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What If Iran Had Invaded Mexico?

Is this a fair and accurate analogy?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • No

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • Maybe (if other conditions were present)

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • Not even close!

    Votes: 3 18.8%

  • Total voters
    16
Oh, according to the Christian Science Monitor... I see how it is. Let me go get some Democratic Underground or Moveon articles, let's keep it unbiased, right? :roll:

You're comparing the CSM which has one the pullitzer prize for journalism seven times to the DU and Moveon? Wow. :doh

"The answer is the proletariat. If it wasn't so I wouldn't be here [...] As for the bourgeois state, at the present moment, we are seeking to overcome it. To overthrow it. [...] Our objective is total, scientific, Marxist socialism" — In an interview with French Journalist Regis Debray in 1970.

"Santiago will be painted red with blood if I am not ratified as President." (after obtaining 36.2% of the vote, versus 34.9% second-place, in the 1970 plurality election).[1]

(Attributed) "I am not the president of all the Chileans. I am not a hypocrite that says so." — At a public rally, quoted by all Chilean newspapers, January 17, 1971. President Allende sent a public letter to El Mercurio newspaper to deny this alleged statement.

After all, Allende himself had confided to Regis Debray “that his differences with apostles of violence like Guevara were only ‘tactical,’ plus his admission that he was observing legality ‘for the time being,’ and his assertion that he had agreed to the Statute of Democratic Guarantees as a ‘tactical necessity’.” (Sigmund, p. 140). And his own Socialist Party, at its Congress in January 1971, had stated that “the special conditions under which Popular Unity came to power oblige it to observe the limits of a bourgeois state for now” and had warned its members to prepare for “the decisive confrontation with the bourgeoisie and imperialism.” (Sigmund, footnote 7/12)

The Allende myth - Political Forum : US & World Politics Discussion
Regardless: it's historical fact that Pinochet overthrew the government on his own accord, albeit with the support of Allende's political enemies (of course). The Deputies did not get enough votes to impeach him (they needed two-thirds majority). Pinochet sensed that the government was weak, so he overthrew it. Do you think that the Chamber of Deputies wanted to lose their jobs at the hands of this general? They didn't like him either.

The Chile Coup: The U.S. Hand

Chile, September 11, 1973: The Ingredients of a Military Coup

Declassified Documents Relating to the Military Coup in Chile

BBC ON THIS DAY | 11 | 1973: President overthrown in Chile coup

A) You're wrong Chile didn't have an impeachment procedure.

B) The resolution was passed by the Chilean Supreme Court and the Chilean Chamber of Deputies BEFORE the coup so why would they be worried about losing their jobs to Pinochet?

C) The coup would not have taken place without the resolutions against Pinochet.



Wow, these uncomfortable facts sure are getting you steamed, aren't they? I've shown you CIA documents describing how they helped the coup, I've shown you the CIA admitting that they helped overthrow Allende, but you just say it's lies, it's all lies, and you cuss, and you deny. You look like a three year old who wants a sucker but Mommy won't give him one.

You have not shown one article where the CIA admits that it aided the coup plotters. The most you have is us supporting dissident political groups like the CDP and funding dissident media outlets.

Regarding Pinochet's rise to power, the CIA undertook a comprehensive analysis of its records and individual memoirs as well as conducting interviews with former agents, and concluded in a report issued in 2000 that the CIA "did not assist Pinochet to assume the Presidency." [13]
So there you have it, folks. The United States Government and the Central Intelligence Agency played a part in overthrowing a democratically elected government and establishing a highly genocidal, fascistic dictator in it's place! Can I get a round of applause?

Oh, stop bawling, little Trajan!


Duke

Kissinger: "We didn't do it."
 
Last edited:
A) You're wrong Chile didn't have an impeachment procedure.

You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

He pointed out that the declaration (passed 81-47 in the Chamber of Deputies) had not obtained the two-thirds Senate majority constitutionally required to convict the president of abuse of power: essentially, they were "invoking the intervention of the Armed Forces and of Order against a democratically elected government" and "subordinat[ing] political representation of national sovereignty to the armed institutions, which neither can nor ought to assume either political functions or the representation of the popular will."

It's the equivalent of impeachment. Get your facts straight. Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't have facts.


B) The resolution was passed by the Chilean Supreme Court and the Chilean Chamber of Deputies BEFORE the coup so why would they be worried about losing their jobs to Pinochet?

Whoops, that point went right over your head. The Chilean Supreme Court nor the Chamber of Deputies supported or asked for a coup as you so claimed. They didn't want it any more than Allende, for they would get replaced too.




You have not shown one article where the CIA admits that it aided the coup plotters.

My God, you are thick! I have shown it to you multiple times, many times over, and the declassified CIA documents decsribing how they were working to unseat Allende!

http://foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/09/19/us.cia.chile.ap/

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/11/13/cia.chile.02/

THE CIA HAS ADMITTED HELPING OVERTHROW THE CHILEAN GOVERNMENT, YET YOU STILL DENY THEIR INVOLVEMENT. WHO SHOULD WE BELIEVE?

Kissinger: "We didn't do it."

Source? Did he say this before or after the truth came out? Did he say this to the President, his employer?


Duke
 
You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?


It's the equivalent of impeachment. Get your facts straight. Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't have facts.

It's not the equivalent of an impeachment procedure, the resolution of which Allende was referring to that called upon the military to end Allende's rule was as close to an impeachment procedure as they had.

Whoops, that point went right over your head. The Chilean Supreme Court nor the Chamber of Deputies supported or asked for a coup as you so claimed. They didn't want it any more than Allende, for they would get replaced too.

You have no idea what you're talking about the resolution was an appeal to the military to remove Allende by force, what do you think that resolution was for?

The Chamber of Deputies agrees:

First: To present the President of the Republic, Ministers of State, and members of the Armed and Police Forces with the grave breakdown of the legal and constitutional order of the Republic, the facts and circumstances of which are detailed in sections 5 to 12 above;

Second: To likewise point out that by virtue of their responsibilities, their pledge of allegiance to the Constitution and to the laws they have served, and in the case of the ministers, by virtue of the nature of the institutions of which they are high-ranking officials and of Him whose name they invoked upon taking office, it is their duty to put an immediate end to all situations herein referred to that breach the Constitution and the laws of the land with the goal of redirecting government activity toward the path of Law and ensuring the constitutional order of our Nation and the essential underpinnings of democratic coexistence among Chileans;

The resolution was a call for Allende's forcable removal from power.

My God, you are thick! I have shown it to you multiple times, many times over, and the declassified CIA documents decsribing how they were working to unseat Allende!

U.S. Dept. of State FOIA - Church Report (Covert Action in Chile 1963-1973)

CNN.com - CIA acknowledges involvement in Allende's overthrow, Pinochet's rise - September 19, 2000

CNN.com - Documents reveal U.S. funding for Chile coup - November 13, 2000

THE CIA HAS ADMITTED HELPING OVERTHROW THE CHILEAN GOVERNMENT, YET YOU STILL DENY THEIR INVOLVEMENT. WHO SHOULD WE BELIEVE?

The CIA has never admitted supporting the coup plotters in any way and there is no evidence that we did. We supported dissident political and media insitutions not the coup plotters.

Source? Did he say this before or after the truth came out? Did he say this to the President, his employer?


Duke

It's your source.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EAGLE1
No idea why any Iranian would want to kill Egyptian democracy but you go ahead and tell us why.
Mossadeq was under pressure by a Majlis deliberatly filled by the CIA and MI6 with placemen while the country was being agitated by foreign regimes within their territory and blockaded from without. Read the CIA report.
Moreover its quite easy to see why almost everyone would vote Yes in that referendum.


If you think that 99.9% of the Iranian people voted to kill Democracy then you're really not worth talking to because anyone that brain washed by leftist propaganda will never except the fact that Mossadeq was a tyrant.

Those votes were not to kill Iranian democracy, in fact even if they were they didnt say it on the ballot. Therefore a 99.9% is quite possible, especially given the other choice.
Save the insults about brainwashing for someone who cares.

Quote:
Gee whiz ToT, a government excercising its national sovereignty over its own resources, how terrible. I guess national sovereignty applies only in the rest of the world, not in Iran or the US. What a shame for you guys.

That was not Iranian property, the oil was there's, the refineries were British, if it had not been for the fact that Mossadeq stabbed the Brits in the back after they built the Iranian refineries then the blockade would never have occurred. Iran has one person to blame for the blockade and that is Mossadeq.
Really? Is there an independent international judgement willing to back that up? Stabbed the Brits in the back, quite a statement, do you actually know any of the history of the Iranian oil concession? Remember to get the country right before you start reading though.

Quote:
During his time in office he won support in the Majlis for tinkering with the system of representation - changing the Senate tenure from 6 to 2 years for example. This can be looked at as some attempt to subvert democracy however, you can also see it as his moves to reform an antiquated system.

Dissolving congress and declaring oneself dictator can not be looked at in any other way but to destroy Democracy.
Really says who? Gonna expand on that bland statement? You seem awfully willing to give the last Shah every benefit of the doubt yet none for Mossadeq - bet I can guess why.

Quote:
It should also be noted that Shah not long before had extended his powers over the country without any support.

The Shah never dissolved parliament.
No what the Shah did was extend his powers over the country without any support, as said. Would you be happy with Bush doing the same?

Quote:
Restored democracy eh? That sounds nice. I guess you mean normal elections, no censorship and so state sponsored repression. Is what they had under the Shah going on in your country? Explains quite alot really.

Not only did the Shah restore Democracy but he gave equal suffrage for the first and last time in Iranian history

This is getting interesting, please tell us all about this democracy the Shah brought in. Women's suffrage for the last time? Sure you know what you're talking about ToT? Remember its Iran not Egypt.

Quote:
Really ToT. Massive hatred for Mossadeq. Can you prove it that he was hated by the majority of the country?

Yep it's all outlined right here:

http://www.ardeshirzahedi.org/cia-iran.pdf

Wow thats wonderful, a peice written by the child of the very man who was installed in place of Mossadeq. What else do you expect? Why not just read the CIAs own report?

Specifically why not just read Kermit Roosevelt's own account in his own book were he describes drinking with his CIA buddies while their bribed Iranians were marching through the streets. Is that the support you're talking about ToT? :lol:

Quote:
Moreover, if so why need covert CIA and MI6 action then?

Why did the Shah want U.S. and U.K. aid? Well one would want all the help you could get when confronted by a tyrant like Mossadeq.
:lol: Again you show your ignorance. The Shah didnt recruit the CIA and MI6 to the plot, they recruited him to the plot.

Quote:
Cant see why he'd want to pay attention to the Egyptian constitution, but feel free to make you case.

I mispoke but regardless the point still stands, the Iranian Constitution was the most liberal and the ME and you just said you thought it would be a good thing to do. Why do you hate Democracy so much?

Because you were talking about Egypt. Why wouldnt Mossadeq ignore the Egyptian constitution?
There's a big difference between typing Egypt and typing Iran, mixing the two up is surely proof that you lumo these countries together and think very little on the subject at hand but to further your tenuous ideological ends.

Quote:
'Bla bla bla'? Thats your argument ToT? Gee I thought you were pretty good at this, guess not. Lets see if you can actually answer these points some time, but in the meantime I'll just be happy if you can remember what country your bs'g about.

I did answer the points, bottom line you support leftist tyrant and would justify dissolving parliament and declaring someone dictator by way of fraudulent referendums so long as you supported their political views.

'bla bla bla' and 'bottom line' are no answers ToT. What if I simply answered with 'bottom line you support right wing tyrants and the machinations of Western powers intent on securing their oil interests at the expense of every person and every ideal they claim to hold'. Its a general statement, not an answer to points made.
Gee ToT, mixing up countries and making general statements to cover your escape - youve won debates before, surely you can do better.
 
Those votes were not to kill Iranian democracy, in fact even if they were they didnt say it on the ballot. Therefore a 99.9% is quite possible, especially given the other choice.
Save the insults about brainwashing for someone who cares.

The vote was not to kill Democracy? O.K. then what do you call dissolving Parliament? What if Tony Blair dissolved British Parliament and declared himself dictator?

Really? Is there an independent international judgement willing to back that up? Stabbed the Brits in the back, quite a statement, do you actually know any of the history of the Iranian oil concession? Remember to get the country right before you start reading though.

I know that the British had every right to blockade Iran after their defacto dictator stole their refineries.

Really says who? Gonna expand on that bland statement? You seem awfully willing to give the last Shah every benefit of the doubt yet none for Mossadeq - bet I can guess why.

No what the Shah did was extend his powers over the country without any support, as said. Would you be happy with Bush doing the same?

He didn't dissolve Parliament and he didn't ignore the Egyptian Constitution in order to declare himself dictator.

This is getting interesting, please tell us all about this democracy the Shah brought in. Women's suffrage for the last time? Sure you know what you're talking about ToT? Remember its Iran not Egypt.

It's called the White Revolution and it took away power from the Islamic Fascists which is one of the main reason for the Shah's overthrow.

Wow thats wonderful, a peice written by the child of the very man who was installed in place of Mossadeq. What else do you expect? Why not just read the CIAs own report?

Specifically why not just read Kermit Roosevelt's own account in his own book were he describes drinking with his CIA buddies while their bribed Iranians were marching through the streets. Is that the support you're talking about ToT? :lol:

Ya umm where in Roosevelt's accord does it mention the popularity levels at the time?


:lol: Again you show your ignorance. The Shah didnt recruit the CIA and MI6 to the plot, they recruited him to the plot.

Mmmhmm because the Shah didn't want Mossadegh out of power right? It wasn't a collaborative relationship was it?

Because you were talking about Egypt. Why wouldnt Mossadeq ignore the Egyptian constitution?
There's a big difference between typing Egypt and typing Iran, mixing the two up is surely proof that you lumo these countries together and think very little on the subject at hand but to further your tenuous ideological ends.

Allright I see what you're saying, however, my point still stands the Shah never dissolved Parliament or the IRANIAN Constitution as Mossadegh had done and was doing.

'bla bla bla' and 'bottom line' are no answers ToT. What if I simply answered with 'bottom line you support right wing tyrants and the machinations of Western powers intent on securing their oil interests at the expense of every person and every ideal they claim to hold'. Its a general statement, not an answer to points made.

WTF ever dude Mossadegh dissolved Parliament through an obviously rigged referendum and then declared himself defacto dictator in a country prior to him coming to power had the most liberal Constitution in the Middle East.
 
It's not the equivalent of an impeachment procedure, the resolution of which Allende was referring to that called upon the military to end Allende's rule was as close to an impeachment procedure as they had.

Get your head out your derriére. The vote that would have removed him from power legally failed. Their name for it is not "impeachment", but the premise is similar: removing the president from office. You seem to think that everyone in Chile was just begging for him to be removed by Pinochet; this is patently false. The Chilean government did not want the military under Pinochet to remove him, that was the last thing they wanted, because they were a democracy and he was going to make a dictatorship.



You have no idea what you're talking about the resolution was an appeal to the military to remove Allende by force, what do you think that resolution was for?

The resolution was a call for Allende's forcable removal from power.


It was for the opposition parties by the opposition parties: they were so steamed that they weren't able to impeach him, that they railed against him a little bit. It happens all the time. Sure, they wanted him removed. Of course they didn't want the executive branch controlled by their opposition. But I can tell you one thing they didn't want and never supported: A military coup destroying their democracy and replacing it with a fascistic dictatorship (which you seem to be going to no end to defend).


The CIA has never admitted supporting the coup plotters in any way and there is no evidence that we did.

Why are you so adamant on defending a position for which you have no facts and on which all of the facts are against you?

You. Are. Wrong.

http://foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp

Twenty-five years ago, tanks rumbled through the streets of Chile, terrified civilians were lined up before firing squads at the National Stadium, the elected president was dead.

Yet, at Richard Nixon's White House, the events were a cause for celebration, a culmination of three years of covert operations, propaganda and economic sabotage.

Newly declassified U.S. government records put Washington's role in the Chilean coup in sharper focus than ever before. The papers also shed light on corners of the story that previously had been suspected, but not proven.

The documents describe how an angry Nixon demanded a coup, if necessary, to block the inauguration of Marxist Salvador Allende following his victory in the 1970 Chilean elections.

The documents reveal that an early coup plan -- known as "Track II" -- continued through the assassination of pro-constitutional Chilean Gen. Rene Schneider, who was gunned down by military plotters on Oct. 22, 1970.

The fuller documentary record contradicts the long-standing claim by former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger that "Track n" was shut down a week before Schneider's murder.

After Allende's inauguration, Nixon did not give up. The documents detail what his administration did to make the Chilean economy "scream," how the CIA spread "black" propaganda, and how Washington finally goaded the Chilean army into the coup of 1973.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Terrorism/Chile Coup_USHand.html


Thirty years ago on September 11, 1973, the Chilean military led by General Augusto Pinochet, crushed the democratically elected Unidad Popular government of Salvador Allende.

The objective was to replace a progressive, democratically elected government by a brutal military dictatorship.

The military coup was supported by the CIA. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger played a direct role in the military plot. (For details see http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KOR309A.html and references below).

In the weeks leading up the coup, US Ambassador Nathaniel Davis and members of the CIA held meetings with Chile's top military brass together with the leaders of the National Party and the ultra-right nationalist front Patria y Libertad. The undercover role the Nixon administration is amply documented
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO309A.html

September 11, 1998 marks the twenty-fifth anniversary of the military coup led by General Augusto Pinochet. The violent overthrow of the democratically-elected Popular Unity government of Salvador Allende changed the course of the country that Chilean poet Pablo Neruda described as "a long petal of sea, wine and snow"; because of CIA covert intervention in Chile, and the repressive character of General Pinochet's rule, the coup became the most notorious military takeover in the annals of Latin American history.

Revelations that President Richard Nixon had ordered the CIA to "make the economy scream" in Chile to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him," prompted a major scandal in the mid-1970s, and a major investigation by the U.S. Senate. Since the coup, however, few U.S. documents relating to Chile have been actually declassified- -until recently. Through Freedom of Information Act requests, and other avenues of declassification, the National Security Archive has been able to compile a collection of declassified records that shed light on events in Chile between 1970 and 1976.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

BBC--Reports claimed thousands had died - but the military junta said fewer than 100 people lost their lives in the CIA-backed uprising.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/11/newsid_3199000/3199155.stm

http://foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/09/19/us.cia.chile.ap/

CIA acknowledges involvement in Allende's overthrow, Pinochet's rise



WASHINGTON (AP) -- The CIA is acknowledging for the first time the extent of its deep involvement in Chile, where it dealt with coup-plotters, false propagandists and assassins.


It also disclosed for the first time a CIA payment to secret police head Gen. Manuel Contreras Sepulveda, the head of the military regime's feared secret police, whom the CIA knew to be involved in post-Allende human rights abuses.


http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/11/13/cia.chile.02/

Documents reveal U.S. funding for Chile coup

"We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible. — Henry Kissinger conversing with President Nixon about the coup.

No, they didn't "do it". Of course not. Pinochet "did it". We helped. It's that simple.

And then there's this.

http://foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp

The Senate document detailing the CIA's role in the coup, their involvement. Irrefutable fact. I have already shown you them, the facts that the CIA was involved in the coup, straight from the horse's mouth. You can accept these facts or you can deny them. That is up to you. There is one choice that will make you look considerably less like an idiot, but I'm not telling you which.


Duke
 
Get your head out your derriére. The vote that would have removed him from power legally failed. Their name for it is not "impeachment", but the premise is similar: removing the president from office. You seem to think that everyone in Chile was just begging for him to be removed by Pinochet; this is patently false. The Chilean government did not want the military under Pinochet to remove him, that was the last thing they wanted, because they were a democracy and he was going to make a dictatorship.

Apparently you didn't read the resolution it was a direct appeal to the Chilean military to remove Allende from power.


It was for the opposition parties by the opposition parties: they were so steamed that they weren't able to impeach him, that they railed against him a little bit. It happens all the time. Sure, they wanted him removed. Of course they didn't want the executive branch controlled by their opposition. But I can tell you one thing they didn't want and never supported: A military coup destroying their democracy and replacing it with a fascistic dictatorship (which you seem to be going to no end to defend).

A) They were once in a coalition party with Allende until Allende shredded the Chilean Constitution.

B) The resolution was a direct appeal to the Chilean military to remove Allende from power.

C) It was Allende that killed Democracy in Chile.


Show me where we funded, armed, or supported the coup plotters, the released CIA documents show how we attempted to remove Allende before he was sworn in not after, they show that we funded opposition political and media groups, what these documents do not show is that we funded, armed, or supported the coup plotters in any way, shape, or form, and there is avery good reason for that; WE DIDN'T, infact the CIA in an indepth analysis of their documentation from that time has concluded the exact opposite of what you are asserting they admitted to.


"We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible. — Henry Kissinger conversing with President Nixon about the coup.

No, they didn't "do it". Of course not. Pinochet "did it". We helped. It's that simple.

Ya he states flatly that "we didn't do it," IE we didn't support the coup plotters those conditions he was referring to were denying Chile loans, and funding opposition political and media outlets.

And then there's this.

U.S. Dept. of State FOIA - Church Report (Covert Action in Chile 1963-1973)

The Senate document detailing the CIA's role in the coup, their involvement. Irrefutable fact. I have already shown you them, the facts that the CIA was involved in the coup, straight from the horse's mouth. You can accept these facts or you can deny them. That is up to you. There is one choice that will make you look considerably less like an idiot, but I'm not telling you which.


Duke

Dude you can post the same crap all you want and I will give you the exact same response everytime; not one of your sources shows how the CIA supported, funded, or armed the coup plotters.
 
Apparently you didn't read the resolution it was a direct appeal to the Chilean military to remove Allende from power.

No need to repeat yourself. Did Allende's political opposition want him out of power? Of course. Would they support a violent removal of power? Yes, they were that radical. But did they support the total destruction of the Chilean government to be replaced by a fascistic dictatorship ruled by a genocidal despot? Hell no. They did not support this coup.



C) It was Allende that killed Democracy in Chile.

So, when Pinochet overthrew the government and destroyed democracy, he really wasn't doing anything at all? Right. You sound more and more like the lawyer who defends the rapist by saying that the rape victim was asking for it.


Show me where we funded,

According to a chronology of 40 Committee meetings, the Committee met on 23 separate occasions between March 1970 and October 1973 to authorize funds for covert activities in Chile(9). During this period, the Committee authorized a total of $8.8 million for CIA covert activities in Chile. Of this amount, $6.5 million was spent.

The range of CIA activities in Chile approved by the 40 Committee included "spoiling" operations against Allende prior to the September 4th election, assistance to Chilean political parties, a contingency fund for Ambassador Korry's use to influence the October 24 congressional vote, purchase of a Chilean radio station to be used as a political opposition instrument against Allende, assistance to specific political candidates, emergency aid to keep the Santiago paper, El Mercurio, afloat, and support for an anti-Allende businessmen's association.


The CIA attempted, directly, to foment a military coup in Chile. It passed three weapons to a group of Chilean officers who plotted a coup.

It quickly became apparent to both White House and CIA officials that a military coup was the only way to prevent Allende's accession to power. To achieve that end, the CIA established contact with several groups of military plotters and eventually passed three weapons and tear gas to one group.

or supported the coup plotters,

the United States - by its previous actions during Track II, its existing general posture of opposition to Allende, and the nature of its contacts with the Chilean military- probably gave the impression that it would not look with disfavor on a military coup. And U.S. officials in the years before 1973 may not always have succeeded in walking the thin line between monitoring indigenous coup plotting and actually stimulating it.

We set the stage. We made the conditions as great as possible, so sayeth Kissinger.




Ya he states flatly that "we didn't do it," IE we didn't support the coup plotters those conditions he was referring to were denying Chile loans, and funding opposition political and media outlets.


Wow, look at you twist his words so far out of contex. Ya he states flatly that "we didn't do it," IE we didn't kill OJ's wife. :roll:

Let us analyze.

On September 16, 1973, after Pinochet had assumed power, the following exchange about the coup took place between U.S. National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger and President Richard Nixon:
Nixon: Nothing new of any importance or is there?
Kissinger: Nothing of very great consequence. The Chilean thing is getting consolidated and of course the newspapers are bleeding because a pro-Communist government has been overthrown.
Nixon: Isn't that something. Isn't that something.
Kissinger: I mean instead of celebrating – in the Eisenhower period we would be heroes.
Nixon: Well we didn't – as you know – our hand doesn't show on this one though.
Kissinger: We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible.
Nixon: That is right. And that is the way it is going to be played.[9]

The Chilean Thing=the coup.
Our hand doesn't show=The public doesn't know we are involved
We didn't do it=The US did not orchestrated the coup.
I mean we helped them=We aided the coup.
Created the conditions as great as possible=Allowed for the coup to take place by influencing atmosphere, conditions.





Dude you can post the same crap all you want and I will give you the exact same response everytime;

Right, every time I post irrefutable fact you just say, "nuh-uh" and pretend it isn't there.


Duke
 
No need to repeat yourself. Did Allende's political opposition want him out of power? Of course. Would they support a violent removal of power? Yes, they were that radical. But did they support the total destruction of the Chilean government to be replaced by a fascistic dictatorship ruled by a genocidal despot? Hell no. They did not support this coup.

It was a direct appeal to the military higher ups to remove Allende from power.

So, when Pinochet overthrew the government and destroyed democracy, he really wasn't doing anything at all? Right. You sound more and more like the lawyer who defends the rapist by saying that the rape victim was asking for it.

Pinochet stopped a Marxist takeover in Chile, today instead of a Cuba clone Chile is Democratic and prosperess.

Furthermore; in your next three points where I asked you to show me where we funded, armed, and supported the coup plotters you showed me where we armed the 1970 coup plotters before Allende even assumed power, you showed me where we funded opposition political parties and the like, and then you showed me some crap about us "probably giving the impression of not looking with disfavor," but nowhere did you show me where we funded, armed, or supported the 1973 coup plotters, try try again.



We set the stage. We made the conditions as great as possible, so sayeth Kissinger.

And by that he means we funded opposition political and media outlets and denied Chile loans and aid.



Wow, look at you twist his words so far out of contex. Ya he states flatly that "we didn't do it," IE we didn't kill OJ's wife. :roll:

Let us analyze.



The Chilean Thing=the coup.

Yep.

Our hand doesn't show=The public doesn't know we are involved

Nope it doesn't show because we did not do it.

We didn't do it=The US did not orchestrated the coup.

Exactly.

I mean we helped them=We aided the coup.

Nope we influenced certain things within the country in order to garnish disenfranchisement amongst the Chilean populace in order for them to turn against the Allende regime.

Created the conditions as great as possible=Allowed for the coup to take place by influencing atmosphere, conditions.

Yep, what we did was deny loans, and finance opposition political parties, what we did not do is fund, support, or arm the coup plotters, they were working independently without U.S. approval or aid.
 
It was a direct appeal to the military higher ups to remove Allende from power.

You missed/avoided the point completely.

I said this:

"Did Allende's political opposition want him out of power? Of course. Would they support a violent removal of power? Yes, they were that radical. But did they support the total destruction of the Chilean government to be replaced by a fascistic dictatorship ruled by a genocidal despot? Hell no. They did not support this coup. "


Pinochet stopped a Marxist takeover in Chile, today instead of a Cuba clone Chile is Democratic and prosperess.

That's laughable. I can claim that Bush is establishing a Naziesque state, but that doesn't make it true.


nowhere did you show me where we funded, armed, or supported the 1973 coup plotters, try try again.

Try again? I have posted link after link, source after source, that have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that we were involved in the overthrow of the Chilean government. You have refuted none, you have not refuted one fact that I have put in front of you. You have simply pretended that they don't exist. You ask for proof, I give you proof, you pretend I didn't give you proof, and you ask for proof. It's both pathetic and idiotic.




And by that he means we funded opposition political and media outlets and denied Chile loans and aid.

Not at all. By that he means we helped the coup take place. It's amazing how you lie to yourself this way.



Nope it doesn't show because we did not do it.

This is a primary example of circular logic. I show you Kissinger saying we were involved with the coup, saying that the US's "hand doesn't show" in the affairs of Chile. You say this can't be true because we didn't do it.

Do you know what "our hand doesn't show" means? It means people can't see what we have, what we're doing. If we weren't doing anything at all, there wouldn't be a hand, would there? There would be nothing to show. By saying "our hand doesn't show", he is recognizing that we are doing something subtle and covert. He says what that is later: we "created the conditions as great as possible."



Nope we influenced certain things within the country in order to garnish disenfranchisement amongst the Chilean populace in order for them to turn against the Allende regime.

Are you disagreeing with Kissinger on what Kissinger said? He said we helped them, in reference to the men who did the coup. That is what he said.

"Kissinger: We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible."

We didn't do the coup. We helped them. Period. That is what Kissinger said. We helped the coup plotters. Going to argue with Secretary of State on what he said?


Duke
 
You missed/avoided the point completely.

I said this:

"Did Allende's political opposition want him out of power? Of course. Would they support a violent removal of power? Yes, they were that radical. But did they support the total destruction of the Chilean government to be replaced by a fascistic dictatorship ruled by a genocidal despot? Hell no. They did not support this coup. "

And you're wrong, they did support the coup the resolution passed by the Chamber of Deputies was a call for the military to remove Allende from power which is exactly what happened.

That's laughable. I can claim that Bush is establishing a Naziesque state, but that doesn't make it true.

A) I'm not claiming it Allende himself stated that that was his precise goal and I think he would know:

"The answer is the proletariat. If it wasn't so I wouldn't be here [...] As for the bourgeois state, at the present moment, we are seeking to overcome it. To overthrow it. [...] Our objective is total, scientific, Marxist socialism" — In an interview with French Journalist Regis Debray in 1970.

As for Democracy it was merely a "tactical necessity," for "the time being."

B) The proof is in the pudding just read the resolutions by the Supreme Court and the Chamber of Deputies.


Try again? I have posted link after link, source after source, that have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that we were involved in the overthrow of the Chilean government. You have refuted none, you have not refuted one fact that I have put in front of you. You have simply pretended that they don't exist. You ask for proof, I give you proof, you pretend I didn't give you proof, and you ask for proof. It's both pathetic and idiotic.

I'm not pretending anything you asserted that we aided the coup plotters, we did not, what we did was support political and media outlets and deny financial loans, that is not the same thing as aiding the coup plotters. By your standards if foreign media outlets who oppose the current administration had investments in the U.S. (as they do) they would be guilty of attempting to overthrow the U.S. government. On one side you have supporting, funding, and arming the coup plotters and the other you have a policy of undermining Allende's authority by supporting opposition political and media groups. Not the same thing, not even close.


Not at all. By that he means we helped the coup take place. It's amazing how you lie to yourself this way.

O.K. and how exactly did we do that? Aside from funding opposition political and media outlets and denying loans did we help the coup take place?

This is a primary example of circular logic. I show you Kissinger saying we were involved with the coup,

That's not what he said, he clearly said "we didn't do it."

saying that the US's "hand doesn't show" in the affairs of Chile. You say this can't be true because we didn't do it.

Our hands didn't show because "we didn't do it," if we did do it then our hands would show, see how that works?

Do you know what "our hand doesn't show" means? It means people can't see what we have, what we're doing.

Then why was the first four words "we didn't do it?"

If we weren't doing anything at all, there wouldn't be a hand, would there?

Yes there would be a hand and if it showed that would have meant we were involved.

There would be nothing to show. By saying "our hand doesn't show", he is recognizing that we are doing something subtle and covert. He says what that is later: we "created the conditions as great as possible."

And how did we create those conditions, you got it by funding oppostion political and media outlets and putting economic strain on their economy by denying loans in response to their nationalization of our assets, not by supporting, arming, or funding the coup plotters.

Are you disagreeing with Kissinger on what Kissinger said? He said we helped them, in reference to the men who did the coup. That is what he said.

Yes we helped them by creating the conditions, he was not saying that we directly funded, armed, or supported them, IE it wasn't a collobarative relationship, what he meant was how we funded opposition media and political outlets, and denied loans, those very same things that you showed me as your evidence that we supported the coup plotters.

"Kissinger: We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible."

We didn't do the coup. We helped them. Period. That is what Kissinger said. We helped the coup plotters. Going to argue with Secretary of State on what he said?

You're totaly misinterpreting him, if you read the CIA documents that you were kind enough to present it will be clear what he meant by that statement, not that we supported the actual coup plotters but rather through supporting opposition political and media outlets and putting strain on their economy we de-legitimized the Allende regime which prompted the Chamber of Deputies to request the military to remove Allende from power.
 
And you're wrong, they did support the coup the resolution passed by the Chamber of Deputies was a call for the military to remove Allende from power which is exactly what happened.
How many times am I going to have to repeat myself before you get the flipping picture? The Chamber of Deputies wanted him removed by the military. They wanted him out at the end of a gun, to be replaced by another, presumably elected, president, or a brief de facto leader.

THE CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES WANTED ALLENDE OUT OF OFFICE. THEY DID NOT WANT A GENERAL TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT, DESTROY THEIR DEMOCRACY, ESTABLISH A DICTATORSHIP WITH HIMSELF AS DICTATOR, AND START KILLING PEOPLE. THEY DID NOT SUPPORT PINOCHET.

Every time I say this, you respond with "They wanted the military to remove him" Yes they did! But the didn't want Pinochet to become their dictator! Get it now?

B) The proof is in the pudding just read the resolutions by the Supreme Court and the Chamber of Deputies.

Really? Could you point to me where in those documents it states that they wanted a tyrant instead of the democracy they themselves were a part of? I would like to see that.







O.K. and how exactly did we do that? Aside from funding opposition political and media outlets and denying loans did we help the coup take place?

Many CIA documents on the coup are still classified. Nobody outside of the government knows.


That's not what he said, he clearly said "we didn't do it."

Yes, he did say, quite clearly, that we helped. Did we do the coup? Nope! But we sure helped!

Our hands didn't show because "we didn't do it," if we did do it then our hands would show, see how that works?

WHY WOULD WE BE WORRYING OUR HANDS SHOWING IF WE WEREN'T PLAYING THE CARD GAME, TRAJAN?


Then why was the first four words "we didn't do it?"

Because we didn't. We helped.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0527-01.htm

This is a conversation between the President and the Secretary of State about a recent coup of Chile, in which one General Augusto Pinochet took power through use of force.

Nixon: Nothing new of any importance or is there?
Kissinger: Nothing of very great consequence. The Chilean thing is getting consolidated and of course the newspapers are bleeding because a pro-Communist government has been overthrown.
Nixon: Isn't that something. Isn't that something.
Kissinger: I mean instead of celebrating – in the Eisenhower period we would be heroes.
Nixon: Well we didn't – as you know – our hand doesn't show on this one though.
Kissinger: We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible.
Nixon: That is right. And that is the way it is going to be played.[9]

Nixon is wondering if America's hand shows in this issue, if people can see that we were involved. Kissinger assures him that nobody can see that. He says, "We didn't do it". He is referring to the coup But he amends that statement, "I mean we helped them." He is referring the coup and those who did do it. He elaborates: "[Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible." He is saying that we made the conditions as coup-friendly as we could, as great as possible for the coup and those plotting it, thereby aiding the coup plotters. I rest my case.


Yes we helped them

HALLELUJAH! HE ADMITS IT! THANK YOU JESUS

You are very brave, admitting you were wrong when you said we did zero, zip, nada, with the coup. It takes a brave man to admit he's wrong, I'd like to shake you hand.


Duke
 
How many times am I going to have to repeat myself before you get the flipping picture? The Chamber of Deputies wanted him removed by the military. They wanted him out at the end of a gun, to be replaced by another, presumably elected, president, or a brief de facto leader.

THE CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES WANTED ALLENDE OUT OF OFFICE. THEY DID NOT WANT A GENERAL TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT, DESTROY THEIR DEMOCRACY, ESTABLISH A DICTATORSHIP WITH HIMSELF AS DICTATOR, AND START KILLING PEOPLE. THEY DID NOT SUPPORT PINOCHET.

Every time I say this, you respond with "They wanted the military to remove him" Yes they did! But the didn't want Pinochet to become their dictator! Get it now?

Really? Could you point to me where in those documents it states that they wanted a tyrant instead of the democracy they themselves were a part of? I would like to see that.

Fair enough, I thought you were saying that the resolution was not an order to have Allende removed from power.


Many CIA documents on the coup are still classified. Nobody outside of the government knows.

The CIA analyzed all of their documents from Venezuela and concluded that we did not do the coup.

Yes, he did say, quite clearly, that we helped. Did we do the coup? Nope! But we sure helped!

Ya through supporting opposition media outlets and the like, how do you know we didn't want Allende removed through Democratic means?

WHY WOULD WE BE WORRYING OUR HANDS SHOWING IF WE WEREN'T PLAYING THE CARD GAME, TRAJAN?




Because we didn't. We helped.

New Transcripts Point to US Role in Chile Coup

This is a conversation between the President and the Secretary of State about a recent coup of Chile, in which one General Augusto Pinochet took power through use of force.



Nixon is wondering if America's hand shows in this issue, if people can see that we were involved. Kissinger assures him that nobody can see that. He says, "We didn't do it". He is referring to the coup But he amends that statement, "I mean we helped them." He is referring the coup and those who did do it. He elaborates: "[Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible." He is saying that we made the conditions as coup-friendly as we could, as great as possible for the coup and those plotting it, thereby aiding the coup plotters. I rest my case.




HALLELUJAH! HE ADMITS IT! THANK YOU JESUS

You are very brave, admitting you were wrong when you said we did zero, zip, nada, with the coup. It takes a brave man to admit he's wrong, I'd like to shake you hand.


Duke

I'm not admitting anything we didn't aid the coup plotters we funded opposition media outlets, political groups, and put strains on the economy, that's why our hands didn't show in the actual coup de'ta.
 
The CIA analyzed all of their documents from Venezuela and concluded that we did not do the coup.

No surprise there. The CIA isn't going to incriminate itself unless it absolutely has to. The documents we have now weren't given up willingly, but through the Freedom of Information Act.



Ya through supporting opposition media outlets and the like, how do you know we didn't want Allende removed through Democratic means?

How do I know we didn't want him removed through Democratic means. When you say things like this, Trajan, I wonder if you have been paying any attention at all, this entire time. Let me think: we tried to instigate a coup in 1970? That's kind of a hint as to what way we wanted him removed.
Kissinger said we helped, we helped the coup plotters. We don't know how we helped. Your guess is as good as mine.

I'm not admitting anything we didn't aid the coup plotters we funded opposition media outlets, political groups, and put strains on the economy, that's why our hands didn't show in the actual coup de'ta.

We did aid the coup plotters. Don't play semantics with me. We helped them, we also aided them, we assisted them, we supported them, you name it. Kissinger confessed.


Duke
 
No surprise there. The CIA isn't going to incriminate itself unless it absolutely has to. The documents we have now weren't given up willingly, but through the Freedom of Information Act.

They admitted to directly supporting the overthrow of Mossadegh and Arbenz why not Allende?

How do I know we didn't want him removed through Democratic means. When you say things like this, Trajan, I wonder if you have been paying any attention at all, this entire time. Let me think: we tried to instigate a coup in 1970? That's kind of a hint as to what way we wanted him removed.

A) That was prior to Allende assuming power, none of the documents show that the U.S. was willing to use force to have him removed after 1970.

B) Considering that Allende was making public statements that he wanted to overthrow the Chilean Republic, end democracy, and install a totalitarian communist dictatorship it would have been a counter-coup.


Kissinger said we helped, we helped the coup plotters. We don't know how we helped. Your guess is as good as mine.

No he didn't you're misinterpreting him, he was saying that we helped create massive opposition against Allende amongst the Chilean public which is exactly what the CIA documents show that we did, what they do not show is us supporting the coup plotters.

We did aid the coup plotters. Don't play semantics with me. We helped them, we also aided them, we assisted them, we supported them, you name it. Kissinger confessed.


Duke

It's not semantics on the one hand we have supporting dissident political and media outlets and on the other we have supporting the actual coup plotters. Supporting these groups was a reaction to Allende setting up his communist regime through turning the schools and the media outlets of Chile into Marxist propaganda machines while simultaneously creating class warfare through land redistribution and forming his own armed militias who swore allegiance directly to him not the Constitution and the people of the Republic of Chile. Afterall it was Allende himself who said that he: "doesn't represent all Chileans."
 
They admitted to directly supporting the overthrow of Mossadegh and Arbenz why not Allende?

Kissinger did admit it. Why haven't they admitted it publicly, you mean. Well, Pinochet got a lot of bad press. People, even Americans, remember Pinochet. The coup also got lots of attention. The CIA wouldn't want to put itself in their category until they absolutely have to, if ever.



A) That was prior to Allende assuming power, none of the documents show that the U.S. was willing to use force to have him removed after 1970.

You asked this:
"how do you know we didn't want Allende removed through Democratic means?"

I answer with this:


On September 15[After Allende was elected], President Nixon informed CIA Director Richard Helms that an Allende regime in Chile would not be acceptable to the United States and instructed the CIA to ploy a direct role in organizing a military coup d'etat in Chile to prevent Allende's accession to the Presidency.


No he didn't you're misinterpreting him, he was saying that we helped create massive opposition against Allende amongst the Chilean public

Really? Could you point out where in the statrment "We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible" it says we helped create massive opposition against Allende amongst the Chilean public, and nothing more? Couldn't by "We helped them, created the conditions as great as possible", he mean gave the coup plotters tactical information, money, and other support?


which is exactly what the CIA documents show that we did, what they do not show is us supporting the coup plotters.

The CIA documents that have been released do not show this. But Kissinger was kind enough to fill in the blanks.


It's not semantics on the one hand we have supporting dissident political and media outlets and on the other we have supporting the actual coup plotters.

Where in the statement "We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible" does it say we supported dissident political and media outlets and nothing more?

Trajan. You are making things up. He said we helped them. That could mean anything. By anything, I mean not just supported opposition media.


Duke
 
Kissinger did admit it.

You're out of your mind, he did not, he was saying that we set the conditions which is why the first four words out of his mouth were "we didn't do it."

Why haven't they admitted it publicly, you mean. Well, Pinochet got a lot of bad press.

And the Shah didn't?

People, even Americans, remember Pinochet.

And they don't remember the Shah?

The coup also got lots of attention.

And the coup in Iran hasn't?

The CIA wouldn't want to put itself in their category until they absolutely have to, if ever.

So why have they admitted to aiding the coup plotters in Iran?

You asked this:
"how do you know we didn't want Allende removed through Democratic means?"

I answer with this:

After he was elected but not before he assumed power, there is 0 evidence that shows we attempted to remove him from power through force after being sworn in as President.

Really? Could you point out where in the statrment "We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible" it says we helped create massive opposition against Allende amongst the Chilean public, and nothing more? Couldn't by "We helped them, created the conditions as great as possible", he mean gave the coup plotters tactical information, money, and other support?

No it couldn't or else the first four words out of his mouth wouldn't have been "we didn't do it." That statement must be taken into context of the CIA documents, if they are it is clear what was meant by that statement.

The CIA documents that have been released do not show this. But Kissinger was kind enough to fill in the blanks.

Actually that statement completely concurs with the CIA documents.

Where in the statement "We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible" does it say we supported dissident political and media outlets and nothing more?

That's what he meant by "created the conditions."

Trajan. You are making things up. He said we helped them. That could mean anything. By anything, I mean not just supported opposition media.


Duke

You're the one making things up, the CIA documents show exactly what he meant by "created the conditions."
 
If the Iranians truly follow Islamic tradition and custom they would never invade Mexico because.... Mexico is in the process of invading the USA and according to Muslims "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Thus the very idea is preposterous.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EAGLE1
Those votes were not to kill Iranian democracy, in fact even if they were they didnt say it on the ballot. Therefore a 99.9% is quite possible, especially given the other choice.
Save the insults about brainwashing for someone who cares.

The vote was not to kill Democracy? O.K. then what do you call dissolving Parliament? What if Tony Blair dissolved British Parliament and declared himself dictator?
Parliaments get dissolved and reformed all the time ToT.

Quote:
Really? Is there an independent international judgement willing to back that up? Stabbed the Brits in the back, quite a statement, do you actually know any of the history of the Iranian oil concession? Remember to get the country right before you start reading though.

I know that the British had every right to blockade Iran after their defacto dictator stole their refineries.
Then you dont know much do you? Considering the British had already interfered in Iranian politics numerous times decades before to get the original concession precludes any notions of the British being unfairly treated, read your history ToT. Moreover, Mossadeq even offered compensation and still it wasnt enough.

Quote:
Really says who? Gonna expand on that bland statement? You seem awfully willing to give the last Shah every benefit of the doubt yet none for Mossadeq - bet I can guess why.

Quote:
No what the Shah did was extend his powers over the country without any support, as said. Would you be happy with Bush doing the same?

He didn't dissolve Parliament and he didn't ignore the Egyptian Constitution in order to declare himself dictator

He DID extend his powers over the country without any support and thereby he DID ignore the Iranian constitution, while Mossadeq did not ignore the Egyptian constitution.

It's called the White Revolution and it took away power from the Islamic Fascists which is one of the main reason for the Shah's overthrow.


Quote:
Wow thats wonderful, a peice written by the child of the very man who was installed in place of Mossadeq. What else do you expect? Why not just read the CIAs own report?

Specifically why not just read Kermit Roosevelt's own account in his own book were he describes drinking with his CIA buddies while their bribed Iranians were marching through the streets. Is that the support you're talking about ToT?

Ya umm where in Roosevelt's accord does it mention the popularity levels at the time?

Come on now ToT, tell us more about this great democracy of the Shah's. If you can make a case with the Shah's democrat credentials then it should be quite easy for you to expand on it shouldnt it?

Yes ToT read Kermit’s own account. If you’d read it already you know that Kermit and his buddies had bribed numerous mobs for hire and paid off numerous members of Parliament as part of a campaign of orchestrated black propaganda. That bribed support is the opposition to Mossadeq you speak of when you tell us about how I overestimate Mossadeq’s popularity at the time of his overthrow.
Quote:
Again you show your ignorance. The Shah didnt recruit the CIA and MI6 to the plot, they recruited him to the plot.
Mmmhmm because the Shah didn't want Mossadegh out of power right? It wasn't a collaborative relationship was it?

Really ToT, the Shah had to be persuaded by both Kermit Roosevelt and his sister to take part plus its clear that the US & UK were prepared to go through with the coup even without the Shah.
Quote:
Because you were talking about Egypt. Why wouldnt Mossadeq ignore the Egyptian constitution? There's a big difference between typing Egypt and typing Iran, mixing the two up is surely proof that you lumo these countries together and think very little on the subject at hand but to further your tenuous ideological ends.
Allright I see what you're saying, however, my point still stands the Shah never dissolved Parliament or the IRANIAN Constitution as Mossadegh had done and was doing.
No what the Shah did was much was worse and heralded the regime we see today in Iran who learned to never be so gentle as to repeat the ‘Mossadeq mistake’.
Quote:
'bla bla bla' and 'bottom line' are no answers ToT. What if I simply answered with 'bottom line you support right wing tyrants and the machinations of Western powers intent on securing their oil interests at the expense of every person and every ideal they claim to hold'. Its a general statement, not an answer to points made.
WTF ever dude Mossadegh dissolved Parliament through an obviously rigged referendum and then declared himself defacto dictator in a country prior to him coming to power had the most liberal Constitution in the Middle East.

Yes ToT whatever you say. Really ToT why would anyone believe your interpretation when you seem to have no interest in the previous history and cant even get the name of the country right? If you want to redeem your credibility at least bring some new information to the table or a better interpretation, or perhaps just get the country right for a few more posts.
 
Parliaments get dissolved and reformed all the time ToT.

Yes parliaments get dissolved all the time by fraudulent referendums, after which the PM declares himself dictator, yep happens ALL the time in dictatorships.

Then you dont know much do you? Considering the British had already interfered in Iranian politics numerous times decades before to get the original concession precludes any notions of the British being unfairly treated, read your history ToT. Moreover, Mossadeq even offered compensation and still it wasnt enough.

Who built the refineries? Who owned the refineries? An economic blockade in response to siezing ones assets is a perfectly legitimate response especially when those assets being confiscated severly damages ones own economy.

He DID extend his powers over the country without any support and thereby he DID ignore the Iranian constitution, while Mossadeq did not ignore the Egyptian constitution.

How exactly did he "extend his powers."

Come on now ToT, tell us more about this great democracy of the Shah's. If you can make a case with the Shah's democrat credentials then it should be quite easy for you to expand on it shouldnt it?

It's called the White Revolution, the Shah modernized Iran and instituted equal suffrage to all the Iranian people.

Yes ToT read Kermit’s own account. If you’d read it already you know that Kermit and his buddies had bribed numerous mobs for hire and paid off numerous members of Parliament as part of a campaign of orchestrated black propaganda. That bribed support is the opposition to Mossadeq you speak of when you tell us about how I overestimate Mossadeq’s popularity at the time of his overthrow.

So your saying that in a country whose economy was going to hell in a hand basket due to Mossadeqs economic policies and one in which congress had been dissolved and a dictator put in their place, that there was no legitimate opposition to Mossadeq?


plus its clear that the US & UK were prepared to go through with the coup even without the Shah.

Why is that clear?


No what the Shah did was much was worse and heralded the regime we see today in Iran who learned to never be so gentle as to repeat the ‘Mossadeq mistake’.

Mossadeq's mistake was declaring himself dictator and stealing foreign assets.


Yes ToT whatever you say. Really ToT why would anyone believe your interpretation when you seem to have no interest in the previous history and cant even get the name of the country right? If you want to redeem your credibility at least bring some new information to the table or a better interpretation, or perhaps just get the country right for a few more posts.

I don't need to bring any new information, your interpretation is crap, you think that dissolving parliament through rigged referendum, and instituting dictatorial powers is all fine and dandy. It's you who has no credibility, like I say leftists have never met an anti-western dictator they didn't like.
 
Quote:
He DID extend his powers over the country without any support and thereby he DID ignore the Iranian constitution, while Mossadeq did not ignore the Egyptian:lol: constitution.

How exactly did he "extend his powers."

In 1950 the Iran's Monarchy Constitution, Mashrouteh, was ruined towards absolute dictatorship by Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi. The 1950 amendment granted the Shah the right to dissolve the parliament at any time and under any circumstances.

Quote:
Then you dont know much do you? Considering the British had already interfered in Iranian politics numerous times decades before to get the original concession precludes any notions of the British being unfairly treated, read your history ToT. Moreover, Mossadeq even offered compensation and still it wasnt enough.

Who built the refineries? Who owned the refineries? An economic blockade in response to siezing ones assets is a perfectly legitimate response especially when those assets being confiscated severly damages ones own economy.

Simple answer to that, who had jurisdiction in the country?

Twice the British tried to argue their case before the international community, once, in May 1951, at The Hague, and again in October, at the United Nations Security Council. Both times, Mossadeq won, hands down. At The Hague, he argued against Britain's complaint that Iran had broken an agreement, saying that since the contract had been signed between a company and Iran, rather than between two states, the court at The Hague had no jurisdiction. In June 1952, the issue was again dealt with at The Hague, and the case was decided in favor of Iran.

Quote:
Come on now ToT, tell us more about this great democracy of the Shah's. If you can make a case with the Shah's democrat credentials then it should be quite easy for you to expand on it shouldnt it?

It's called the White Revolution, the Shah modernized Iran and instituted equal suffrage to all the Iranian people.

There was no legitimate election in the Shah’s regime whatsoever. The members of the parliament used to be hand picked by the Shah not by the people’s vote and the rest was FAKE elections.
The Savak's interrogation office was established with no limit of using horrific torture tools and techniques to break the arrested dissenters to talk in a matter of hours.

The censorship office was established to monitor journalists, literary figures and academics throughout the country. It took appropriate measures against those who fell out of the regime's line.

Universities, labor unions and peasant organizations, amongst others, were all subjected to intense surveillance by the Savak agents and paid informants. The agency was also active abroad, especially in monitoring Iranian students who publicly opposed the Shah's government.

Interrogation, torture and long term imprisonment by Savak for reading or possessing any forbidden books. The prohibited books were removed from the book-stores and libraries; even the Tozih-ol-Masael written by Ayatollah Rouhollah Khomeini was forbidden.

Over the years, Savak became a law unto itself, having legal authority to arrest, detain, brutally interrogate and torture suspected people indefinitely. Savak operated its own prisons in Tehran, such as Qezel-Qalaeh and Evin facilities and many suspected places throughout the country as well. Many of those activities were carried out without any institutional checks.

Is that the democracy you're talking about ToT?

Gotta love those conjobs, theyll justify anything if it suits their own interests.

Quote:
Yes ToT read Kermit’s own account. If you’d read it already you know that Kermit and his buddies had bribed numerous mobs for hire and paid off numerous members of Parliament as part of a campaign of orchestrated black propaganda. That bribed support is the opposition to Mossadeq you speak of when you tell us about how I overestimate Mossadeq’s popularity at the time of his overthrow.

So your saying that in a country whose economy was going to hell in a hand basket due to Mossadeqs economic policies and one in which congress had been dissolved and a dictator put in their place, that there was no legitimate opposition to Mossadeq?

Read the CIAs own report ToT, Im not reminding you what country we're talking about or doing your research for you anymore.

Quote:
plus its clear that the US & UK were prepared to go through with the coup even without the Shah.

Why is that clear?



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No what the Shah did was much was worse and heralded the regime we see today in Iran who learned to never be so gentle as to repeat the ‘Mossadeq mistake’.

Mossadeq's mistake was declaring himself dictator and stealing foreign assets.

No our mistake was interfering in another country and getting blowback years later.

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Yes ToT whatever you say. Really ToT why would anyone believe your interpretation when you seem to have no interest in the previous history and cant even get the name of the country right? If you want to redeem your credibility at least bring some new information to the table or a better interpretation, or perhaps just get the country right for a few more posts.

I don't need to bring any new information, your interpretation is crap, you think that dissolving parliament through rigged referendum, and instituting dictatorial powers is all fine and dandy. It's you who has no credibility, like I say leftists have never met an anti-western dictator they didn't like.

Simple answer here. Two questions.
First I'll make it an easier multiple choice. What country are we talking about ToT?
A: Egypt
or
B: Iran

Next question;
What was the Shah's record on rigged elections and referendums ToT after 1953?
 
In 1950 the Iran's Monarchy Constitution, Mashrouteh, was ruined towards absolute dictatorship by Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi. The 1950 amendment granted the Shah the right to dissolve the parliament at any time and under any circumstances.

But that was before Mossadeq was deposed.

Simple answer to that, who had jurisdiction in the country?

Twice the British tried to argue their case before the international community, once, in May 1951, at The Hague, and again in October, at the United Nations Security Council. Both times, Mossadeq won, hands down. At The Hague, he argued against Britain's complaint that Iran had broken an agreement, saying that since the contract had been signed between a company and Iran, rather than between two states, the court at The Hague had no jurisdiction. In June 1952, the issue was again dealt with at The Hague, and the case was decided in favor of Iran.

So that answers my questions how exactly? I don't care what the Hague says, Mossadeq stole British built assets.

There was no legitimate election in the Shah’s regime whatsoever. The members of the parliament used to be hand picked by the Shah not by the people’s vote and the rest was FAKE elections.

Source?

The Savak's interrogation office was established with no limit of using horrific torture tools and techniques to break the arrested dissenters to talk in a matter of hours.

The SAVAK was far better than the people they were trying to keep from taking power.

The censorship office was established to monitor journalists, literary figures and academics throughout the country. It took appropriate measures against those who fell out of the regime's line.

Ya namely the Islamic Fascists and Communists.

Universities, labor unions and peasant organizations, amongst others, were all subjected to intense surveillance by the Savak agents and paid informants. The agency was also active abroad, especially in monitoring Iranian students who publicly opposed the Shah's government.

Interrogation, torture and long term imprisonment by Savak for reading or possessing any forbidden books. The prohibited books were removed from the book-stores and libraries; even the Tozih-ol-Masael written by Ayatollah Rouhollah Khomeini was forbidden.

And that's a bad thing? You do know who Khomeini is right?

Over the years, Savak became a law unto itself, having legal authority to arrest, detain, brutally interrogate and torture suspected people indefinitely. Savak operated its own prisons in Tehran, such as Qezel-Qalaeh and Evin facilities and many suspected places throughout the country as well. Many of those activities were carried out without any institutional checks.

And that's a hell of a lot different than the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. :roll:


Is that the democracy you're talking about ToT?

Better than what came after it.

Read the CIAs own report ToT, Im not reminding you what country we're talking about or doing your research for you anymore.

Well the obvious answer to my question was yes there was massive legitimate opposition to Mossadeq at the time of his overthrow, if there had not been the countercoup would not have been successful.

No our mistake was interfering in another country and getting blowback years later.

Ya because Mossadeq's policies didn't interfere with economy of the U.K. did it?

Simple answer here. Two questions.
First I'll make it an easier multiple choice. What country are we talking about ToT?
A: Egypt
or
B: Iran

Next question;
What was the Shah's record on rigged elections and referendums ToT after 1953?

I'm fairly sure that elections below the executive level were conducted legitimately.
 
You're out of your mind, he did not, he was saying that we set the conditions which is why the first four words out of his mouth were "we didn't do it."

How many times am I going to have to say this? We didn't do it. We did not do the coup. We helped. He admitted to helping. Do you have any way of contradicting that statement, or are you going to just sit around and blow smoke? Because that's proof that you were wrong. We helped them.



And the Shah didn't?

Not as much, no. Are you asking me why the CIA releases some files and keeps others secret? The CIA is not a transparent organization. I can't see through concrete. For all you know, they haven't released the rest of the Chile files because they can't find them. But there are still documents about Chile unreleased. That's a fact.



After he was elected but not before he assumed power, there is 0 evidence that shows we attempted to remove him from power through force after being sworn in as President.

Sure, but Kissinger tells us we helped those who did to remove him from power.


No it couldn't or else the first four words out of his mouth wouldn't have been "we didn't do it." That statement must be taken into context of the CIA documents, if they are it is clear what was meant by that statement.

The only way your argument works is if you take the words "We didn't do it" out of context and mangle their meaning. No, we did not do, or orchestrate the coup. We helped. We supported. We assisted.

Why were we worrying about our hand showing if we weren't playing the card game, Trajan? Answer the question, stop avoiding it. I want to hear your misinterpretation of this, too.




That's what he meant by "created the conditions."

Sure. We gave them money, we gave them intelligence, we made Chileans think they wanted a coup, we stifled opposition, we assisted the coup plotters, we helped the coup plotters, we supported the coup plotters.


You're the one making things up, the CIA documents show exactly what he meant by "created the conditions."

The documents released as of now do not deal with our direct involvement in the coup. Kissinger is talking about direct involvement, he is saying that the U.S. helped them. They are two completely different things, on two different topics.


Duke
 
I believe we'd defend our Mexican friends, wipe out the Iranians, and Billo would complain about that as well. :cool:
 
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