• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Was Our Revolution More In Line With Liberals OR Conservatives?

The Trump cult kept squealing that America needed to “be made great again”, so clearly there was so point in which they thought everything was hunky dory.

So in other words not any period in which the far right had any influence. Got it.


you read far too much into what was merely a good campaign slogan.

it was the media lies that told you to believe it was the worst thing since nazism
 
"Biden is like King George and I'm a Founding Father!"

Please spare us.
 
This is actually a very good question and the answer can be very complicated.

I am writing this is a liberal, but I have heard many historians say that the American revolutionaries probably thought of themselves more as conservatives than liberals, and in a way I agree with that. They thought of themselves as Englishman who were trying to conserve their rights as English citizens. They believed this included the right to have equal representation as any other British citizen in Parliament. King George was not letting them have this. So they were fighting to “conserve” this right.

There is much to be said about this position regarding the American revolutionaries.

But what is different between them and modern self-proclaimed conservatives is how modern conservatives seem to be wanting to conserve something even earlier. The rights and privileges that the American revolutionaries were trying to preserve were products of the European enlightenment and the revolutionary reforms and changes that came after the English Civil War in the 1600s. This included things like freedom of religion and separation of church and state. These were considered revolutionary and progressive ideas in England at the time. The American revolutionaries, coming over 100 years later, were trying to conserve these new ideas- but these ideas were quite new, revolutionary, and progressive for their own time.

Modern American conservatives, on the other hand, are more akin to the Puritans, rejecting such ideas as the separation of church and state, or the emphasis on democracy and rationality that had been the bedrock of the American Constitution.

So although the American revolutionaries probably thought of themselves as conservatives, they would have found the mindset and ideas of modern-day conservatives as backward, unenlightened, repulsive, and obsolete.
 
And so were the patriots until Jul 4, 1776

What happen just before?

Shot heard around the world?

Battle of Bunker hill


You've been snorting that white acid powder from your battery terminals again, haven't you.
 
you read far too much into what was merely a good campaign slogan.

it was the media lies that told you to believe it was the worst thing since nazism

“Make America great again” implies that America stopped being great.

It’s not the media’s fault the Trump cult tripled and quadrupled down on stupidity
 
What say you?
Which one? The American Revolution? Or the attempted Sedition of 1/6?

lol

The Founding Fathers were more aligned with classical liberalism, which more closely resembles libertarianism than modern US liberalism. The modern US conservatism would have us kissing King George's ass.
 
you read far too much into what was merely a good campaign slogan.

it was the media lies that told you to believe it was the worst thing since nazism

Most Americans might have known and understood that, "Make America Great Again", was just a campaign slogan, but like most of Trump's bizarre claims, his minions have taken his, 'slogan', as if it came from Jesus himself. He found an even better campaign slogan for 2024, "They Stole The Election"...
 
Our founders were hardcore leftists. They were communists before communism existed.
 
Which one? The American Revolution? Or the attempted Sedition of 1/6?

lol

The Founding Fathers were more aligned with classical liberalism, which more closely resembles libertarianism than modern US liberalism. The modern US conservatism would have us kissing King George's ass.


Or the attempted Sedition of 1/6?

Yes, the first in history with Conspired use of flag poles, a thrown Fire Extinguisher and selfies(sigh)

The Founding Fathers were more aligned with classical liberalism

Wrong,,,, They only wanted the same rights as Englishmen
 
You've been snorting that white acid powder from your battery terminals again, haven't you.

Hey Bluesmoke, you have to be closer to snorting something than me with a name like that(LOL)
 
Last edited:
Wrong,,,, They only wanted the same rights as Englishmen

Yes- but that IS classical liberalism- since the word liberal comes from the word “liberty”- they wanted their rights and liberties as free Englishman conserved, and King George was not giving it to them as colonists. Many of these were rights the English had one for themselves about a century earlier, during the English Civil War- a fight between the parliamentarians and monarchists. The parliamentarians had won. Conservatives were the ones fighting to preserve the monarchy and aristocracy.

King George was not giving the new colonists these rights because he did not consider them full Englishmen, and was not granting them full representation in parliament. That’s why one of the slogans of the American revolution was “no taxation without representation” (not “no taxation”- which is the slogan of today’s American conservatives).

Today’s use of the word liberal as coming to mean “favoring more regulations” comes from much later- the early industrial revolution. Early in the industrial revolution, belief in the complete free market was strong, and the rising factories and the factory owners were operating without any regulations.. This was leading to ever increasing monopoly power of a few large corporations, who were generating a lot of wealth, but all of it was staying in the hands of a handful of factory owners, who were becoming more wealthy than entire nations. The ever increasing exploitation and horrible working conditions of factory workers, and the ever increasing disparity of wealth between the workers and the factory owners, was leading to a lot of social instability. There was no real trickle down effect. The expanding and growing exploitation and abuse of of child labor was particularly appalling to many people.

These are the working conditions that led to Karl Marx calling for violent revolution by the workers. These Marxist parties were actually starting to make significant gains in the polls, especially in Europe which were the first countries to have undergone industrialization. Radical violent Marxist leftists were calling for violence and bloodshed. This really began to reach a boiling point by the 1890s in Europe.

So this is where a group of “neoliberals”, wanting to preserve the free market and keep violent leftist Marxists at bay, proposed a few basic and common sense regulations on the free market, such as child labor laws, workplace safety laws, minimum-wage laws, and allowing of worker unionization. The conservatives at the time were those classical liberals fighting to preserve a complete free market and the plutocracy that was developing- more akin to the libertarians of today. But with the passage of these laws and regulatory measures pushed by the neoliberals, things stabilized and the free market was saved. These laws ended up serving as a pressure valve to keep the pot from completely exploding and keeping Marx’s predictions from coming true. So it was really these liberals who saved the free market from violent Marxist communism.

Over time, these “neoliberals” came to be known as just “liberals”, and the conservatives came to mean those who did not believe in any regulation or safety nets on the free market.

Just a short history on how the words we use today came to have the meanings that they do- and why they sound similar to but mean such different things from the way these words were used in the past. One can see how this can create so much confusion nowadays.
 
Last edited:
Yes- but that IS classical liberalism- since the word liberal comes from the word “liberty”- they wanted their rights and liberties as free Englishman conserved, and King George was not giving it to these colonists. Many of these were rights the English had one for themselves about a century earlier, during the English Civil War- a fight between the parliamentarians and monarchists. The parliamentarians had won. Conservatives were the ones fighting to preserve the monarchy and aristocracy. King George was not giving him these rights because he did not consider the colonists full Englishmen, and was not granting them for representation parliament. That’s why one of the slogans of the American revolution was “no taxation without representation” (not “no taxation”- which is the slogan of today’s American conservatives).

Today’s use of the word liberal is coming to favor more regulations comes from the industrial revolution. Early in the industrial revolution, belief in the complete free market was very strong. This was leading to ever increasing monopoly power of a few large corporations, who were generating a lot of wealth, but all of it was staying in the hands of a handful of factory owners, who are becoming more wealthy than entire nations. The ever increasing exploitation and horrible working conditions of factory workers, and the ever increasing disparity of wealth between them and the factory owners, was leading to a lot of social instability. The expanding and growing exploitation and abuse of of child labor was particularly appalling to many people. These are the working conditions that led to Karl Marx calling for violent revolution by the workers. These Marxist parties were actually starting to make significant gains in the polls, especially in Europe which were the first countries to have undergone industrialization. And he’s were radical leftist calling for violence and bloodshed. This really began to reach a boiling point by the 1890s in Europe.

So this is where a group of “neoliberals”, wanting to preserve the free market and keep violent leftist Marxists at bay, proposed a few basic and common sense regulations on the free market, such as child labor laws, workplace safety laws, minimum-wage laws, and allowing of worker unionization. The conservatives at the time were those classical liberals fighting to preserve a complete free market and the plutocracy that was developing- more akin to the libertarians of today. But with the passage of these regulatory measures pushed by the neoliberals, things stabilized and the free market was saved. So it was really Disney liberals liberals who saved the free market from Marxist communism.

Over time, these “neoliberals” came to be known as just liberals, and the conservatives came to mean those who did notbelieve in any regulation or safety nets on the free market.

Are we writing a book or something or copying a book?
 
What say you?

Neither, the ideologies of liberals and conservatives today has no association to even those same terms applied just 40 years ago. Let alone going all the way back to the late 1770s.

Any attempt to bridge that just to score points today is absurdity.
 
Are we writing a book or something or copying a book?

Actually I have a strong interest in the history of how these words came to mean what they do now, and how these meanings have changed over time. I’ve read quite a bit about it. I think the lack of understanding of the history is what leads to a lot of the confusions we have today, and why we seem to keep talking past each other so much- we are using the words to mean very different things.

Maybe I should write a book.😊

If you are really interested in coming to a better understanding of the other side of the argument, rather than just vilifying them and cussing them out, it’s good to know this stuff. It can lead to more productive and fruitful discussions and lead us out of the never-ending logjam that characterizes a lot of modern politics.

But if you’re just interested in a lot of fruitless cussing and name calling and straw-manning of the other side- well then just carry on. Don’t let me interrupt.
 
No and I didn't say it was. I said that neither the far left nor the far Right sees the Founders, our Founding Documents and the very Founding itself in its proper context and as such makes all sorts of assumptions that are simply inaccurate and unfounded (pardon the pun). In addition the entire political landscape is now littered with talking heads and bloggers and all sorts of unqualified whack jobs peddling nonsense based on absurd assumptions about the intentions of the Founders and the actual meaning and even the structure of of this Republic.

The difference is that the far Right has now absorbed most of the Right in total and is entirely willing to burn the Republic to the ground even to the point of fomenting Insurrection and violent overthrow to achieve what is a pretty absurd goal, the acquisition of enough power to declare the United States as dominated by Whiteness to eternity. The Rank and File are willing to swallow THE BIG LIE whole as long as they can continue in fear and ignorance to wipe out what they fear out of ignorance. It's Cultural Nationalism taken to the level of insanity and fueled by fear and ignorance. They are so bad off now that beyond build a wall around the place, they cannot even tell anybody what they would do with the Country if they achieved ultimate power. They have no policies and no platform other than their last political statement of any merit "whatever donnie wants" and "no more immigrants unless they come from Europe". Their recurring mantra is "nothing to see here" as they take the Republic apart brick by brick waving the flag on its flagpole one minute and beating those tasked with defending aspects of the Republic with the business end of the very same flagpole the next.

The country's Socialists do reside on the far Left. However they have not shown an inclination to violent overthrow or Insurrection to this point. They do have policies and platforms and agendas as does the rest of the Democrat Party that does not reside with them on the far Left.

For now, the Democrat Party is the only functioning major political party in the country now that the Republicans have abandoned the field adopting instead celebrity, personality, performance art, whack job CT Qanon, Donald Trump and venom.

Real socialists are members of the socialist party, they are not in the DNC. Dem socialists are not true socialists, they are social democrats in the fashion of FDR. so, when you say 'good luck with that' (a sentiment which I will accept being applied to the far right), but it doesn't really work on the left, given FDR's accomplishments, which have already achieved 'tried and true' status
 
The question was, "Specifically, what do modern liberals have in common with classic liberals?", and the answer of course, is practically nothing.



Ok, left's talk about civil liberties and modern liberals.

1. Modern liberals are, and have always been, hostile to free speech. They want to silence anyone who expresses politically incorrect opinions about Covid, global warming, the innate differences between men and women, the heritability of IQ, and so on and so forth. The so-called civil rights act of 1964 makes it so a real estate agent can't even talk about the most basic aspects of a neighborhood:



Don't bother defending the idea of the rotten government controlling what real estate agents may talk about, because it only confirms your own hostility to free speech.


2. Modern liberals are generally against the right to keep and bear arms, which is necessary for the right to self-defense, and hence an extremely important civil liberty. The ACLU will not defend the second amendment.

3. Finally, the hero of the typical idiot modern liberal is FDR - the man who committed the worst civil rights violation in US history aside from slavery.



No, they don't. Modern liberals despise the idea of economic freedom. Need I remind you that Bernie Sanders, who is a filthy communist, almost won the Democratic nomination?


Drivel, boring right wing platitudes, mud slinging, vacuous claims, and an incompetent rebuttal, overall.

As such, not worthy of debate. Apparently, the fine art of debate is a skill in which you are not well versed, but, what more can one expect from someone whose avatar is 'aociswundumho', eh?
 
Back
Top Bottom