i recognize that, just as i recognize that you and your posts can be found in other areas of political forum. for a few, not so much. they have a focus about the topics twoard which they post - and what they have to share ALWAYS has a lean in a particular nation's direction. which is what prompts my suspicion about the motivation for their forum activity. hopefully, no one believes russia is the only bad actor in such proliferation of internet propaganda
would not surprise me to learn that some forum members get paid to post by foreign entities
You claimed the quotes of Dayan I referred to were taken out of context but have provided nothing whatsoever to back it thus far. Correct ? You have referred to them as " spam " and " irrelevant " when they are actually highly relevant and have been referred to sparsely. Is it possible to be more wrong in your words above ?
The demographic changes in Palestine wished for by pre state and post state leaders are well documented and as such denial of them is pretty futile.
As I said earlier and it is has been painfully obvious ever since, your posts offer nothing to enable debate and haven't even been accurate assessments of the posts of others as shown above.
I do not know about you, but I do this for my own pleasure and get paid nothing in return.
I don't think it's a good direction for you and oneworld2 to take to accuse your opposition of being paid or sponsored for every time you lose a discussion to reason and logic.
That is pure McCarthyism.
Clearly I don't find the quotations relevant, so why even discuss their context?
I pointed that, sure, but that's beside the point. You can simply deny, it's not relevant, I'm not going after that. (Already had in previous threads if you wish to refer yourself to those)
The quotations spam is irrelevant - your claims are that modern state Israel at present time does certain things for certain reasons.
You have not made a single logical argument to back that claim so far, you seem to prefer to talk about Moshe Dayan, I'm sure you can open a thread for that.
Israel for decades has aggressively been making life miserable for Palestinians, and pushing to take over more and more of their land. One of the ways is bulldozing their homes, sometimes to build illegal settlements for Israeli settlers. They are doing war crimes.
Where will we live? ; Palestinian girl cries as Israel razes her home+Video - Yemen Press
I really think you should focus on trying to create an actual logical argument for your empty claim rather than engage in discussions about whether other posters here who deny your claims are paid for by foreign entities or not.I haven't " accused " anyone of being a " paid sponsor " of anything. That's just yet the latest example of baseless claims that have littered your posts here. And where was the argument " lost " to logic and reason ? There has been an ongoing willingness for demographic changes to the former Palestine by the early zionist movement and the state of Israel leaderships since before the state was even created. That is not even a contentious statement because the evidence for it in both word and actions is overwhelming and if you apply logic and reason to it, compelling.
That you choose to ignore of this in your replies/posts here, whilst making claims you are not prepared to back in them, is not anyone elses problem.
A quote by a leading Israeli in charge of the events that have helped shape Israeli policy towards the Palestinians is " not relevant " to this dicsussion ? How so ? And, you have already claimed the quotes were taken out of context so that problem, you backing the claim made in your posts, again is your own.
The quotations have been used sparingly with the introduction of their being used as " spam " in your posts based on nothing whatsoever wrt any evidence for that claim.
The problem remains and has always been, how does the state of Israel acquire the land without acquiring the people that reside on it. The problem is the same now as it was pre state and any and all means possible have been used, some of which I have cited as evidence. You have provided in your posts nothing to counter it , just a raft of baseless claims you have no intention of trying to back.
I really think you should focus on trying to create an actual logical argument for your empty claim rather than engage in discussions about whether other posters here who deny your claims are paid for by foreign entities or not.
"Have helped shape" is key part of your comment. You'd rather talk about what you claim "have helped shape" the policy you claim is Israel's, instead of bringing proof that the policy exists.
As the situations have changed so the policies have changed. This has been an ongoing consideration since before the state itself was even born. The evidence for it is everyewhere from the agreeing of compulsory transfer pre state to the illegal settler programme that stretches right up until today. No amount of evidence will engender a conversation in your posts, it's just not what your posts are here for imo. They are, imo, to actually fudge/disrupt/derail meaningful debates on the subject as the evidence here already shows once more
I don't think the agreement to have Jews live in the West Bank by the state of Israel is a sufficing reason to believe that Arab citizens are not being granted building permits due to an intention to alter demographics.
So far in this debate the discussion has hinged upon the ability to define IDF and Israeli state behaviour towards the Palestinians they militarily occupy as war crimes. But that level of proof is not necessary for people and nations to institute a boycott.
I agree. Discussing war crimes is simply describing the actions, not required to justify a boycott.
I fully support the tactics of a boycott/divestment but the BDS movement needs to make a decision of the question of Israel otherwise it is just easy meat for criticism by the other side. How hard would it be to make that step and avoid the rightful criticism ? That's just how I see it and it saddens me because I think the tactics are the right ones.
When you fight a war "to the victor goes the spoils". Palestinians, Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians have all fought with Isreal and pretty much lost or at best made a few small gains. Israel is protecting their sovereignty.Israel for decades has aggressively been making life miserable for Palestinians, and pushing to take over more and more of their land. One of the ways is bulldozing their homes, sometimes to build illegal settlements for Israeli settlers. They are doing war crimes.
Where will we live? ; Palestinian girl cries as Israel razes her home+Video - Yemen Press
Do you really study anything that goes on in the Israeli Palestinian conflict?No? Using civilians, for example, as human shields is a war crime as defined in the Geneva Conventions and International Law. Israel has been guilty of this for decades.
Israel: Soldiers’ Punishment for Using Boy as ‘Human Shield’ Inadequate | Human Rights Watch
Customary IHL - Rule 97. Human Shields
War crime - Wikipedia Note; "destroying civilian property" is included as a war crime.
"If I were an Arab leader I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal, we have taken their country. They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" David Ben Gurion, founder of modern Israel.
Americans hear but one side of the conflict; that of Israel, and accept all and any of AIPAC and US pro-Israeli propaganda as incontestable truth.
Why, are you going to educate me? I can't wait.Do you really study anything that goes on in the Israeli Palestinian conflict?
I'm not sure what you mean they need to do. Aren't they pretty clear what they are protesting?
'Eretz Israel' is and always has been the goal; an Arab-free Jewish state. And no amount of excuses will alter that fact, nor Israel's serial law-breaking of international laws and conventions-which they, by signing and accepting the laws and regulations of the United Nations Charter, cynically swore to uphold and abide by!Everyone of your posts has said nothing. Has challenged nothing. Has countered nothing. Has provided no evidence to support your own position and is just, basically, it's just your opinion whilst ignoring the evidence that supports my opinion. The facts are that what I quoted Dayan as saying was the " process " has been supported by both the policies and the results.
People need only look at the early Zionist/pre state conversations to know that the mission is and always has been, how to acquite the land without being lumbered with the people. That's what the evidence supports, that's what the policies have delivered and that's why you haven't seriously challenged any of it in your posts
The problem with the BDS movement is that it's movers and shakers and it's base are made up of people who support a one state solution ( which is the de facto elimination of the state of Israel as a Jewish democratic state ) and people who support the two state solution which , as you know, is two states, one Israeli one Palestinian.
The detractors of the movement , rightly imo, point out that many in the movement seek the destruction of the state of Israel and this leaves the entire movement easy to write off and ridicule. The tactics are right ,imo , but there should, however, be a mission statement in support of the two state solution for it to move from a fringe to the mainstream and thus be more broadly supported.
OK, I agree with you to a point, but it also makes sense for there to be a big umbrella organization for sanctions for people who agree on the issue of treatment of the Palestinians, whatever there views on wanting to end Israel versus a two state solution, which should be a different issue from the sanctions about Palestinians.
I'm not sure a mission statement needs to address the topic of Israel existing, so much as to be limited to the treatment of Palestinians or any other relevant human rights issues.
Okay, so now you are aware of my problem with the BDS movement generally. Most sane people who know anything about this subject will have no problem understanding how the Palestinians are being systematically violated by the state ioof Israel in occupied Palestine but it's the ones that don't understand who need to be incorporated into the umbrella of the BDS and the critics on the Israeli side have this huge target to punch away at that will ,imo , go a long way in keeping the BDS movement stuck in the stasis it currently occupies.
I want the BDS movement to gain traction and grow into a movement so big, that puts so much pressure on Israel, that the tipping point forces the change we all wish to see wrt the vile and systematic HRs violations of the occupied Palestinians. That won't happen ,imo , until the movement itself acknowledges that recognition of the Israeli state on the 67 lines is a fundamental component of that process of gaining enough support to make that transition.
The tactics are spot on but this Achilles Heel wrt the stance on Israel will hamper the movements ability to grow and actually force the application of the likes of sanctions. We are basically on the same side but maybe we have tactical differences of opinion, that's all.
I guess here's how I'd look at it. South Africa would have loved to have changed the subject from 'why Apartheid is bad' to 'they are defending themselves from people who want to destroy their state'. Maybe some anti-apartheid people did want to overthrow the state, the anti-apartheid movement could include them without including their agenda on overthrowing the state.
It did end up overthrowing the government even if that wasn't the goal. It didn't have to. Why not have the boycott movement similarly just keep the agenda on ending wrongdoing to Palestinians and not let Israel make the topic about the people who want to overthrow their state? It's their oldest trick in the book to yell "anti-semitisism!" at anyone who criticizes anything the state does. They shouldn't be allowed to play that game.
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