Wait, California has lower middle-class taxes than Texas?

[jpn]

One of the big myths that Republicans like to sell us is that red states necessarily have lower taxes than blue states. The reality of the situation is much murkier

True. Texas has the second most regressive tax system in the US, which means great for the rich, but everyone else pays more.



Compare that to, say, radicalmarxistsocialist California:



Combined income, sales, and property tax liabilities fall like this:



Give me California any time.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Last place I lived in the US was Salt Lake City and West Valley was absolutely infested with California gangs and crime.

To me this is not about taxes but the infection California culture is spreading to every US state west of the Rocky Mountains.

California is routinely rated as the fifth to the seventh largest economy in the world so the US puts up with it. But it is the most uneven demographic I have ever seen.

It's California criminals and gangs that are leaving in droves. They must find conditions more hospitable in other states.

 

[pamak]

Personally, I believe California's low property taxes have contributed to runaway land speculation. In the 1940s, California had high property taxes and low sales tax and income tax. That eventually flipped and they've had problems ever since.

The problem is related to the increased population density. CA today has one of the highest population densities in the US . I do not see lower taxes leading to speculation of any kind in real estate or in other fields. At least nothing of this sort comes from the list of effective property tax rates by state

Property Taxes by State in 2024

Property Taxes by State in 2024

wallethub.com

NY is among the states with the highest effective rate ( in 43th place while TX is 45th) and house prices there are also high.

The idea that increasing taxes for everybody will make things cheaper for everybody by reducing supposedly speculation makes no sense.

 

[pamak]

Red States do have lower taxes than blue States. Even your own data proves it.

Alaska is a red State and has zero State sales or income taxes. The only reason Alaska ranks #21 in property taxes is because a large section of Alaska also does not pay property taxes. So the reality is that Alaska should be somewhere between #10 and #15 in property taxes, for those who actually do pay property taxes.

My property taxes in the Matanuska-Susitna Borough, for example, is more along the lines with Michigan, which ranks #8, taxing at 1.62% of the property value. However, other boroughs in Alaska have lower property taxes. So if you were to exclude the unorganized boroughs in Alaska which do not have any property taxes and you only include the boroughs where property taxes exist, then Alaska falls somewhere in the 1.50% to 1.25% property tax range.

Alaska is one of the most socialist states. What is the amount of dollars that the state sends to its residents from the oil proceeds?

Nearly every Alaskan will get $1,606 oil check

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Gov. Mike Dunleavy's administration announced Friday that nearly every Alaskan will receive $1,606 in this year's oil wealth check and reminded people that it could have...

apnews.com

Gov. Mike Dunleavy’s administration announced Friday that nearly every Alaskan will receive $1,606 in this year’s oil wealth check and reminded people that it could have been much bigger.

The above is from 2019 (pre-covid).

Alaska has too much oil and too few residents, so it cannot be used as an example of typical red or blue state. The only lesson that can come from Alaska's case is that the government is not as much incompetent in managing its wealth and in providing economic assistance as the conservatives assumes it is.

 

[AARguy]

My property taxes in Texas are slightly higher than they were in San Diego, where we lived prior to moving to Texas. This was more than offset by the fact that my two bedroom, one bath hovel in San Diego sold for $750,000. Our new four bedroom, three bath home in Texas cost us $180,000. As a result, although the percentage of the taxes are slightly higher, we pay WAY less in actual dollars.

And as far as services are concerned... here's a sampling. We used "pods" to move. It took six pods. The town in CA charged us over $100 per pod to park them on the street as we loaded up. $100+ PER POD. There was no charge to park them as we unloaded in Texas. I'm diabetic. Our CA town charged us to pick up my used needles. My Texas town does it for free. I had to buy shopping bags for use in my supermarket in CA. The bags are free in TX. The town picks up two extra large piles of trash twice a year. Additional pickups cost $20 each. In CA it cost me more to take it to the dump if I did it myself. There are no costly fees for being a gun owner in Texas like there are in CA. There are no fees or registration at all, in fact. And on 1 September, all legal gun owners will have the right to "Constitutional Carry"... that's open or concealed carry.

 

[Glitch]

Alaska is one of the most socialist states.

That is only because you are an ignorant leftist that has absolutely no comprehension of what is actually happening, as usual.

Since you are clearly completely clueless, I will provide you with one: The PFD stands for "Permanent Fund Dividend." Which means Alaskans are collecting dividends from the investments made by the Permanent Fund. It doesn't get any more capitalistic than that.

 

[Geoist]

The problem is related to the increased population density. CA today has one of the highest population densities in the US . I do not see lower taxes leading to speculation of any kind in real estate or in other fields. At least nothing of this sort comes from the list of effective property tax rates by state

Higher population density means more expensive real estate. With a high LVT, millionaires/billionaires would sell off a lot of their properties and prices for properties/homes would drop.

The idea that increasing taxes for everybody will make things cheaper for everybody by reducing supposedly speculation makes no sense.

Except it would not be increasing taxes for everybody. Most proponents of LVT seek a revenue-neutral solution, lowering taxes in other areas and equally increasing the tax on land value. This hits wealthier taxpayers harder than your average working class/middle class American as they tend to not own much real estate at all, if any.

And why do you say 'supposed speculation' as if to imply speculation doesn't exist?

 

[pamak]

Higher population density means more expensive real estate. With a high LVT, millionaires/billionaires would sell off a lot of their properties and prices for properties/homes would drop.



Except it would not be increasing taxes for everybody. Most proponents of LVT seek a revenue-neutral solution, lowering taxes in other areas and equally increasing the tax on land value. This hits wealthier taxpayers harder than your average working class/middle class American as they tend to not own much real estate at all, if any.

And why do you say 'supposed speculation' as if to imply speculation doesn't exist?

The data are clear and the concept is simple. Higher demand increases prices because buyers can choose the higher bidders. Millionaires will make more money by selling to millionaires and they are more determined to protect their investments by passing local zoning and building regulations which restrict building (supply). And this is not about "blue" or "red" homeowners. It is about self-interest which makes both conservatives and liberals willing to impose regulations that protect the value of their investment. Most want to make profit and also want to preserve their lifestyle and avoid or delay as much as they can rapid urbanization. The idea that people seek a revenue-neutral solution is a fantasy. Here is one example from my area

Palo Alto mulls raising the height limit for new buildings

Palo Alto's 50-foot ceiling for new developments may start showing cracks next week, when the City Council considers new strategies for accommodating growth and addressing its impacts on the community.

www.paloaltoonline.com

For those espousing a philosophy of slow city growth, the 50-foot height limit is a critical measure for preserving the city's aesthetic character and for protecting existing quality of life from the impacts of rapid urbanization. For housing advocates and proponents of more density, the height limit is a needless and arbitrary limitation that handcuffs local architects and exacerbates the city's housing crisis.


Speculation exists but is not a mere product of lowering the taxes. This is a gross simplification of what may happen under certain conditions. You can have speculation even when the houses are affordable to more people. The 2009 bubble was such a case. As I said before I cannot see a correlation in real life between lower taxes and higher housing prices. NY has insanely real estate prices despite its higher taxes.

 

[pamak]

That is only because you are an ignorant leftist that has absolutely no comprehension of what is actually happening, as usual.

Since you are clearly completely clueless, I will provide you with one: The PFD stands for "Permanent Fund Dividend." Which means Alaskans are collecting dividends from the investments made by the Permanent Fund. It doesn't get any more capitalistic than that.

Only the dividend is not coming from decisions made by a private corporation. In short, the STATE invests and makes decisions about the checks you receive. Federal government programs such as Social Security are also based on investments in the market. Very socialist indeed...

 

[Visbek]

I disagree. The tailspin came from the same thing that caused it elsewhere. A frozen credit market reacting to massive built in market fraud.

The economic downturn was caused by double-bubble of credit and real estate markets.

My point is that California government's budget was hit especially hard by that downturn because of Prop 13, which resulted in very low property taxes. Since property taxes are generally stable, this means CA had to rely on less stable sources of revenue.

That's why I linked to a page specifically about the CA fiscal crisis.

 

[Visbek]

True. Texas has the second most regressive tax system in the US, which means great for the rich, but everyone else pays more.

I'll have to check out that report. I'm surprised that CA's tax rates are that flat, though I didn't expect it to be anywhere near as regressive as TX.

 

[longview]

I had this discussion with a coworker from the LA area, many years ago.
We both had entry level homes (3-2-2 ranch ~1600 sq ft),
I paid $60K to be 20 min from work, He paid $180 K to be just over an hour from work.
My property taxes were 3 %, or $1800, his was 1% about the same $1800.
Both places had similar sales taxes, but he also had an income tax.
The salaries were higher in California, but I do not think they were that much higher.

 

[joko104]

One of the big myths that Republicans like to sell us is that red states necessarily have lower taxes than blue states. The reality of the situation is much murkier.

Wait, California Has Lower Middle-Class Taxes Than Texas?

Wait, California Has Lower Middle-Class Taxes Than Texas?

www.bloombergquint.com

Texas has no state income taxes, but it has some of the highest property taxes in the nation.

The idea that Texas is a low-tax haven is only true for big corporations who reap too many of the benefits.

Without lies the Democratic Party has nothing.

The claim of this thread is absurd. Yes, Texas sales tax rate is 1/2 penny higher.

Does Texas have state income tax? NO.
Does California have state income tax? Yes. Up to 12.3%.

My oldest kid just bought a 3-2 house in CA, $490K. Property taxes and insurance are around $1,200 per month.

Add that everything costs vastly more in California, from food to housing, fuel to utilities.

My kid says California exists for the super rich and they want the lower middle class to get out of California so it is only the super rich of Big Tech and poor people who make for cheap, submissive workers and government dependents.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

My property taxes in Texas are slightly higher than they were in San Diego, where we lived prior to moving to Texas. This was more than offset by the fact that my two bedroom, one bath hovel in San Diego sold for $750,000. Our new four bedroom, three bath home in Texas cost us $180,000. As a result, although the percentage of the taxes are slightly higher, we pay WAY less in actual dollars.

And as far as services are concerned... here's a sampling. We used "pods" to move. It took six pods. The town in CA charged us over $100 per pod to park them on the street as we loaded up. $100+ PER POD. There was no charge to park them as we unloaded in Texas. I'm diabetic. Our CA town charged us to pick up my used needles. My Texas town does it for free. I had to buy shopping bags for use in my supermarket in CA. The bags are free in TX. The town picks up two extra large piles of trash twice a year. Additional pickups cost $20 each. In CA it cost me more to take it to the dump if I did it myself. There are no costly fees for being a gun owner in Texas like there are in CA. There are no fees or registration at all, in fact. And on 1 September, all legal gun owners will have the right to "Constitutional Carry"... that's open or concealed carry.

Yes but you now live in Texas, which is a shithole that can’t even keep it’s energy grid online.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

Without lies the Democratic Party has nothing.

The claim of this thread is absurd. Yes, Texas sales tax rate is 1/2 penny higher.

Does Texas have state income tax? NO.
Does California have state income tax? Yes. Up to 12.3%.

My oldest kid just bought a 3-2 house in CA, $490K. Property taxes and insurance are around $1,200 per month.

Add that everything costs vastly more in California, from food to housing, fuel to utilities.

My kid says California exists for the super rich and they want the lower middle class to get out of California so it is only the super rich of Big Tech and poor people who make for cheap, submissive workers and government dependents.

Gee, I wonder why things are more expensive in the part of the country that pays the best and has the deepest and widest talent pool.

I wonder.

 

[mrjurrs]

The economic downturn was caused by double-bubble of credit and real estate markets.

My point is that California government's budget was hit especially hard by that downturn because of Prop 13, which resulted in very low property taxes. Since property taxes are generally stable, this means CA had to rely on less stable sources of revenue.

That's why I linked to a page specifically about the CA fiscal crisis.

Property taxes haven't increased here, and yet our recovery is far outpacing the nations. The result of low property taxes? I don't think so.

 

[longview]

Property taxes haven't increased here, and yet our recovery is far outpacing the nations. The result of low property taxes? I don't think so.

Do the property taxes go up as the assessed value of the home increases?

 

[AARguy]

I'll have to check out that report. I'm surprised that CA's tax rates are that flat, though I didn't expect it to be anywhere near as regressive as TX.

I'm not rich at all. And I pay a LOT less in taxes here in Texas than I did in CA.

 

[AARguy]

Yes but you now live in Texas, which is a shithole that can’t even keep it’s energy grid online.

I've lived in Texas 3 years. The power went out out in Texas ONCE... and it wasn't in MY part of Texas. We were fine. We moved here from CA where the power went out literally all the time. Oh, and we have no mudslides here either. Or massive fires. And we aren't told we can't send our kids to school. We don't have to wear masks. We can go out to eat and shop any time. When you call Texas a "shithole" you clearly prove that you have never been here... probably the spawn of a northern ghetto where folks think Hoboken is the DEEP SOUTH.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

I've lived in Texas 3 years. The power went out out in Texas ONCE... and it wasn't in MY part of Texas. We were fine. We moved here from CA where the power went out literally all the time. Oh, and we have no mudslides here either. Or massive fires. And we aren't told we can't send our kids to school. We don't have to wear masks. We can go out to eat and shop any time. When you call Texas a "shithole" you clearly prove that you have never been here... probably the spawn of a northern ghetto where folks think Hoboken is the DEEP SOUTH.

“literally” = hysterical.

I don’t know what a northern ghetto is but it sounds like you simply move from shithole to shithole.

 

[AARguy]

“literally” = hysterical.

I don’t know what a northern ghetto is but it sounds like you simply move from shithole to shithole.

You don't know what a "northern ghetto" is? Have you ever driven through the South Bronx? Spanish Harlem? Baltimore? Newark? Chicago shooting gallery areas?

 

[NolanVoyd]

Personally, I believe California's low property taxes have contributed to runaway land speculation. In the 1940s, California had high property taxes and low sales tax and income tax. That eventually flipped and they've had problems ever since.

Yeah problems like being the single most prosperous state in the country, the economic and innovative engine of the USA?

Those problems?

How about these......"California has no peers among developed economies for expanding GDP, creating jobs, raising household income, manufacturing growth, investment in innovation, producing clean energy and unprecedented wealth through its stocks and bonds. All of which underlines Governor Gavin Newsom’s announcement last month of the biggest state tax rebate in American history.

By adding 1.3 million people to its non-farm payrolls since April last year — equal to the entire workforce of Nevada — California easily surpassed also-rans Texas and New York. At the same time, California household income increased $164 billion, almost as much as Texas, Florida and Pennsylvania combined, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. No wonder California’s operating budget surplus, fueled by its surging economy and capital gains taxes, swelled to a record $75 billion."

Those problems?

Or maybe stop lying about california.

 

[Geoist]

Yeah problems like being the single most prosperous state in the country, the economic and innovative engine of the USA?

Those problems?

How about these......"California has no peers among developed economies for expanding GDP, creating jobs, raising household income, manufacturing growth, investment in innovation, producing clean energy and unprecedented wealth through its stocks and bonds. All of which underlines Governor Gavin Newsom’s announcement last month of the biggest state tax rebate in American history.

By adding 1.3 million people to its non-farm payrolls since April last year — equal to the entire workforce of Nevada — California easily surpassed also-rans Texas and New York. At the same time, California household income increased $164 billion, almost as much as Texas, Florida and Pennsylvania combined, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. No wonder California’s operating budget surplus, fueled by its surging economy and capital gains taxes, swelled to a record $75 billion."

Those problems?

Or maybe stop lying about california.

Jesus, dude, you can still be a leftist and recognize California has numerous problems as it's being run by neoliberals.

The United States has the greatest GDP in the world. Do you then deny all of the USA's problems?

 

[MrWonka]

Personally, I believe California's low property taxes have contributed to runaway land speculation. In the 1940s, California had high property taxes and low sales tax and income tax. That eventually flipped and they've had problems ever since.

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

Dude, if California was its own country it would have the 6th highest GDP in the world. The only time California has had any serious problems in recent history was when Schwartzenegger was the governor and he was a Republican.
Jerry Brown brought California back from the abyss and Gavin Newsome is going to win this stupid recall bullshit in a landslide.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Jesus, dude, you can still be a leftist and recognize California has numerous problems as it's being run by neoliberals.

The United States has the greatest GDP in the world. Do you then deny all of the USA's problems?

I just presented you with facts.

Read these facts: "..."California has no peers among developed economies for expanding GDP, creating jobs, raising household income, manufacturing growth, investment in innovation, producing clean energy and unprecedented wealth through its stocks and bonds. All of which underlines Governor Gavin Newsom’s announcement last month of the biggest state tax rebate in American history.

By adding 1.3 million people to its non-farm payrolls since April last year — equal to the entire workforce of Nevada — California easily surpassed also-rans Texas and New York. At the same time, California household income increased $164 billion, almost as much as Texas, Florida and Pennsylvania combined, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. No wonder California’s operating budget surplus, fueled by its surging economy and capital gains taxes, swelled to a record $75 billion."

California Defies Doom With No. 1 U.S. Economy

The Golden State has no peers when it comes to expanding GDP, raising household income, investing in innovation and a host of other key metrics.

www.bloomberg.com