn't command greater compensation than what the market will bear. Minimum wage sets the floor. Raise that floor the marketplace responds, for example McDonald's puts in self service kiosks, resulting in net job loss.

The McDonald's kiosk is cheaper than an employee and has been for ages. Raising minimum wage is not the problem, the kiosk is already well below human worker cost. I did the math in another thread here:

Where Jacking-up the Minimum Wage Leads ...

Do you want me to explain the problem in detail and include both systems engineering and ergonomics. I'm a design engineer. This is what I do. Of course there are problems. Nobody is claiming these things are magic. Screens break, software has bugs, batteries die, USB-C is an invention of...

debatepolitics.com

Even my ludicrously generous math puts the kiosk below the price of a $6/hour employee already. (it's probably not even half that)

As has been identified in earlier posts, minimum wage jobs are a starting point for a working career, not as a career. Even in a minimum wage job, you learning things and have the opportunity to demonstrate capabilities and value contributions which can, and should, lead to work advancement and with it increased compensation.

Does it actually accomplish this, though? It certainly doesn't pay for education. What skill does McDonald's give the employee that a higher-paying career job cares about?

 

[Callen]

I don't know what a living wage is and how one would decide that given the huge swings of cost of living in various States. However, I have very strong opinions on this subject. I will be accused of being progressive I am sure but I am not. I just give a damn about my fellow man.

Our excellent lifestyle in Canada and the US is in large part due to the contribution of those in very low paying jobs. We would not enjoy what we enjoy without the restaurant workers, the fast food workers, the hotel housekeeping and maintenance staff, the hairdressers, the manicurist, the lawn care and pool care workers, the grocery store clerks, the gas station attendants, the dollar store worker, the bakery cook, on and on. it is my firm belief that in return we at least owe them a wage that allows for them to house, feed and clothe themselves, educate their kids, have access to regular healthcare including diagnostic services and the like and maybe just maybe a shot at some sort of retirement although that one is really a long shot.

All employees have worth and it is not all measured by their employer's profit margin.

 

[seymourflops]

Sure, if your stance is "well just work 60 hours a week to feed yourselves and everything is fine." I don't agree with that standard. Another aspect of the minimum wage standard was a 40 hour week. We should be able to feed and house ourselves without working ourselves to the bone until we drop dead.

Sir . . . respectfully . . . if you think working 60 hours a week is working yourself to the bone until you drop dead, you have led a sheltered life.

Minimum wage jobs do not typically let workers work more than 40 hours since they want to pay minimum wage, not time and a half of minimum wage.

It is skilled workers who are typically allowed the privilege of over-time since skilled workers are harder to come by and are more valuable.

Paid... less? That's a bad option.

Right, I strongly recommend option 2.

So then is minimum wage supposed to pay for that education or training? Because we're gonna have to raise it a WHOLE LOT.

No, we won't because we already offer free public education that often includes vocational training, along with financial aid for college that can also be applied to technical schools.

Minimum wage doesn't pay for one person let alone a household. That's why so many of these workers are eligible for our bare-bones social safety nets. I am in fact subsidizing Wal-Mart's crappy pay via TANF and SNAP.

AHA!

Now, on that score you are 100% abso-freakin'-lutely right! You and all of us are subsidizing Wal-Mart's ability to pay low wages and still have workers. YES!

We should stop giving such financial aid to adults working the minimum wage so they will demand more than the minimum wage or be unwilling to work 40 hours per week.

So, if our goal is for him to get on his feet, we need for him to be able to afford a car. That way he can commute to a job properly, since we're so determined to keep our current transportation model and just pretend public transportation is supposed to suck.

The lack of a car limits his job options further. Cheap cars are expensive. They break. Repairs are costly, and require savings that... they don't have because the wage is too low.

Your first few words are the problem. It is not enough for our goal to be to get him on his feet. It must be his goal as well. If it is his goal, he will find a way. If it is not his goal, giving him a car won't make it his goal, he'll just wait for the next freebie.

For a moment, I thought you really were advocating giving him a car. Then I saw your words on public transportation which is a much better option.

I think there is a strong case to be made for improving public transportation in the U.S.. It worked extremely well in Germany when I was stationed there. It will be the employers of low-wage workers that will benefit from the workers having good public transit, so shift the money now spent on providing their workers benefits like Medicaid and AFDC to building public transit infrastructure.

 

[Callen]

I am in fact subsidizing Wal-Mart's crappy pay via TANF and SNAP.

Excellent point and don't forget Earned Income Credits!!! It is amazing that so many who tout the free market system and employers deciding worth don't get the fact that their tax dollars subsidize companies' payrolls through their own personal income taxes. They seem incapable of connecting those dots.

ETA Walmart has actually come to the forefront of companies lifting wages and benefits and I commend them for that.

 

[Deuce]

Sir . . . respectfully . . . if you think working 60 hours a week is working yourself to the bone until you drop dead, you have led a sheltered life.

Minimum wage jobs do not typically let workers work more than 40 hours since they want to pay minimum wage, not time and a half of minimum wage.

It is skilled workers who are typically allowed the privilege of over-time since skilled workers are harder to come by and are more valuable.

How many hours a week do you work? Try working 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, for years. Try it.

Just throwing out a century's worth of progress by labor, "respectfully." LMAO **** that.

Right, I strongly recommend option 2.


No, we won't because we already offer free public education that often includes vocational training, along with financial aid for college that can also be applied to technical schools.

But the high school education doesn't do shit for you in the workforce. Those "career" jobs you think everyone is "supposed" to get don't care about your high school diploma. And LMAO college financial aid. Jesus christ, clearly someone who has never had to worry about paying for college. You're thirty years out of date, my friend.

AHA!

Now, on that score you are 100% abso-freakin'-lutely right! You and all of us are subsidizing Wal-Mart's ability to pay low wages and still have workers. YES!

We should stop giving such financial aid to adults working the minimum wage so they will demand more than the minimum wage or be unwilling to work 40 hours per week.

So close, and yet so far.

Walmart isn't going to pay them more because we take away SNAP. That's ludicrous.

Your first few words are the problem. It is not enough for our goal to be to get him on his feet. It must be his goal as well. If it is his goal, he will find a way. If it is not his goal, giving him a car won't make it his goal, he'll just wait for the next freebie.

You're trying to handwave the problem by literally just assuming he doesn't want to get better. Rejected. Let's assume he does want to get on his feet, because almost everyone wants that. You haven't addressed how hard it is.

For a moment, I thought you really were advocating giving him a car. Then I saw your last sentence on public transportation which is a much better option.

Our public transportation is abysmal. It's not a better option except in specific cities.

I think there is a strong case to be made for improving public transportation in the U.S.. It worked extremely well in Germany when I was stationed there. It will be the employers of low-wage workers that will benefit from the workers having good public transit, so shift the money now spent on providing their workers benefits like Medicaid and AFDC to building public transit infrastructure.

Socialist.

 

[Callen]

Minimum wage jobs do not typically let workers work more than 40 hours since they want to pay minimum wage, not time and a half of minimum wage

You are living in la-la land if you think most minimum wages employees get time and half after 40 hours.....

 

[Deuce]

You are living in la-la land if you think most minimum wages employees get time and half after 40 hours.....

No, as he implied what really happens is people work two jobs. The problem doesn't change.

He rightfully points out that a business will do anything to reduce labor cost. No shit. That's why we're having this conversation!

 

[beancounter]

There is a bagel/sandwich shop near me that claims to provide a living wage for it's employees, as well as benefits.

It's not out of business, and it's prices are in line with similar shops.

This whole narrative about a living wage collapsing the economy is complete b.s.