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Was Our Revolution More In Line With Liberals OR Conservatives?

noonereal

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it is also focused primarily on personal autonomy and freedom from government intrusion as opposed to protections for historically disadvantaged classes which could be described as conservative in a modern sense.
At that time it was very progressive thought.
No two ways about it, the forefathers were liberals.
In fact, it's kind of a silly thread as the answer is so obvious.
 

swing_voter

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Sticking with the king would've been the conservative thing to do.
 

CaughtInThe

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As long as you are not pretending it's something other than it is, two sides of the same corrupt coin
exactly. when George Washington and Nelson Mandela took over it was only about $$$$$.
 

nvflash

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So if that is your issue, what is your solution?
The only thing that will solve it are people coming to the realization that is what is going on, but I don't expect that to happen before we go broke.

Too much party above country.
 

jnug

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The only thing that will solve it are people coming to the realization that is what is going on, but I don't expect that to happen before we go broke.

Too much party above country.
I think you might want to revise that view in light of how many voters support Biden's proposals including Infrastructure and the federal Covid response and the GOP's obvious bid to suppress the vote using tropes from a century ago, like "we need better voters not more voters".

Its the blood thirsty, power mad Hierarchy of the GOP that is the problem. It has gotten so bad that they have adopted the worst aspects of Donnie Rotten's "fleece the base" campaign and made it their own. It has gotten so bad that everybody but the racially biased, white supremacists and Insurrectionists have abandoned them.
 

nvflash

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I think you might want to revise that view in light of how many voters support Biden's proposals including Infrastructure and the federal Covid response and the GOP's obvious bid to suppress the vote using tropes from a century ago, like "we need better voters not more voters".

Its the blood thirsty, power mad Hierarchy of the GOP that is the problem. It has gotten so bad that they have adopted the worst aspects of Donnie Rotten's "fleece the base" campaign and made it their own. It has gotten so bad that everybody but the racially biased, white supremacists and Insurrectionists have abandoned them.
Sure sure, as every President since Reagan has at least doubled the debt, if they served 8 years.

Meanwhile, the middle class have been gutted of income and wealth to the point that neither party needs to serve them with more than platitudes or demagoguery, because they don't pay the bills anymore. The uber rich do, because they are the one's that end up with all the money the government hands out.
 

d0gbreath

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There has never been a conservative revolution anywhere in the world. It doesn't work that way.
 

Tigerace117

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It was only AFTER the REVOLUTION was WON could they form any Gov they wished

Point is, that 10 Yr period they only wanted reconciliation (CONSERVATIVE)

So, we would still be ENGLISHMEN if it wasn't for the arrogance of King George and company;)
Um....no, they gave up on reconciliation pretty quickly once the shooting started and it became clear that the conservatives in England had absolutely no intention of giving them what they wanted.
 

Cope

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They have a lot in common. Let's take gay marriage for instance. Both classical and modern liberals would argue individuals have a right to enter contracts and find their own fulfillment in life without having the government step in and stop them. Modern conservatives want to use the government as a weapon to restrict individual liberty and enforce their version of morality.

Another example, marijuana legalization. Conservatives want to use government violence to control people's bodies and overrule their liberties.
Now apply that to ALL governmental regulation and you will likely be led down a completely different path.

The point being, the government is more likely to be used by the liberal side of things or both as equally wholly dependent on the ox in question.
 

Deuce

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A classic liberal would argue that having to ask the rotten government for permission to marry is a blatant violation of personal liberty, whereas modern liberals want government licenses for everything, including for a little girl running a lemonade stand.
You don't have to ask the government for permission to marry.

Modern liberals do not support the right to contract or freedom of association. For example, they believe in forcing bigots to do business with people they despise,
The freedom of citizens to shop without being oppressed by bigots, yes.

A corporation is not a person and there's no reason it should have rights.

and forcing firms to "negotiate" with labor cartels.
This is liberals defending the right of workers to associate. You oppose their freedom of association, that's curious.

True, but modern conservatives are not classic liberals. They typically (but not always) believe in drug laws, censorship of porn, marriage laws, etc.
The entire right wing claims to be the party of "small government" and we see over and over and over again that this is not true. Modern conservatives are fascists. Ultra authoritarian.

You voted for Trump, an authoritarian, didn't you?
 

aociswundumho

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You don't have to ask the government for permission to marry.
Yes, you do:

While it may not be the romantic or glamorous part of planning a wedding, getting a marriage license is required in all 50 states.

Up until the Progressive era you didn't need a license to get married. Marriage licenses were a Progressive "reform" to prevent intermarriage between whites and blacks.

The freedom of citizens to shop without being oppressed by bigots, yes.
There is no "freedom" to force people into contracts that they do not wish to enter into. When you buy something at a shop, you are entering into a contract: you will give money to the store owner, and in return, he will give you the thing you paid for.

This is liberals defending the right of workers to associate. You oppose their freedom of association, that's curious.
There's no "right" to form a labor cartel and force a business to "negotiate" with you. I must put the word negotiate in quotes, because it isn't a negotiation if one party is being coerced.
 

Jay59

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I know what so-called Conservatives are saying. They are not Conservatives other than in their continuation of the Racial bias and White Supremacy that has its founding in the beginnings of the Contemporary Conservative movement with Bill Buckley. Other than that, they have abandoned Conservatism in favor of Populism and is not even contemporary Popularism in its current configuration. Its Popularism from over a century ago.
The term is not popularism, it's Woke. A century ago it was Women's Suffrage, which was very different. You're right about Woke abandoning the Constitution, but suffrage sought to amend the Constitution, not to evade it.

"Preserve the Central Authority". That is Conservative? That has NEVER been the Contemporary Conservative position.
I didn't say it was. It was the Tory or Crown position back then and it's the Democrat's position today.

The Conservative Position has always been States Rights, in opposition to the Central Authority.
Not correct but not offensively wrong.

They are trying that one again but only as a rational for more Voter Suppression.
It isn't suppression to ensure a fair vote. Never has been.

They will abandon that as fast as readopting it if and when it suits them.
Biased much?

Interesting that regardless of what the media talking heads blather on about, when you hear from the actual State Representatives supporting this new wave of voter suppression, they tell you EXACTLY what they are after.
Sure. It's obvious that they want to ensure one person is one vote. Anyone who looks closely will see it.

[/QUOTE]They are back to the "better voters not more voters" tropes of a century ago.....care to ask them who they think the "better voters" are?[/QUOTE]
Over 18 and citizen.

So if that is your issue, what is your solution?
No one has ever found a solution.

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
Churchill
 

Deuce

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Yes, you do:
Anyone can hold a marriage ceremony. You can have one with your dog, right now. Nobody is going to stop you.


Up until the Progressive era you didn't need a license to get married. Marriage licenses were a Progressive "reform" to prevent intermarriage between whites and blacks.
Laughable. That was, literally by definition, a regressive change.



There is no "freedom" to force people into contracts that they do not wish to enter into. When you buy something at a shop, you are entering into a contract: you will give money to the store owner, and in return, he will give you the thing you paid for.
There is no "freedom" to oppress people based on the color of their skin.

I do not recognize the right of your business to kick people out for being black. Cry all you want about losing that "freedom," I don't care. Society does not care. Just some sad fanatics on the internet whining that they're forced to serve black people.


There's no "right" to form a labor cartel and force a business to "negotiate" with you. I must put the word negotiate in quotes, because it isn't a negotiation if one party is being coerced.
So businesses have the right of association but workers do not. Sounds like a conservative to me.

Workers are coerced every day and you don't say shit. Even with labor unions, the power dynamic leans heavily in favor of capital, not labor. It's utterly ludicrous that you try and pretend like the opposite of true, but then again that's Fascism 101. Up is down, black is white, ignorance is strength.
 

jnug

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The term is not popularism, it's Woke. A century ago it was Women's Suffrage, which was very different. You're right about Woke abandoning the Constitution, but suffrage sought to amend the Constitution, not to evade it.


I didn't say it was. It was the Tory or Crown position back then and it's the Democrat's position today.


Not correct but not offensively wrong.


It isn't suppression to ensure a fair vote. Never has been.


Biased much?


Sure. It's obvious that they want to ensure one person is one vote. Anyone who looks closely will see it.
"It isn't suppression to ensure a fair vote. Never has been."
State Repukes are not trying to ensure a fair vote. They are in some cases not even claiming that they are. "How does supporting the idea of "better voters over more voters" relate in any way shape or form ensuring a fair vote.

"Biased much"
Not biased as much as observant and for your information, we are all biased politically to some degree whether we want to admit it or not.

"Sure. It's obvious that they want to ensure one person is one vote. Anyone who looks closely will see it."
Run that smack by your secret handshake meeting of the Sons of the Confederacy. It won't get much play here with anybody but the likeminded. They are clearly trying to suppress the vote of certain citizens and frankly they are no longer making any bones about it.

"I didn't say it was. It was the Tory or Crown position back then and it's the Democrat's position today."
This one is flat ridiculous which is why I saved it for last. There is no working context for the Revolution and the beginning of the country at the end of the 18th Century and today.
First, Contemporary Conservatism is the invention of Bill Buckley with all the racist, white supremacist trimmings. So you can't really even go farther back than Buckley and the National Review for a reference point......some 200 years after the Revolution and our founding documents.
Second, The colonials wanted to throw off the shackles of the King. Donnie is the closest thing to a pseudo-Monarch we have seen in the WH EVER.
 
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narrowroad

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there needs to be a revolution bc things are out of control... the baby killing, election steal thugs are at the helm and We the People do NOT want them there..

We do not have any power to get them out save prayer... But again, God does not control the world. He has given us free will and we schmucks do whatever comes into our mind rather than obey our Creator... We don't know how to obey Him except through the helps He has given: the Church and the Scriptures supported by said Church..

problem is: few listen to the Church anymore... very, very sad.. disturbing..

btw kinda weird that a non-Catholic president was FAR more Catholic than the lying, fake Catholic Cornpop

stranger than fiction
 

Grand Mal

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The revolution was fomented by liberals. The conservatives booked it to Nova Scotia. When they got to Canada they were called United Empire Loyalists and the Conservative Party in Canada are still called Tories.
 

jnug

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there needs to be a revolution bc things are out of control... the baby killing, election steal thugs are at the helm and We the People do NOT want them there..

We do not have any power to get them out save prayer... But again, God does not control the world. He has given us free will and we schmucks do whatever comes into our mind rather than obey our Creator... We don't know how to obey Him except through the helps He has given: the Church and the Scriptures supported by said Church..

problem is: few listen to the Church anymore... very, very sad.. disturbing..

btw kinda weird that a non-Catholic president was FAR more Catholic than the lying, fake Catholic Cornpop

stranger than fiction
Thank you. Now we no longer need to ponder what "Very Conservative" means in 2021. Its means "Insurrectionist". Thank you for that.
 

Lisa

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The conservatives supported the British crown and fled to Canada where the king still ruled. The framers were radicals who separated both the government and the church from the lives of the people and granted 10 inalienable rights, which was unknown at the time. The Declaration was a literary F' You and a declaration of divorce to King George. The US Constitution in 1790 was an absolutely radical document and an experiment in self rule.
 

Lord Zerg

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I'd say conservative. But really they were very similar to Libertarians. They believed in no standing army, and almost no federal spending. They were isolationist and believed we wouldn't be involved in any foreign conflicts. Most of the government were in the states who had a lot more power back then.
 

Variant

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And so were the patriots until Jul 4, 1776

What happen just before?

Shot heard around the world?

Battle of Bunker hill
Warfare makes for fewer fence sitters and status quo hopers.

Still we never won over all the loyalists, some left during and after the revolution, or never agreed with it.

More revolutionaries would have been gained as the King made war on the colonists, and more still when the revolutionaries gained momentum near the end of the war.

Plenty would have simply kept their head down and waited for things to blow over.

In the USA mainline Modern liberals and conservatives are on the same side in the revolution though as they are both examples of believers in "liberal democracy".

Liberal Democracy:
.
 
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Variant

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There has never been a conservative revolution anywhere in the world. It doesn't work that way.
Not "conservative" but Right wing revolutions do happen. Usually right wing populism.

Think Fancoist Spain, Mussolini and Hitler, or Pinochet.
 

Jay59

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"It isn't suppression to ensure a fair vote. Never has been."
State Repukes are not trying to ensure a fair vote. They are in some cases not even claiming that they are. "How does supporting the idea of "better voters over more voters" relate in any way shape or form ensuring a fair vote.
Except that is exactly what they are doing.

It's about legal voters, not better voters. It's about ensuring voters are not voting more than once. Unless you think Democrats can only win by cheating, you should be in favor.

"Biased much"
Not biased as much as observant and for your information, we are all biased politically to some degree whether we want to admit it or not.
So, biased all the way over.

"Sure. It's obvious that they want to ensure one person is one vote. Anyone who looks closely will see it."
Run that smack by your secret handshake meeting of the Sons of the Confederacy. It won't get much play here with anybody but the likeminded. They are clearly trying to suppress the vote of certain citizens and frankly they are no longer making any bones about it.
I prefer facts in the open to secrecy. Here's a plan--read the law.

"I didn't say it was. It was the Tory or Crown position back then and it's the Democrat's position today."
This one is flat ridiculous which is why I saved it for last. There is no working context for the Revolution and the beginning of the country at the end of the 18th Century and today.
That's narrow minded. People are still people.

First, Contemporary Conservatism is the invention of Bill Buckley with all the racist, white supremacist trimmings. So you can't really even go farther back than Buckley and the National Review for a reference point......some 200 years after the Revolution and our founding documents. Second, The colonials wanted to throw off the shackles of the King. Donnie is the closest thing to a pseudo-Monarch we have seen in the WH EVER.
Racist like Joe Biden?

Buckley did not invent conservatism. Though he was an apologist for the movement, it predated him. Conservatives helped Johnson pass the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act over Democratic opposition. In the day, Democrats were the white supremacists.

Trump did not have a tame media and law enforcement to use as storm troopers. That was Obama. They are still beholden to the Democrats. Ask yourself, why hasn't Hunter Biden been arrested?
 
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Nickyjo

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A classic liberal would argue that having to ask the rotten government for permission to marry is a blatant violation of personal liberty, whereas modern liberals want government licenses for everything, including for a little girl running a lemonade stand.

Modern liberals do not support the right to contract or freedom of association. For example, they believe in forcing bigots to do business with people they despise, and forcing firms to "negotiate" with labor cartels.

True, but modern conservatives are not classic liberals. They typically (but not always) believe in drug laws, censorship of porn, marriage laws, etc.
Love the phrase, "forcing firms to negotiate with labor cartels." Ah yes, things were so much better when the sign at the plant said, "If you don't show up Sunday, don't show up Monday," when kids worked in mines, when women's bodies rained down on the streets during the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, and when farmworkers had pesticides sprayed on them from crop dusters while they worked.

Bad NLRB. Bad labor cartels. Why would we ever name anything after FDR or Cesar Chavez?

And of course, denying service to blacks preserves our sacred freedom of association. I'm all for such things, so long as firefighters and cops can in turn refuse to answer calls from such businesses, and people denied service can throw bricks through windows.

By the way, classic Libertarian philosophy as I read it some years ago, supported the rights of labor and management to negotiate, opposed things like right-to-work laws as putting limits on contracts.
 

nvflash

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Plenty would have simply kept their head down and waited for things to blow over.
That's what most did, in fact.

It doesn't take a majority to prevail..but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.

We see this over and over again, some minority interest gets propelled forward, and they stick to it long enough, until most people just accept that that's how things are going to be.

It's just easier to work around the things you don't agree with than it is to fight them, most people want easy, they want comfort, and even if what a tireless minority wants makes them uncomfortable it's still just easier to give them what they want and work around it, if you can.
 

aociswundumho

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Love the phrase, "forcing firms to negotiate with labor cartels."
Well ... unions are, in fact, labor cartels, and companies are forced, by law, to "negotiate" with them.

Bad NLRB. Bad labor cartels. Why would we ever name anything after FDR or Cesar Chavez?
Because progressive hero FDR committed the worst civil rights violation in US history (aside from slavery).

And of course, denying service to blacks preserves our sacred freedom of association.
More precisely, not being forced to do business with anyone for any reason help to preserve freedom of association.

Have you noticed that your entire despicable ideology of progressivism is based on force and violence?

I'm all for such things, so long as firefighters and cops can in turn refuse to answer calls from such businesses, and people denied service can throw bricks through windows.
Again with the violence. Just because someone doesn't want to do business with you doesn't mean you may destroy his property. This is something an 8 year old would understand, so why can't you?

By the way, classic Libertarian philosophy as I read it some years ago, supported the rights of labor and management to negotiate, opposed things like right-to-work laws as putting limits on contracts.
There's nothing wrong with labor and management negotiating, but if one party wants out, then that's the end of it.
 
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