[W:816] A Lesson from Atlas Shrugged

[Fletch]

The only lesson I need from Ayn Rand is that she went on the dole at the end. That brand of libertarianism is bankrupt. It's all about having one's cake and eating it too: its proponents puff them up on how principled they are in declaring love for freedoms and responsibility, but they know that the moment they need to they can dip their hand in the public trough.

She was forced to pay into that system. She was forced to join as are you and I. We arent given an alternative. SS, Medicare/Medicaid are not voluntary programs, participation is mandatory. Roughly 15% of every dollar I have ever earned has been confiscated to fund those programs, so when it comes time for me to cash in, Im cashing in. Thats not hypocrisy, its playing the hand we are dealt and reclaiming what is rightly ours.

 

[cabse5]

The perfect is not attainable in public health. Sometimes we have to accept the numbers that show we are better off with the masks than not having them.

We are better off with the masks but to report that masks save lives or prevent the spread of the virus is incorrect.
You have to ask yourself the motivation of the CDC/WHO as why they emphasize the wearing of masks. My answer: to level the curve of Covid cases which doesn't stop the spread of the virus nor prevent death from virus but preserves hospital resources which the CDC/WHO has mistakenly claimed from the beginning was highly at risk from this pandemic. That hospital resources were highly at risk from the pandemic was a 'bogeyman' created by the CDC/WHO. Social distancing or the act of quarantining everyone, for example, is one reason for the increase in deaths from Covid in the US because the greatest at risk weren't more protected with social distancing and social distancing and its measures are unsustainable and very harmful to American society.

Trump expected epidemiologists to be expert in fighting this pandemic and, instead, Trump got a bunch of chuckleheads.

EDIT: And to report that the high death figure from Covid in the US is an indication of mismanagement of the Covid crisis is correct. The CDC/WHO mismanaged the crisis. Social distancing everyone to fight the virus would be like putting everyone on a diet to make them grow taller.

 

[MTAtech]

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

 

[cabse5]

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

I didn't know Gollum was in Atlas Shrugged.

 

[Fletch]

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

Spoken like a person who has read neither.

 

[haymarket]

We are better off with the masks but to report that masks save lives or prevent the spread of the virus is incorrect.

Where are you getting a statement like that?

 

[haymarket]

We were speaking about Objectivism and Atlas Shrugged not Trump supporters. Try and focus.

Six of one compared to a half-dozen of the other. Both are on the wrong side and responsible for much of the bad in our system.

 

[Fletch]

Six of one compared to a half-dozen of the other. Both are on the wrong side and responsible for much of the bad in our system.

Totally false. All you are doing now is exposing how little you know. But thats the thing about leftists, never are they more arrogant than when discussing things they know nothing about.

 

[code1211]

I'm just under 3 minutes into this Atlas Shrugged II when it occurs to me, of all the "My Body, My Choice" protests that have taken place since the coronavirus hit the U.S. along with all the complaints about people not being able to worship in church or attend funerals or see their loved ones in hospital, why hasn't there been more protested about workers (i.e., jobs) NOT being classified as an "essential"? Seems to me, this was the central thrust of the book - government intervention, right? So, why were there so many arguments on the fringes and very few about people being allowed to return to work?

The whole book was about government intervening in the business of private enterprise and the lives of private citizens. Everyone was so freaked out about being "mandated" to take a protective measure that could save lives, i.e., wearing a mask, they practically ignored government telling you to "stay home because your work isn't crucial enough to sustain a nation". Wasn't that essentially what happened in Atlas Shrugged - government made the rules of intrusion and punished you if you disobeyed? So, why wasn't there this big national revolt? (I know why, but will any Republican be honest enough to say it?)

I was following you until the last sentence.

You seem to be trying to make some sort of point, but failed to do so.

Would you please try again?

 

[cabse5]

Where are you getting a statement like that? <Cabse5:We are better off with the masks but to report that masks save lives or prevent the spread of the virus is incorrect.>

I use deduction. First, masks are worn but the virus still spreads and the death toll continues to rise in places where fascists have mandated mask wearing. Second, the eyes and hands, for example, aren't protected with masks. The eyes, for example, that come into contact with the Covid virus cause a Covid infection. The hands that aren't protected (washed with disinfectant, for example) have a natural tendency of rubbing themselves into the eyes, for example, which cause a Covid infection. Third, social distancing isn't being practiced with mask wearing. Fourth, the Covid virus lasts on an untreated surface for 8 days, I think, (and the mask, for example, isn't a treated surface).

So from my deductions, masks don't prevent the spread of the virus nor save lives. The big question, then, is why does the CDC/WHO recommend the wearing of masks?
My answer is: Because mask wearing helps to level the curve of Covid cases and that is why the CDC/WHO recommends the wearing of masks.

Why does the CDC/WHO recommend the wearing of masks to level the curve? Because hospital resources will be preserved.
This is one thing the chuckleheads from the CDC/WHO will have to convince me of: That hospital resources are in any great danger of being extinguished. Heck the gov't can...has...created new hospital resources. The CDC/WHO thinks hospital resources are so much in great danger of being extinguished that the CDC/WHO has prioritized the saving of hospital resources over the saving of lives. Why do I know that the CDC/WHO has prioritized the saving of hospital resources over the saving of lives? Former nursing home residents that were treated and supposedly cured of Covid were sent back to their nursing homes where other residents of the nursing home died instead of in NYC, for example, where the former nursing home residents could've been placed on hospital ships the gov't provided. The hospital ships weren't used, BTW. The ships were sent away and the former nursing home residents were placed back in their nursing homes where the dying continued. Former Covid-sick nursing home residents were returned to the nursing home so more hospital resources wouldn't be used up (like hospital ships). The outbreak was contained to the nursing home.

I greatly assume the CDC/WHO knew of the risk of an outbreak of Covid at the nursing home yet the CDC/WHO continued anyway. Wouldn't it be shocking if the CDC/WHO didn't know that a Covid outbreak was most likely to occur and also most likely that many nursing home residents would die? But then again, the CDC/WHO didn't know that older people and those with many comorbidities were most at risk from Covid because the CDC/WHO recommended (recommends to this day) the lockdown of everybody.

 

[haymarket]

I use deduction. First, masks are worn but the virus still spreads and the death toll continues to rise in places where fascists have mandated mask wearing. Second, the eyes and hands, for example, aren't protected with masks. The eyes, for example, that come into contact with the Covid virus cause a Covid infection. The hands that aren't protected (washed with disinfectant, for example) have a natural tendency of rubbing themselves into the eyes, for example, which cause a Covid infection. Third, social distancing isn't being practiced with mask wearing. Fourth, the Covid virus lasts on an untreated surface for 8 days, I think, (and the mask, for example, isn't a treated surface).

So from my deductions, masks don't prevent the spread of the virus nor save lives. The big question, then, is why does the CDC/WHO recommend the wearing of masks?
My answer is: Because mask wearing helps to level the curve of Covid cases and that is why the CDC/WHO recommends the wearing of masks.

Why does the CDC/WHO recommend the wearing of masks to level the curve? Because hospital resources will be preserved.
This is one thing the chuckleheads from the CDC/WHO will have to convince me of: That hospital resources are in any great danger of being extinguished. Heck the gov't can...has...created new hospital resources. The CDC/WHO thinks hospital resources are so much in great danger of being extinguished that the CDC/WHO has prioritized the saving of hospital resources over the saving of lives. Why do I know that the CDC/WHO has prioritized the saving of hospital resources over the saving of lives? Former nursing home residents that were treated and supposedly cured of Covid were sent back to their nursing homes where other residents of the nursing home died instead of in NYC, for example, where the former nursing home residents could've been placed on hospital ships the gov't provided. The hospital ships weren't used, BTW. The ships were sent away and the former nursing home residents were placed back in their nursing homes where the dying continued. Former Covid-sick nursing home residents were returned to the nursing home so more hospital resources wouldn't be used up (like hospital ships). The outbreak was contained to the nursing home.

I greatly assume the CDC/WHO knew of the risk of an outbreak of Covid at the nursing home yet the CDC/WHO continued anyway. Wouldn't it be shocking if the CDC/WHO didn't know that a Covid outbreak was most likely to occur and also most likely that many nursing home residents would die? But then again, the CDC/WHO didn't know that older people and those with many comorbidities were most at risk from Covid because the CDC/WHO recommended (recommends to this day) the lockdown of everybody.

You are taking nonsense. Masks may not be 1000% perfect, but they do prevent the spread of covid to a degree as compared to unmasked people.

 

[haymarket]

Totally false. All you are doing now is exposing how little you know. But thats the thing about leftists, never are they more arrogant than when discussing things they know nothing about.

It is a waste of time trying to discuss anything with right wing Trumpkins.

 

[cabse5]

You are taking nonsense. Masks may not be 1000% perfect, but they do prevent the spread of covid to a degree as compared to unmasked people.

Why would anyone think mask wearing prevents the spread of of Covid? It doesn't. The mask doesn't protect the eyes or the hands, for examples.

 

[haymarket]

Why would anyone think mask wearing prevents the spread of of Covid? It doesn't. The mask doesn't protect the eyes or the hands, for examples.

Let me take a wild guess........... maybe because the doctors and scientists say it is our greatest weapon right now.

 

[Fletch]

It is a waste of time trying to discuss anything with right wing Trumpkins.

Yes, because I have actual knowledge on my side and you have nothing. You have never been able to discuss this topic on anything other than the most superficial level. Maybe you can dazzle your friends with that sort of ignorance, but it wont work here.

 

[Fletch]

Why would anyone think mask wearing prevents the spread of of Covid? It doesn't. The mask doesn't protect the eyes or the hands, for examples.

And huge numbers of people dont use them properly. I was watching a womens college volleyball match yesterday. One team wore masks, the other did not. The masked team were constantly adjusting their masks, high fiving, sweating and hugging one another. And on several occasions, when one player went to speak with another, they both pulled down their masks so that they could be heard clearly--thus completely rendering mask wearing useless. I see this same sort of behavior at work all the time. People walk around with their masks on but the moment they approach another person to talk, they drop their masks. It happens all the time

 

[Objective Voice]

I was following you until the last sentence.

You seem to be trying to make some sort of point, but failed to do so.

Would you please try again?

Nope. Figure out the riddle. If you answer correctly, I'll concur. If not, I'll either ask you to try again or give up the guessing game and provide the answer. But you have to try and give the right answer first.

 

[haymarket]

Yes, because I have actual knowledge on my side and you have nothing.

The only thing you have on your side is a deep belief in the new American fascism represented by Trump.

 

[SmartCat]

Myths and misinformation. Only folks that mock education are white reactionaries and staunch evangelicals, the Murray types who whine about ivory tower intellectuals when they cant pass their bullshit by.

You do not prove that by asserting it. If you think only white reactionaries and staunch evangelicals mock education you should work one or two semesters as a substitute teacher at a inner city school,

 

[cabse5]

Let me take a wild guess........... maybe because the doctors and scientists say it is our greatest weapon right now.

The CDC/WHO says it's the greatest weapon at doing what? Let me guess, at levelling the curve (which doesn't stop the spread nor prevent death). Leveling the curve protects hospital resources.

What you should be asking the CDC/WHO is: What evidence is there that this pandemic will extinguish hospital resources and, further, Why are you more concerned with saving hospital resources than saving lives or preventing the spread?

 

[code1211]

Nope. Figure out the riddle. If you answer correctly, I'll concur. If not, I'll either ask you to try again or give up the guessing game and provide the answer. But you have to try and give the right answer first.

I'll accept that your point is not important enough for you to clarify it.

 

[cabse5]

And huge numbers of people dont use them properly. I was watching a womens college volleyball match yesterday. One team wore masks, the other did not. The masked team were constantly adjusting their masks, high fiving, sweating and hugging one another. And on several occasions, when one player went to speak with another, they both pulled down their masks so that they could be heard clearly--thus completely rendering mask wearing useless. I see this same sort of behavior at work all the time. People walk around with their masks on but the moment they approach another person to talk, they drop their masks. It happens all the time

It is true that the mask helps to prevent the Covid-sick from giving the virus to the non-Covid sick but the virus lasts, I think, for 8 days unless the area where the virus resides is disinfected. ..The mask isn't disinfected.

The mask doesn't protect the eyes or hands, for examples. The hands are notoriously famous for rubbing themselves into the eyes. The mask doesn't force someone to socially distance. In fact, folks think they can bunch together just because they're wearing the mask. The mask doesn't wash someone's hands.

I used to have this signature: The mask is not the magic pill. The person that demands the wearing of the mask is a fascist, because among other things, the mask doesn't go far enough in protecting someone from the virus and people are given the false impression that the mask is the magic pill.

 

[haymarket]

The CDC/WHO says it's the greatest weapon at doing what? Let me guess, at levelling the curve (which doesn't stop the spread nor prevent death). Leveling the curve protects hospital resources.

What you should be asking the CDC/WHO is: What evidence is there that this pandemic will extinguish hospital resources and, further, Why are you more concerned with saving hospital resources than saving lives or preventing the spread?

Since you have all the answers on this subject, perhaps you could explain why - in the middle of a pandemic - you can lower the curve without preventing the spread of the disease?

 

[cabse5]

Since you have all the answers on this subject, perhaps you could explain why - in the middle of a pandemic - you can lower the curve without preventing the spread of the disease?

Quarantine those most at risk from Covid. Everyone else can go herd immunity. The disease will spread but no one will be adversely affected unless the quarantine for the elderly and those with comorbidities is broken.

Send all kids to school. Put the teachers and school workers at high risk to Covid in quarantine, for example.

Levelling the curve isn't important if those highest at risk are in quarantine.

 

[haymarket]

Quarantine those most at risk from Covid. Everyone else can go herd immunity.

And are you aware that the death toll would be in the millions if we attempted herd immunity - which would take years?