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What If Iran Had Invaded Mexico?

Is this a fair and accurate analogy?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • No

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • Maybe (if other conditions were present)

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • Not even close!

    Votes: 3 18.8%

  • Total voters
    16
You are denying historical fact, much like David Irving or David Duke. It's disheartening and pitiful.



The military. Yes, the military that overthrew the government. The guys who did the coup. We gave them money before, during, and after the coup. What does that tell you?

That we gave military aid to Allende's government.

We assisted and helped those who executed the coup in the days following. What does that tell you?

The entire Chilean military perpetrated the coup?

The CIA is in a large responsible for the destruction of a democratic government,

Actually Marxism, is responsible for the destruction of that Democratic government. Pinochet was ordered by the Chilean Chamber of Deputies and Chile's Supreme Court to remove the tyrant Allende from power for his numerous violations of the Chilean Constitution.

and it supported the fascistic and genocidal regime that followed thereafter. This is historical fact.

It's not historical fact that we supported the coup plotters, yes we gave military aid to Chile but there is no evidence that we supported the actual coup plotters.
 
Pinochet was not genocidal and we didn't put him into power in the first place, if any of the regimes you mentioned was gencoidal it was the sandinista regime.

We funded him throughout his genocidal history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet#Suppression_of_opposition


We didn't install Pinochet, the closest example you have is the removal of Arbenz, but Arbenz was instituting communist reforms at the time. These "land reforms," were the first step in Castro's Cuba and Hugo Chavez's Venezuela as well and we all know how that turned out. Funny that Arbenz moved to Moscow following his ousting.

"Communist reforms". That's laughable. He was buying inactive land owned by foreign countries in order to use the resources for Guatemalan companies. He didn't do "land reforms". Lenin did "land reforms"; he divvied up all the land and parceled it out. Comparing what Arbenz did to what Stalin did is like comparing what Bush is doing to what Hitler did.


Duke
 
Timeline:

The 40 Committee is the CIA group on the Chile situation.




Duke
November 19 40 Committee approves $725,000 for a covert action program in Chile. Approval is later superseded by January 28, 1971, authorization.

So after Allende is comfirmed the U.S. restricts all activity to supporting dissident political parties, radio stations, denying them loans, and sh!t like that? I'm not seeing anything about supporting the military Junta which overthrew Allende.
 
That we gave military aid to Allende's government.

What tunnel vision you have. That we gave money to the military plotting his demise.



The entire Chilean military perpetrated the coup?

The powers that be inside it did.


Actually Marxism, is responsible for the destruction of that Democratic government. Pinochet was ordered by the Chilean Chamber of Deputies and Chile's Supreme Court to remove the tyrant Allende from power for his numerous violations of the Chilean Constitution.


:lamo :2rofll: :lamo

Oh, God, that's a good one, Trajan! You really have no grasp on history, do you?

First of all, that paper you found by the Chamber of Deputies was written by the majority, which was Allende's opposition. It was an anti-Allende campaign propagated by his opposition. Of course they don't like him. It's like asking a socialist if Bush is a tyrant. You know they'll say yes.

It's funny how willingly you accept obviously biased, slanted, and spun articles as fact. It's comically dishonest.


Duke
 
We funded him throughout his genocidal history.
Augusto Pinochet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What genocide?

"Communist reforms". That's laughable. He was buying inactive land owned by foreign countries in order to use the resources for Guatemalan companies. He didn't do "land reforms". Lenin did "land reforms"; he divvied up all the land and parceled it out. Comparing what Arbenz did to what Stalin did is like comparing what Bush is doing to what Hitler did.


Duke

No he confiscated land and redistributed it throughout the population, it's no coincidence that his land reforms were supported very much by the Communist party in Guatemala.
 
What tunnel vision you have. That we gave money to the military plotting his demise.

lmfao, we gave military aid to Chile it was not the entire military that engaged in the coup it was a military Junta. Giving military aid to Chile as a whole is not the same thing as supporting or funding the coup plotters.

The powers that be inside it did.

Uh huh and how is giving military aid to Chile the same thing as giving aid to the select few within the military Junta? If Allende had not violated the Chilean Constitution on so many levels the military would have been working for him.


:lamo :2rofll: :lamo

Oh, God, that's a good one, Trajan! You really have no grasp on history, do you?

First of all, that paper you found by the Chamber of Deputies was written by the majority, which was Allende's opposition. It was an anti-Allende campaign propagated by his opposition. Of course they don't like him. It's like asking a socialist if Bush is a tyrant. You know they'll say yes.

And if the Democratic majority impeached Bush and he refused to step down they would have every right to have Bush removed by force. Maybe they were in opposition to Allende because he did exactly what they said he did. And why is it that the Christian Democratic Party that was at first an ally of Allende having formed a coalition party with him then decided to go against him? First the Chilean Congress votes 153 to 35 in favor of Allende and then votes to have him ousted when his excesses are made clear.

It's funny how willingly you accept obviously biased, slanted, and spun articles as fact. It's comically dishonest.


Duke

Again the Chilean Supreme Court passed a resolution against Allende as well.
 
What genocide?


Do you know what genocide means? Allow me to educate you:

genocide |?jen??s?d| noun the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

His mass murder of political dissidents is genocide.

No he confiscated land and redistributed it throughout the population, it's no coincidence that his land reforms were supported very much by the Communist party in Guatemala.

Arbenz continued Arévalo's reform agenda and, in June 1952, his government enacted an agrarian reform program modeled on the 1862 Homestead Act in the U.S. The new law gave the government power to expropriate only uncultivated portions of large plantations. Estates of up to 670 acres (271 hectares) were exempted if at least two thirds of the land was cultivated; also exempt were lands that had a slope of more than 30 degrees (a significant exemption in mountainous Guatemala). The land was then allocated to individual families in the attempt to create a land-owning yeoman nation reminiscent of the U.S.'s own goals in the 1800s. Owners of expropriated land were compensated according to the worth of the land claimed in May 1952 tax assessments.

Oh look, he copied the US Homestead Act. I guess the Homestead Act must have been Communist. You said that every country who does things like Guatemala did became Communist. America must be a Communist country then! Wow, it's amazing that I didn't see that! I guess we should overthrow the US government and put in a dictatorship, then.


Duke
 
lmfao, we gave military aid to Chile it was not the entire military that engaged in the coup it was a military Junta. Giving military aid to Chile as a whole is not the same thing as supporting or funding the coup plotters.



Uh huh and how is giving military aid to Chile the same thing as giving aid to the select few within the military Junta? If Allende had not violated the Chilean Constitution on so many levels the military would have been working for him.

So you agree that we funded the elements that were involved with the coup? Wow, it's good to see that you came to your senses.


And if the Democratic majority impeached Bush and he refused to step down they would have every right to have Bush removed by force.

The Deputies majority never impeached him. They just criticized him, the same way liberals criticizes Bush every day.

And why is it that the Christian Democratic Party that was at first an ally of Allende having formed a coalition party with him then decided to go against him?

They probably saw that if they didn't the US-backed coup leaders would kill them too.


Duke
 
Do you know what genocide means? Allow me to educate you:



His mass murder of political dissidents is genocide.

And which mass murders has he been convicted of?

Oh look, he copied the US Homestead Act. I guess the Homestead Act must have been Communist. You said that every country who does things like Guatemala did became Communist. America must be a Communist country then! Wow, it's amazing that I didn't see that! I guess we should overthrow the US government and put in a dictatorship, then.


Duke

A) it didn't say "copied," it said "modeled after."

B) This was not publicly owned land as was the case in Guatemala, the 160 acres partiotioned out in the homestead act was owned by the government.
 
So you agree that we funded the elements that were involved with the coup? Wow, it's good to see that you came to your senses.

Umm no that's not what I said, we gave military aid to Chile, we did not fund or support the coup plotters.

The Deputies majority never impeached him. They just criticized him, the same way liberals criticizes Bush every day.

They lacked an impeachment procedure, the message was clear; either resign or be forced out of power.

They probably saw that if they didn't the US-backed coup leaders would kill them too.

Ya what a load of horseshit, the coup would never have come to pass had it not been for the resolutions of the SCOC and the CDOC. The reason why the resolution was passed and the reason the Christian Democrats went against Allende is because he was a Marxist tyrant attempting to overthrow the Chilean Republic and set up a totalitarian dictatorship as he freely admits:

"As for the bourgeois state, we are seeking to overcome it, to overthrow it." Regarding his allowance of democratic guarantees, they were only temporary - a "tactical necessity" for "the time being."

Marxism caused Allende's overthrow | csmonitor.com
 
The only thing one needs to know about Mossadegh's "referendum" is that he recieved 99.9% of the vote and with these obviously fraudulent results he dissolved parliament and granted himself dictatorial control over Iran. The Shah afterall was the head of state according to the Iranian constitution, not Mossadegh, and his re-insertion into power was not a coup it was a counter coup.

Really? Nah. You also need to know that Mossadeq had massive support in the country over an issue that was a given for the Iranian people. This referendum was indeed crude but considering the nature of the crisis its inconceivable that he could not have won the result if done another way.

Furthermore if you're going to just ignore the points made above because theyre inconvenient to you then I'll just have to repeat them, his record in public life was impeccable, he was challenged to take up his post not taking it up all by himself and his political record was of consistent criticism of the corrupt Shah and the foreign powers ranged against the country.

The Shah was an unelected head of state who's previous holder's of the post had sold off the country for a pittance to foreign owners. Mossadeq and his Nationalist movement had the most support of any of the factions in the country by far.

For a full history of the country, not just some conjob article trying to justify undemocratic foreign intervention see;
A Persian Tragedy: Mossadeq's Fight for National Sovereignty


Good try. Thanks for playing.
 
Really? Nah. You also need to know that Mossadeq had massive support in the country over an issue that was a given for the Iranian people. This referendum was indeed crude but considering the nature of the crisis its inconceivable that he could not have won the result if done another way.

The referendum wasn't crude it was a farce and fraudulent I don't care how "crude" it was the only way for him to have recieved 99.9% of the vote is through rigged elections.

Furthermore if you're going to just ignore the points made above because theyre inconvenient to you then I'll just have to repeat them, his record in public life was impeccable, he was challenged to take up his post not taking it up all by himself and his political record was of consistent criticism of the corrupt Shah and the foreign powers ranged against the country.

His political record was rigging elections, destroying the Iranian economy, creating mass shortages, dissolving the Congress, and appointing himself dictator. You severely overestimate Mossadegh's popularity at the time of his ousting bub.

The Shah was an unelected head of state who's previous holder's of the post had sold off the country for a pittance to foreign owners.

The Shah brought more economic prosperity to Iran than at anyother time before or since.

Mossadeq and his Nationalist movement had the most support of any of the factions in the country by far.

Got to love it when a supposed liberal defends a national socialist who grants himself "emergency dictatorial powers," how's the weather in the U.K. Neville? And Mossadegh's support at the time of his overthrow was minimal.

For a full history of the country, not just some conjob article trying to justify undemocratic foreign intervention see;
A Persian Tragedy: Mossadeq's Fight for National Sovereignty


Good try. Thanks for playing.

lmfao you're defending a man who routinely ignored the Egyptian Constitution and rigged an election in order to do away with Congress so as to make himself dictator. Fuc/k me running the propaganda you Europeans swallow hook, line, and sinker is un-believable.
 
Last edited:
If Mossadegh was so bad, and the Shah so wonderful and so good for Iran, why was the Ayatollah able to overthrow the Shah in a popular revolution?

If the Shah was such a great guy, why did his SAVAK police need to round up so many of his opponents and silence them for good?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EAGLE1
Really? Nah. You also need to know that Mossadeq had massive support in the country over an issue that was a given for the Iranian people. This referendum was indeed crude but considering the nature of the crisis its inconceivable that he could not have won the result if done another way.

The referendum wasn't crude it was a farce and fraudulent I don't care how "crude" it was the only way for him to have recieved 99.9% of the vote is through rigged elections.

Not really, the referendum included only a Yes or No option, was held at different times across some parts of the country and the cause of Mossadeq had massive support in the country. Getting 99.9% is quite easy actually - I mean what Iranian in their right mind would vote against the nationalisation of Iran's oil out of the hands of foreign powers?

Quote:
Furthermore if you're going to just ignore the points made above because theyre inconvenient to you then I'll just have to repeat them, his record in public life was impeccable, he was challenged to take up his post not taking it up all by himself and his political record was of consistent criticism of the corrupt Shah and the foreign powers ranged against the country.

His political record was rigging elections, destroying the Iranian economy, creating mass shortages, dissolving the Congress, and appointing himself dictator. You severely overestimate Mossadegh's popularity at the time of his ousting bub.

Rigging elections? What election?

Destroying the Iranian economy? Just ignoring the blockade are we, how convenient.

Dissolving Congress? Reforming it.

Dictator? A guy with more democratic credentials than anyone in the country? Thats a dictator anyone would vote for.

Overestimate his popularity?? Im probably underestimating it bub.

Quote:
The Shah was an unelected head of state who's previous holder's of the post had sold off the country for a pittance to foreign owners.

The Shah brought more economic prosperity to Iran than at anyother time before or since.

Prosperity eh? Aw thats so nice. I suppose the lifting of the blockade is always a boost but an economically successful dictator, just like Hitler, just like Napoleon? By that argument we should have alot more of em. Up for that ToT?

Quote:
Mossadeq and his Nationalist movement had the most support of any of the factions in the country by far.

Got to love it when a supposed liberal defends a national socialist who grants himself "emergency dictatorial powers," how's the weather in the U.K. Neville? And Mossadegh's support at the time of his overthrow was minimal.

Wow, so now Mossadeq was Hitler? Youll try anything to wriggle out. The guy spent most of his day wearing only his pyjamas and carrying his umbrella and you think he's Hitler? :rofl Try again.

Quote:
For a full history of the country, not just some conjob article trying to justify undemocratic foreign intervention see;
A Persian Tragedy: Mossadeq's Fight for National Sovereignty


Good try. Thanks for playing.

lmfao you're defending a man who routinely ignored the Egyptian Constitution and rigged an election in order to do away with Congress so as to make himself dictator. Fuc/k me running the propaganda you Europeans swallow hook, line, and sinker is un-believable.

Probably just as well he ignored the Egyptian constitution :lol: .


While you try to get your story straight ill reitirate the points on Mossadeq;

/ His government was subject to continual subterfuge and sabotage by the forces outside Iran while the country suffered under a British imposed blockade.
ii/ Iran was not long used to proper conduct of ballots, especially snap referendums.
iii/ Mossadeq previous record in public life is immpecable. In fact he had avoided leadership of the country until he was challenged by a right wing member of the Majlis to take a positive step. He called the man's bluff and was put in power on a wave of enthusiasm.
iv/
Although the referedum was crudely handled the popular support of the National Front is clear for very good historical reasons, making it likely that he would have won the referendum by some margin even if it had been done simultaneously with one voting booth.
v/ During his time in office he won support in the Majlis for tinkering with the system of representation - changing the Senate tenure from 6 to 2 years for example. This can be looked at as some attempt to subvert democracy however, you can also see it as his moves to reform an antiquated system. It should also be noted that Shah not long before had extended his powers over the country without any support.
 
Wow -- a lunatic fringe "report" filled with jargon so thickand hackneyed it almost appears to be satire, and with glowing references to Lyndon LaRouche to boot.

How special. :doh

Fair enough, its got alot of choice language in it. Im willing to examine any details you wish to provide that it misses out.

Anyone care to provide a more balanced detailed history?
Id suggest the CIA report on the 1953 Coup.
 
And which mass murders has he been convicted of?

You are an incredible hypocrite. You have accused the Sandinista regime of genocide many, many times, you've told me that they were evil genocidal butchers, and when I tell you that Pinochet was genocidal, you ask me if he's ever been convicted. You accept so wholeheartedly the theory that this leftist regime is genocidal, not pausing one moment to see if it's fact or if there are any convictions on the record, but if someone goes so far as to insinuate that a rightist may have perpetrated genocide, you instantly fall in defense of him and ask for legal convictions. How dishonest, how false. You don't let the truth get in the way of your political ideology one bit, do you, Trajan?

Fact:
After the military's seizure of power, Pinochet destroyed the insurgency linked to the defeated Popular Unity (UP) government. In October 1973, at least 70 people were killed by the Caravan of Death.
Almost immediately, the junta banned all the leftist parties that had constituted Allende's UP coalition. All other parties were placed in "indefinite recess," and were later banned outright. The regime's violence was directed against dissidents. It is not known exactly how many people were killed by government and military forces during the 17 years that he was in power, but the Rettig Report concluded that 2,279 persons who disappeared during the military government were killed for political reasons, and at least 30,000 tortured according to the Valech Report, and several thousand persons were exiled. The latter were chased all over the world in the frame of Operation Condor, a cooperation plan between the various intelligence agencies of South American countries, assisted by a US communication base in Panama. Pinochet believed these operations were necessary in order to "save the country from communism."[19] It is also rumored that United States CIA agents helped Pinochet to install his government to suppress the communist uprising in Chile.


Pinochet with his Argentinean counterpart, Jorge Rafael Videla
In contrast to most other nations in Latin America, prior to the coup, Chile had a long tradition of democratic civilian rule; military intervention in politics had been rare. Some political scientists have ascribed the relative bloodiness of the coup to the stability of the existing democratic system, which required extreme action to overturn.
The situation in Chile came to international attention in September 1976, when Orlando Letelier, a former Chilean ambassador to the United States and minister in Allende's cabinet, was assassinated in Washington, D.C. by a bomb in his car having been released from internment and exiled following international pressure especially by Diego Arria then Governor of Carracus.
General Carlos Prats, Pinochet's predecessor and army commander under Allende, who had resigned rather than support the moves against the democratic system, was assassinated under similar circumstances in Buenos Aires, Argentina, two years earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll#Genocide_and_democide

Pinochet's genocide claimed the lives of at least 3,000 civilians.

A) it didn't say "copied," it said "modeled after."

B) This was not publicly owned land as was the case in Guatemala, the 160 acres partiotioned out in the homestead act was owned by the government.

They were very similar. The Homestead Act parceled out undeveloped and uncultivated land to the yeoman, exactly the same way as Arbenz's "reforms". And yet, America isn't Communist. You must have been wrong about your idea of how Communism starts.

It was clear that Arbenz was not like Castro, the man you so readily compare him to. Castro invited him to join his movement, but he disliked and disagreed with its ideals and left.


Duke
 
Actually Marxism, is responsible for the destruction of that Democratic government. Pinochet was ordered by the Chilean Chamber of Deputies and Chile's Supreme Court to remove the tyrant Allende from power for his numerous violations of the Chilean Constitution.

This is another of your far out unsubstantiated claims. Obviously, Allende was no tyrant (he was democratically elected). His political enemies requested his removal, the same way Bush's political enemies request Bush's removal. Nothing peculiar there. You have yet to provide a link that anyone other than the CIA ORDERED Pinochet to remove him. I would like to say that I don't think you are making this up off the top of your head, but I know you too well to make that guess.


It's not historical fact that we supported the coup plotters, yes we gave military aid to Chile but there is no evidence that we supported the actual coup plotters.

How many times do I have to repeat this fact before it penetrates your skull and reaches your brain? Could I get an estimate?

The CIA has admitted supporting the people who overthrew the government. The CIA has admitted it. Get over it. You were wrong. There's nothing wrong with that, but the more you try to deny fact, the more pathetic you look. The CIA has admitted supporting the coup.


Duke
 
This is another of your far out unsubstantiated claims. Obviously, Allende was no tyrant (he was democratically elected). His political enemies requested his removal, the same way Bush's political enemies request Bush's removal. Nothing peculiar there. You have yet to provide a link that anyone other than the CIA ORDERED Pinochet to remove him. I would like to say that I don't think you are making this up off the top of your head, but I know you too well to make that guess.

Umm the Chamber of Deputies was Democratically elected too. Allende raped the Chilean Constitution on every level in order to set up his totalitarian Marxist government, and again you have yet to provide one source demonstrating how the CIA was in league with the military junta or how they "ordered," or supported the coup.


How many times do I have to repeat this fact before it penetrates your skull and reaches your brain? Could I get an estimate?

The CIA has admitted supporting the people who overthrew the government.

No they didn't infact they said the exact opposite.

The CIA has admitted it. Get over it. You were wrong.

No Colonel Sanders you're wrong I'm right.

There's nothing wrong with that, but the more you try to deny fact, the more pathetic you look. The CIA has admitted supporting the coup.


Duke

Well you're just a damn liar aint ya?
 
Not really, the referendum included only a Yes or No option, was held at different times across some parts of the country and the cause of Mossadeq had massive support in the country. Getting 99.9% is quite easy actually - I mean what Iranian in their right mind would vote against the nationalisation of Iran's oil out of the hands of foreign powers?

Again that's what the referendum was for, the referendum was to kill Egyptian Democracy, anyone who believes that any 99.9% ya vote is legitimate is really not worth talking to.

Rigging elections? What election?

The referendum.

Destroying the Iranian economy? Just ignoring the blockade are we, how convenient.

Mossadegh brought the blockade upon himself when he stole the British refineries. So like I said he destroyed the Iranian economy.

Dissolving Congress? Reforming it.

No sir he disolved congress and granted himself dictatorial powers.

Dictator? A guy with more democratic credentials than anyone in the country? Thats a dictator anyone would vote for.

Umm no actually the Shah was the head of state under the Iranian Constituition. The Shah restored the Democracy that Mossadegh had ended when he disolved Parliament, shredded the Iranian Constitution, and declared himself dictator.

Overestimate his popularity?? Im probably underestimating it bub.

If not for the massive hatred of Mossadegh the counter-coup would never have been successful.

Prosperity eh? Aw thats so nice. I suppose the lifting of the blockade is always a boost but an economically successful dictator, just like Hitler, just like Napoleon? By that argument we should have alot more of em. Up for that ToT?

The Shah was the Constitutionally made head of state, he never dissolved Parliament or did away with the Constitution that was Mossadegh you're thinking of.

Wow, so now Mossadeq was Hitler? Youll try anything to wriggle out. The guy spent most of his day wearing only his pyjamas and carrying his umbrella and you think he's Hitler? :rofl Try again.

Ya um just like Hitler he granted himself emergeny powers making him defacto dictator. He was also a national socialist.

Probably just as well he ignored the Egyptian constitution :lol: .

It was a good thing that he ignored the most liberal constitution in the entire middle east.

While you try to get your story straight ill reitirate the points on Mossadeq;

/ His government was subject to continual subterfuge and sabotage by the forces outside Iran while the country suffered under a British imposed blockade.
ii/ Iran was not long used to proper conduct of ballots, especially snap referendums.
iii/ Mossadeq previous record in public life is immpecable. In fact he had avoided leadership of the country until he was challenged by a right wing member of the Majlis to take a positive step. He called the man's bluff and was put in power on a wave of enthusiasm.
iv/
Although the referedum was crudely handled the popular support of the National Front is clear for very good historical reasons, making it likely that he would have won the referendum by some margin even if it had been done simultaneously with one voting booth.
v/ During his time in office he won support in the Majlis for tinkering with the system of representation - changing the Senate tenure from 6 to 2 years for example. This can be looked at as some attempt to subvert democracy however, you can also see it as his moves to reform an antiquated system. It should also be noted that Shah not long before had extended his powers over the country without any support.[/quote]


bla bla bla, bottom line, Mossadegh destroyed the Iranian economy, dissolved congress through an obviously rigged referendum, and then declared himself dictator and that is the man you're supporting.
 
Umm the Chamber of Deputies was Democratically elected too. Allende raped the Chilean Constitution on every level in order to set up his totalitarian Marxist government, and again you have yet to provide one source demonstrating how the CIA was in league with the military junta or how they "ordered," or supported the coup.

You just keep adding on unbacked claims, totally void of fact. What, then did he sodomize a puppy and put E.coli in the food, go around knifing old women, and begin a genocide? :roll: Get a clue. Or better yet, get an argument, get some facts.


No Colonel Sanders you're wrong I'm right.

Look, it's the "nuh-uh!!!" argument! Trajan's favorite!


Well you're just a damn liar aint ya?

Classic. When faced with irrefutable facts, he just fires up the insults and calls me a liar. The truth hurts, doesn't it?


Duke
 
You just keep adding on unbacked claims, totally void of fact. What, then did he sodomize a puppy and put E.coli in the food, go around knifing old women, and begin a genocide? :roll: Get a clue. Or better yet, get an argument, get some facts.

I already provided an argument, Allende was a tyrant and I have listed his numerous attacks on Chilean Democracy which even by his own admission he was seaking to topple:

"As for the bourgeois state, we are seeking to overcome it, to overthrow it." Regarding his allowance of democratic guarantees, they were only temporary - a "tactical necessity" for "the time being."

Marxism caused Allende's overthrow | csmonitor.com

Marxism and Allende killed Democracy in Chile not the U.S. or the CIA.


Look, it's the "nuh-uh!!!" argument! Trajan's favorite!




Classic. When faced with irrefutable facts, he just fires up the insults and calls me a liar. The truth hurts, doesn't it?


Duke

I'm not faced with anything you're a damned liar the CIA has stated the exact opposite of your assertion, you have yet to provide one scrap of evidence that we supported the coup plotters.

Regarding Pinochet's rise to power, the CIA undertook a comprehensive analysis of its records and individual memoirs as well as conducting interviews with former agents, and concluded in a report issued in 2000 that the CIA "did not assist Pinochet to assume the Presidency." [13]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EAGLE1
Not really, the referendum included only a Yes or No option, was held at different times across some parts of the country and the cause of Mossadeq had massive support in the country. Getting 99.9% is quite easy actually - I mean what Iranian in their right mind would vote against the nationalisation of Iran's oil out of the hands of foreign powers?

Again that's what the referendum was for, the referendum was to kill Egyptian Democracy, anyone who believes that any 99.9% ya vote is legitimate is really not worth talking to.

No idea why any Iranian would want to kill Egyptian democracy but you go ahead and tell us why.:lol:
Mossadeq was under pressure by a Majlis deliberatly filled by the CIA and MI6 with placemen while the country was being agitated by foreign regimes within their territory and blockaded from without. Read the CIA report.
Moreover its quite easy to see why almost everyone would vote Yes in that referendum.

Quote:
Rigging elections? What election?

The referendum.
Oh the referendum is it now? Why didnt you say so? :lol:

Quote:
Destroying the Iranian economy? Just ignoring the blockade are we, how convenient.

Mossadegh brought the blockade upon himself when he stole the British refineries. So like I said he destroyed the Iranian economy.

Gee whiz ToT, a government excercising its national sovereignty over its own resources, how terrible. I guess national sovereignty applies only in the rest of the world, not in Iran or the US. What a shame for you guys.


Quote:
Dissolving Congress? Reforming it.

No sir he disolved congress and granted himself dictatorial powers.

During his time in office he won support in the Majlis for tinkering with the system of representation - changing the Senate tenure from 6 to 2 years for example. This can be looked at as some attempt to subvert democracy however, you can also see it as his moves to reform an antiquated system. It should also be noted that Shah not long before had extended his powers over the country without any support.

Next.

Quote:
Dictator? A guy with more democratic credentials than anyone in the country? Thats a dictator anyone would vote for.

Umm no actually the Shah was the head of state under the Iranian Constituition. The Shah restored the Democracy that Mossadegh had ended when he disolved Parliament, shredded the Iranian Constitution, and declared himself dictator.
Restored democracy eh? That sounds nice. I guess you mean normal elections, no censorship and so state sponsored repression. Is what they had under the Shah going on in your country? Explains quite alot really.

The Shah was the Constitutionally made head of state, he never dissolved Parliament or did away with the Constitution that was Mossadegh you're thinking of.


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Wow, so now Mossadeq was Hitler? Youll try anything to wriggle out. The guy spent most of his day wearing only his pyjamas and carrying his umbrella and you think he's Hitler? Try again.

Ya um just like Hitler he granted himself emergeny powers making him defacto dictator. He was also a national socialist.

Mossadeq was reforming the system under continual foreign pressure with a massive support of the Iranian people who recognised that a nation should have the right to legislate on its own resources.

Gee ToT, if thats all it takes to be called a Nazi then I guess almost every country both during and since WW2 has been run by Nazi's. Who'd a thunk it?

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Overestimate his popularity?? Im probably underestimating it bub.

If not for the massive hatred of Mossadegh the counter-coup would never have been successful.

Really ToT. Massive hatred for Mossadeq. Can you prove it that he was hated by the majority of the country? Moreover, if so why need covert CIA and MI6 action then?

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Probably just as well he ignored the Egyptian constitution .

It was a good thing that he ignored the most liberal constitution in the entire middle east.

Cant see why he'd want to pay attention to the Egyptian constitution, but feel free to make you case. :lol:

While you try to get your story straight ill reitirate the points on Mossadeq;

/ His government was subject to continual subterfuge and sabotage by the forces outside Iran while the country suffered under a British imposed blockade.
ii/ Iran was not long used to proper conduct of ballots, especially snap referendums.
iii/ Mossadeq previous record in public life is immpecable. In fact he had avoided leadership of the country until he was challenged by a right wing member of the Majlis to take a positive step. He called the man's bluff and was put in power on a wave of enthusiasm.
iv/
Although the referedum was crudely handled the popular support of the National Front is clear for very good historical reasons, making it likely that he would have won the referendum by some margin even if it had been done simultaneously with one voting booth.
v/ During his time in office he won support in the Majlis for tinkering with the system of representation - changing the Senate tenure from 6 to 2 years for example. This can be looked at as some attempt to subvert democracy however, you can also see it as his moves to reform an antiquated system. It should also be noted that Shah not long before had extended his powers over the country without any support.


bla bla bla, bottom line, Mossadegh destroyed the Iranian economy, dissolved congress through an obviously rigged referendum, and then declared himself dictator and that is the man you're supporting.[/QUOTE]

'Bla bla bla'? Thats your argument ToT? Gee I thought you were pretty good at this, guess not. Lets see if you can actually answer these points some time, but in the meantime I'll just be happy if you can remember what country your bs'g about.:lol:
 
No idea why any Iranian would want to kill Egyptian democracy but you go ahead and tell us why.:lol:
Mossadeq was under pressure by a Majlis deliberatly filled by the CIA and MI6 with placemen while the country was being agitated by foreign regimes within their territory and blockaded from without. Read the CIA report.
Moreover its quite easy to see why almost everyone would vote Yes in that referendum.

If you think that 99.9% of the Iranian people voted to kill Democracy then you're really not worth talking to because anyone that brain washed by leftist propaganda will never except the fact that Mossadeq was a tyrant.


Gee whiz ToT, a government excercising its national sovereignty over its own resources, how terrible. I guess national sovereignty applies only in the rest of the world, not in Iran or the US. What a shame for you guys.

That was not Iranian property, the oil was there's, the refineries were British, if it had not been for the fact that Mossadeq stabbed the Brits in the back after they built the Iranian refineries then the blockade would never have occurred. Iran has one person to blame for the blockade and that is Mossadeq.

During his time in office he won support in the Majlis for tinkering with the system of representation - changing the Senate tenure from 6 to 2 years for example. This can be looked at as some attempt to subvert democracy however, you can also see it as his moves to reform an antiquated system.

Dissolving congress and declaring oneself dictator can not be looked at in any other way but to destroy Democracy.

It should also be noted that Shah not long before had extended his powers over the country without any support.

The Shah never dissolved parliament.


Restored democracy eh? That sounds nice. I guess you mean normal elections, no censorship and so state sponsored repression. Is what they had under the Shah going on in your country? Explains quite alot really.

Not only did the Shah restore Democracy but he gave equal suffrage for the first and last time in Iranian history.

Mossadeq was reforming the system under continual foreign pressure with a massive support of the Iranian people who recognised that a nation should have the right to legislate on its own resources.

If that's what you call dissolving congress through a fraudulent referendum and declaring oneself dictator than ya sure. :roll:


Really ToT. Massive hatred for Mossadeq. Can you prove it that he was hated by the majority of the country?

Yep it's all outlined right here:

http://www.ardeshirzahedi.org/cia-iran.pdf

Moreover, if so why need covert CIA and MI6 action then?

Why did the Shah want U.S. and U.K. aid? Well one would want all the help you could get when confronted by a tyrant like Mossadeq.
Cant see why he'd want to pay attention to the Egyptian constitution, but feel free to make you case. :lol:

I mispoke but regardless the point still stands, the Iranian Constitution was the most liberal and the ME and you just said you thought it would be a good thing to do. Why do you hate Democracy so much?




'Bla bla bla'? Thats your argument ToT? Gee I thought you were pretty good at this, guess not. Lets see if you can actually answer these points some time, but in the meantime I'll just be happy if you can remember what country your bs'g about.:lol:

I did answer the points, bottom line you support leftist tyrant and would justify dissolving parliament and declaring someone dictator by way of fraudulent referendums so long as you supported their political views.
 
I already provided an argument, Allende was a tyrant and I have listed his numerous attacks on Chilean Democracy which even by his own admission he was seaking to topple:



Marxism and Allende killed Democracy in Chile not the U.S. or the CIA.

Oh, according to the Christian Science Monitor... I see how it is. Let me go get some Democratic Underground or Moveon articles, let's keep it unbiased, right? :roll:

Regardless: it's historical fact that Pinochet overthrew the government on his own accord, albeit with the support of Allende's political enemies (of course). The Deputies did not get enough votes to impeach him (they needed two-thirds majority). Pinochet sensed that the government was weak, so he overthrew it. Do you think that the Chamber of Deputies wanted to lose their jobs at the hands of this general? They didn't like him either.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Terrorism/Chile Coup_USHand.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO309A.html

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/11/newsid_3199000/3199155.stm




I'm not faced with anything you're a damned liar the CIA has stated the exact opposite of your assertion, you have yet to provide one scrap of evidence that we supported the coup plotters.

Wow, these uncomfortable facts sure are getting you steamed, aren't they? I've shown you CIA documents describing how they helped the coup, I've shown you the CIA admitting that they helped overthrow Allende, but you just say it's lies, it's all lies, and you cuss, and you deny. You look like a three year old who wants a sucker but Mommy won't give him one.

On September 16, 1973, after Pinochet had assumed power, the following exchange about the coup took place between U.S. National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger and President Richard Nixon:
Nixon: Nothing new of any importance or is there?
Kissinger: Nothing of very great consequence. The Chilean thing is getting consolidated and of course the newspapers are bleeding because a pro-Communist government has been overthrown.
Nixon: Isn't that something. Isn't that something.
Kissinger: I mean instead of celebrating – in the Eisenhower period we would be heroes.
Nixon: Well we didn't – as you know – our hand doesn't show on this one though.
Kissinger: We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible.
Nixon: That is right. And that is the way it is going to be played.[9]

So there you have it, folks. The United States Government and the Central Intelligence Agency played a part in overthrowing a democratically elected government and establishing a highly genocidal, fascistic dictator in it's place! Can I get a round of applause?

Oh, stop bawling, little Trajan!


Duke
 
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