[W:#995]Pelosi banned from receiving communion in San Francisco archdiocese over her position on abortion

[Chomsky]

Probably so, but I think that would be more towards the theoretical justification for execution than the more cut and dry position on abortion. That is to say, their exists the potential for a just war, but the chance that any war would be executed justly is vannishingly small.

But then the issue with that extrapolation is that Christianity really isn't about the collective righteousness, it's about the individual righteousness.

Interesting. I never thought of it in those terms, individual vs societal.

But you may have a point, as dignity of the individual is a hallmark of Catholic social teaching.

So while it could be that a Just war is theoretically possible, but practically impossible, it is entirely possible for the indiviual thrust into any war to not only conduct themselves justly, but would be expected to do so.

Another interesting concept.

This discussion has spurned me on to consider doing a bit of research on the Church's teaching on Just War and Conscientious Objection. I feel the need to re-acquaint myself.

 

[Chomsky]

I've not always been or presented myself as a Catholic, but I have always been a person that relies heavily on things making logical sense.

The above has been well apparent in any discussions or debates I've had with you. You're tough to assail, as you argue with logic, and from what I can see - truth as you understand it.

Logic + truth, in capable hands, is a very formidable aggregate!

What keeps me as a Catholic is that the Cathechism has been refined over thousands of years and has a logical foundation where in all parts of the Cathechism work in harmony to a central purpose, something I've only ever found in the old religions.

Yep. Agreed. Along with just an amazing body of literature and documents from the earliest history of Christianity. In addition, Catholicism gives full due to Christianity's Judaic heritage & roots, which is absolutely critical to understand Christian theology and Salvation history itself!

Couple the above, with the Church's intertwinement with Western Civilization, and it becomes a compelling choice for many of us.

 

[Overitall]

Yup. Pelosi is being singled out for cruel and unusual punishment because she is a woman

Nevermind the fact that she's also a Catholic. Did you not hear that the Archbishop was also going after Biden (whom I assume knows what a man is and that he's one).

 

[Lursa]

I'd like to comment on this last statement from your post:

"There are many more tolerant and loving Christian sects, ones that more closely follow God's actual Word"

The first clause in your statement is predicated upon the second clause, and I do not believe you have the ability to make the claim in your second clause, as it's simply not in your mortal providence to know, "God's actual Word". It's fine to state it as opinion, but it is not a valid definable or evidenced claim, besides your assertion.

It's provably accurate. The Catholic Church invented a bunch of crap from whole cloth...I wrote this earlier. There's no popes in the Bible, for instance. And their history of torture, war, violence, coercion, repression, intolerance/hate, avarice, etc etc etc is more evidence.

God's Word is clear in the Bible, it's the overarching message throughout the New Testament. Anything that doesnt break God's Word of compassion, brotherly love, forgiveness, and peace isnt a sin.

All the rest is manufactured or misinterpreted (in some cases possibly with good intent) by fallible men of the times.

 

[Lursa]

Interesting. I never thought of it in those terms, individual vs societal.

But you may have a point, as dignity of the individual is a hallmark of Catholic social teaching.

That's complete bullshit when it comes to women.

And homosexuals. And those of other faiths, see: Spanish Inquisition and centuries of war and torture.

 

[Moon]

I'm sure that Ms. Pelosi is absolutely crushed and will immediately turn her efforts into converting the United States of America into a theocracy run by the Roman Catholic Church.

What a bizarre post.

 

[GummyVitamins]

The Pope, of course. It is interesting that some here argue that the US-based Archbishop has more authority on these matters. To me, it is insubordination when one of them fails to follow the instruction of the Pope.

Which instruction of the Pope is that? He has gone on the record saying that pro-abortion politicians are outside of the Catholic community and cannot take communion. So many liberal media outlets are focused on two parts of the Pope’s statement:

1. Pastors shouldn’t go condemning people based on their abortion stances.
2. He has personally never denied communion to anyone for this reason.

But, the full context is that he says pastors should not condemn individuals because they are pastors even to everyone, including people outside of the community. However, he still labels politicians who support abortion to be “outside of the community” and said people outside of the community should be denied communion. His statement that he never denied communion for this reason was only half of his statement that it was because he wasn’t aware of one who came to him to receive it.

Abortion and the Eucharist: What did the pope just say?

A Pillar Explainer

www.pillarcatholic.com

Francis stressed that his answers were meant to address general principles, and should not be applied to specific politicians in the United States because, he said, he didn’t know the details of individual cases. But, he said, pastoral action does not mean ignoring the problem of abortion, or those Catholics who support it.

“And what should the pastor do? He shouldn’t go around condemning. And he must also be a pastor with those who are excommunicated, and be so with God’s style, which is closeness, compassion and tenderness.”

“Those people who are not in the community cannot take communion, because they are out of the community,” the pope continued. “It is not a punishment: Communion is linked to the community.”

The focus, he said, should not be on labeling individuals as “excommunicated,” but instead considering them to be people “temporarily outside of the community” who remain “children of God and need our pastoral action and they want, and need, our pastoral closeness. Then the pastors work things out by the Spirit of God.”

The pope said that he had not personally denied the Eucharist to a politician supportive of abortion protections, but that he was not aware that any had presented themselves to him for holy communion.

 

[Crunchtime]

Republican Christians​

https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/uvaxjv/republican_christians/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

And this proves what?

 

[redbeer]

Republicans support Trump.
Let that sink in as he's about the furthest away from religious as you can get and he used the bible as a prop for political gain even though he;'s obviously never read it or has any interest in what it says.

TDS noted....tks

 

[Peter]

TDS noted....tks

TDS is such a lazy way to reply.
Yes, I dislike Trump. I dislike many politicians do I have a syndrome about them as well.
I also intensely dislike liquorice, do I have a syndrome about that?

It's childish and pathetic.

 

[redbeer]

TDS is such a lazy way to reply.
Yes, I dislike Trump. I dislike many politicians do I have a syndrome about them as well.
I also intensely dislike liquorice, do I have a syndrome about that?

It's childish and pathetic.

Oh, come on and admit it.....you bought into all the lies and false narratives and now only pride prevents you from being honest. Admitting this is the first step to recovery from TDS.

 

[GummyVitamins]

TDS is such a lazy way to reply.
Yes, I dislike Trump. I dislike many politicians do I have a syndrome about them as well.
I also intensely dislike liquorice, do I have a syndrome about that?

It's childish and pathetic.

The thread is about Pelosi and the Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with Trump. For that reason some would say complaining about Trump support is childish and pathetic.

 

[Chomsky]

It's provably accurate.

Oh, please do prove it!

You know "God's actual Word"???

The Catholic Church invented a bunch of crap from whole cloth...I wrote this earlier. There's no popes in the Bible, for instance. And their history of torture, war, violence, coercion, repression, intolerance/hate, avarice, etc etc etc is more evidence.

God's Word is clear in the Bible,

Which, "Bible"?

This one?

This one?

Or, perhaps this one?

it's the overarching message throughout the New Testament. Anything that doesnt break God's Word of compassion, brotherly love, forgiveness, and peace isnt a sin.

All the rest is manufactured or misinterpreted (in some cases possibly with good intent) by fallible men of the time.

I would think hard about the rabbit hole you're dragging yourself down, when you claim to know "God's actual Word"!

Because you know no more than any of us, besides what you believe.

But if you still want to go for it, no problem - please explain how you know God's actual Word, beyond your belief that you do.

 

[Lursa]

Oh, please do prove it!

The violence and horrors and greed of the Catholic Church? Certainly all other Christian religions pale before its viciousness and coercion. The Spanish Inquisition is a good example. As was the rule of the Borgias. The disgusting justification of raping your wife. Etc. Just a few examples. Other Christian sects had their violence and misogyny too...but never to the same extremes and most of them are advancing morally in step with the rest of society in terms of tolerance and social mores.

You know "God's actual Word"???

I posted it for you. What are you disputing?

Which, "Bible"?

This one?

This one?

Or, perhaps this one?

I would think hard about the rabbit hole you're dragging yourself down, when you claim to know "God's actual Word"!

What are disputing about God's Word that I posted?

Because you know no more than any of us, besides what you believe.

Ok. I dont need to convince you of anything. You appear to be a follower of the Catholic Church and all its repression, intolerance, misogyny, greed, violence. So if you can justify all that in your mind...I can understand why you are loathe to accept 'compassion, brotherly love, forgiveness, and peace.'

You listed a bunch of books and yet the CC invented plenty of its own stuff, like popes, and then had to invent Ex Cathedra when it couldnt control them, and all sorts of rituals and penances, all the while its leadership lives like kings...satin sheets, silk robes, gourmet food and wine, fine art, etc.

But if you still want to go for it, no problem - please explain how you know God's actual Word, beyond your belief that you do.

It posted it for you. It's the overall Message of the New Testament. If you have something specific to dispute, feel free.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Oh, please do prove it!

You know "God's actual Word"???



Which, "Bible"?

This one?

This one?

Or, perhaps this one?

I would think hard about the rabbit hole you're dragging yourself down, when you claim to know "God's actual Word"!

Because you know no more than any of us, besides what you believe.

But if you still want to go for it, no problem - please explain how you know God's actual Word, beyond your belief that you do.

Both the "Qu'ran" and "The Book of Mormon" are reputed to be the "actual word of God" that was "revealed directly" by a specifically authorized "agent of God".

Admittedly Mohamed did not actually write the "Qu'ran" himself, but he dictated it directly to the writers (and the current issues claim to be a 100% accurate transcription of the originally recorded words).

The "Torah" is reputedly the "actual word of God" that was "revealed directly" (identity of messenger unknown) to Moses (with a bit of editorial and explanatory comment added by him) and appended to that is a "historical record" of "non-divine" events.

Mr. Smith, of course, being literate, had no need for "scribes" to record the "actual word of God" that he had received.

That means that, giving credence to the "actual word of God" criterion, the MOST accurate rendition of that "actual word of God" would be _[fill in the blank]_.

 

[Crunchtime]

Both the "Qu'ran" and "The Book of Mormon" are reputed to be the "actual word of God" that was "revealed directly" by a specifically authorized "agent of God".

Admittedly Mohamed did not actually write the "Qu'ran" himself, but he dictated it directly to the writers (and the current issues claim to be a 100% accurate transcription of the originally recorded words).

The "Torah" is reputedly the "actual word of God" that was "revealed directly" (identity of messenger unknown) to Moses (with a bit of editorial and explanatory comment added by him) and appended to that is a "historical record" of "non-divine" events.

Mr. Smith, of course, being literate, had no need for "scribes" to record the "actual word of God" that he had received.

That means that, giving credence to the "actual word of God" criterion, the MOST accurate rendition of that "actual word of God" would be _[fill in the blank]_.

As it pertains to all the things of God faith is required. Faith opens the door to experience. It’s also where the natural/secular mind is exposed. It cannot discern the things of God. There is no argument that can convince the natural mind that God is real, and that He communicates with men, and there is no argument that can convince a person who has had an encounter with God that He isn’t real. The Bible is the Word of God. I know it because of the aforementioned.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

As it pertains to all the things of God faith is required. Faith opens the door to experience. It’s also where the natural/secular mind is exposed. It cannot discern the things of God. There is no argument that can convince the natural mind that God is real, and that He communicates with men, and there is no argument that can convince a person who has had an encounter with God that He isn’t real. The Bible is the Word of God. I know it because of the aforementioned.

"The Bible" (simpliciter) does not purport to be anything other than [1] a compendium of Jewish religious documents, and [2] third party descriptions of the actions of Yeshua bar Yosef bin Nazaret.

"The Church" SAYS that "The Bible" is "the word of God".

 

[Crunchtime]

"The Bible" (simpliciter) does not purport to be anything other than [1] a compendium of Jewish religious documents, and [2] third party descriptions of the actions of Yeshua bar Yosef bin Nazaret.

"The Church" SAYS that "The Bible" is "the word of God".

I guess you didn’t comprehend my comment. I assume when you say “the church” you are speaking about the “universal Catholic Church”. I’m not a part of that. I’m a born again, Spirit filled Christian. I have experienced the Pentecostal baptism in the Holy Ghost. Like I said, the natural man/mind cannot understand that. You have no argument friend. Forget it about all of your pontificating. I’m not listening.

 

[ClaraD]

Yep. What took them so long?

question is why are so many right wing Catholics not denied Communion for supporting the death penalty?

 

[ClaraD]

Well sure, an act of contrition requires actual contrition.

Pelosi is arguably blaspheming which vaults over mortal sin and into the realm of eternal sin. In either case she is out of communion with the Church... just in the latter case it would be permanent.

If a person is questioning the core articles of faith of their religion it's probably time to find a new one. A person arguing " is this really committing a sin?" is the point at which they shoudl come to terms with the fact that they are no longer Catholic...

very few people are going to agree with every belief that their religion or faith has. The main component should not be if you are 100% on board with your Church...it should be if you are 100% on board with God.

 

[ClaraD]

She promotes abortion.

One of many examples.. this one in a speech she gave for NARAL:

“These bans violate the Constitution. They ignore basic morality,” Pelosi said. “They imperil the health and well-being of countless women. And they showcase a radical Republican agenda that will stop at nothing to take away a woman’s right to make her own decisions upon her--about her health, her body, and the timing and size of her family."

This is not the Catholic position, and goes beyond a "right to choose" into "abortion is a useful tool for family planning", which is directly opposite the teachings of the Church.

Her abortion advocacy is blasphemy, she openly advocates in favor of committing sin. Again, at the point where you are going to abortion rallies and speaking at events with abortion advocates extoling the virtures of abortion it's time to consider finding a new church.

she doesn't promote abortion. She has never said she agrees with having an abortion nor has she advocated for a person to have one....there is a difference in believing in each person makes their own choice and advocating for something. A lie is also a sin.

 

[ClaraD]

Matthew 18:6 sums it up.
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

except she isn't causing someone to sin....a person has free will to decide for themselves. If she were providing the abortion, she would be causing and also committing sin herself....thus why Catholic doctors will not provide abortions or contraceptives that bring about an abortion type action.

 

[ClaraD]

Your statement is false. "Lying" is not in and of itself a grave sin. What makes it grave is the intent and intended consequences. As you have described it here, even assuming you are accurate, would be a venial sin in the very same way your statement above would be a venial sin even if you actually knew what you were saying about grave sin was a lie...

one of the 10 commandments is bearing false witness....iow lying.

 

[Lursa]

very few people are going to agree with every belief that their religion or faith has. The main component should not be if you are 100% on board with your Church...it should be if you are 100% on board with God.

Religion isnt a political party...religion is something you submit yourself to, commit too, aspire to fulfill, something you implicitly agree to comply with.

You conform and commit to the religion. That's the idea. Most major religions are not about fulfilling your individual needs, it's about you following the religion and its laws and being fulfilled. Which religions are 'democracies?'

 

[Overitall]

except she isn't causing someone to sin....a person has free will to decide for themselves. If she were providing the abortion, she would be causing and also committing sin herself....thus why Catholic doctors will not provide abortions or contraceptives that bring about an abortion type action.

This ignores how people can be influential. How do you think any politician manages to get elected?