[W:5]This is a reason to support 'Boycott, Divest Israel': homes bulldozed for illegal settlements

[Fledermaus]

There's no crawfishing just a more accurate assessment imo but I am still okay with the crimes committed by both sides being deemed war crimes.

You missed out the stuff about illegal settlers, settlements and annexations which is highly relevant to what I wrote and the context things should be viewed with

Time to first lie? First sentence. And it's a blatant one.

You have been crying that this is war for years now.

All to excuse Hamas from accusations of terror.

And it has been broke off in your ass so often you are forced to crawfish back on that claim.

 

[Hamish Howl]

And here I am, not giving a **** about either Israel or Palestine.

 

[Apocalypse]

The truth is, and has already be shown here by Evilroddy, that illegal occupiers and settlers are in no legal/moral position to deny the people they are illegally occupying the right to build on their own land.

Those people were not denied permit to build on their own land. They weren't in ownership of the land they asked to build on.

 

[Apocalypse]

And here I am, not giving a **** about either Israel or Palestine.

Nobody asked.

 

[oneworld2]

Those people were not denied permit to build on their own land. They weren't in ownership of the land they asked to build on.

It is well documented that the is a huge disparity between planning permission given to illegal Israeli settlers and the actual Arab residents of the West Bank/East Jerusalem.
And, as occupiers the Israeli govts have no legal recourse to decide any planning permission in the occupied territories. The idea that people might htink they have is absolutely hysterical.

All the settlements are illegal as are all of the settlers that reside in them. That you choose to ignore that and place your flag of justice on planning permission is enlightening

 

[Apocalypse]

It is well documented that the is a huge disparity between planning permission given to illegal Israeli settlers and the actual Arab residents of the West Bank/East Jerusalem.
And, as occupiers the Israeli govts have no legal recourse to decide any planning permission in the occupied territories. The idea that people might htink they have is absolutely hysterical.

All the settlements are illegal as are all of the settlers that reside in them. That you choose to ignore that and place your flag of justice on planning permission is enlightening

There is no logical basis to the claim that the alleged disparity is rooted in something other than the insistence on building without a permit.

 

[oneworld2]

There is no logical basis to the claim that the alleged disparity is rooted in something other than the insistence on building without a permit.

The disparity in building permits falls way short of being just and allegation because it is backed by the evidence, a small sample of which was already supplied here in a post by Evilroddy. It is rooted in a bias against all things Arab/Palestinian and is extremely well documented so to try to deny it is pretty futile imo

 

[Apocalypse]

The disparity in building permits falls way short of being just and allegation because it is backed by the evidence, a small sample of which was already supplied here in a post by Evilroddy. It is rooted in a bias against all things Arab/Palestinian and is extremely well documented so to try to deny it is pretty futile imo

An opinion is not a basis for anything.

 

[oneworld2]

An opinion is not a basis for anything.

Anyone can research the stats themselves and see the disparity. Evilroddy's post gave just a couple of examples of those figures but it is very well documented and the evidence is overwhelming.

It is your own words that are based solely on an opinion seeing as you have yet to provide any data that supports it.

 

[oneworld2]

Time to first lie? First sentence. And it's a blatant one.

You have been crying that this is war for years now.

All to excuse Hamas from accusations of terror.

And it has been broke off in your ass so often you are forced to crawfish back on that claim.

There is no " lie ", there is no crawfishing either.

Accuracy is important even if your posts here appear to hold it in contempt

 

[Apocalypse]

Anyone can research the stats themselves and see the disparity

That too is an opinion.

 

[oneworld2]

That too is an opinion.

As already stated these are opinions based on the stats. Stats you have completely ignored without presenting anything to counter them that wouls actually validate more your own opinion.

Don't forget too that restricted building is only one side of the coin, we can also add to the mix the demolition of homes and that makes an even stronger case for bias.

Why don't you present some stats/figures to back your claim that there isn't a bias regarding planning permission for Arabs and Jews living in East Jerusalem and , more broadly, the West Bank ?

 

[Apocalypse]

As already stated these are opinions based on the stats. Stats you have completely ignored without presenting anything to counter them that wouls actually validate more your own opinion.

Don't forget too that restricted building is only one side of the coin, we can also add to the mix the demolition of homes and that makes an even stronger case for bias.

Why don't you present some stats/figures to back your claim that there isn't a bias regarding planning permission for Arabs and Jews living in East Jerusalem and , more broadly, the West Bank ?

That's not how a logical argument works, he who makes the claim needs to supply proof.

 

[oneworld2]

That's not how a logical argument works, he who makes the claim needs to supply proof.

Some of the proof surrounding preferential building permission for Jewish people over Arab people was provided by Evilroddy in reply 17 of this thread. I don't recall your posts here making any attempt to refute it or providing counter evidence. Thus the claim has been made and substantiated with evidence to support it. Your posts have contained no evidence whatsoever that I recall.

The logical conclusion being that your stated opinions are either not actually based on supporting evidence or you have some kind of overriding compulsion not to provide any.

The ball has been in your court since at least reply 17 and yet here we are 20 odd posts later and your comments seem to be in denial of the evidence/proof already given.

Proof for the additional claim I made about the demolition situation follows

Engineering a Jewish majority by driving out Palestinians.

This has been Israel's policy ever since the occupation began and East Jerusalem annexed. Israel has devised legal excuses to gradually empty East Jer

www.btselem.org

Statistics on demolition of houses built without permits in East Jerusalem

For figures on demolition of houses in the rest of the West Bank click here

www.btselem.org

Palestinian Communities Facing Expulsion

Scores of farming-shepherding communities, home to thousands of Palestinians, dot the landscape of Area C, which comprises some 60% of the West Bank. For decades, the Israeli authorities have been implementing a policy aimed at driving out some of these communities. They have made living...

www.btselem.org

Israel/Occupied Territories: Demolition and dispossession: the destruction of Palestinian homes - Amnesty International

This report investigates the pretexts and implications of the Israeli policy of house demolitions, focussing particularly on the period after the beginning of the peace process in 1993. It describes the problems for Palestinians of getting permits and the related Israeli policies on land...

www.amnesty.org

The next step is for you to provide counter evidence to both the restrictions on Palestinian builing in Evilroddy post as well as evidence to refute the widespread use of home demolitions against Palestinians. As you said, that's how a logical argument is constructed

 

[justabubba]

Here's a suggestion:

1) get a permit before you build

2) don't be so dumb to think that just because everybody else around you is building without it, you'll get away with it.

Illegal constructions tend get torn down, not just in Israel.

This did not occur in Israel
Many structures pre-dated Israel’s present sovereign statehood
Thus, there would be no records on file in a contemporary state for that structure established in an earlier era

 

[justabubba]

Time to first lie? First sentence. And it's a blatant one.

You have been crying that this is war for years now.

All to excuse Hamas from accusations of terror.

And it has been broke off in your ass so often you are forced to crawfish back on that claim.

Time to deflection: first sentence

 

[justabubba]

And here I am, not giving a **** about either Israel or Palestine.

Not unlike ignoring the plight of the Serbs prior to World War I

 

[justabubba]

Those people were not denied permit to build on their own land. They weren't in ownership of the land they asked to build on.

The irony is that neither is the state, which is charging noncompliance, in ownership of the land upon which the structure was built

 

[justabubba]

An opinion is not a basis for anything.

The state of Israel, not being recognized sovereign authority of the territory, then has no authority to assert over the permitting of structures of said territory

 

[oneworld2]

The state of Israel, not being recognized sovereign authority of the territory, then has no authority to assert over the permitting of structures of said territory

Also as an occupying power the state of Israel is compelled to exercise that power in the interests of the inhabitants of the territory under occupation according to the Hague Regulations ( see below )

AS we can also determine from the text below, Israeli state actions have not only ran contrary to that responsibility to look after the interests of the people under occupation they have included official annexations which again are contrary to international laws/conventions to which Israel is a signatory.

Occupation does not vest the occupying power with sovereignty over the occupied territory. The occupant is entrusted with the management of public order and civil life in the territory under control. He must exercise his powers in the interest of the inhabitants of that territory. 19


It follows that occupation is necessarily a temporary occurrence. Were it otherwise, the distinction between occupation – in which the occupant acquires only limited prerogatives – and annexation – in which the annexing State acquires full sovereignty over the annexed territory – would disappear.


It will become apparent from the following description of the actions taken by Israel since 1967 that Israel no longer considers the occupation of Palestine as temporary. This has become clear not only from the increasing number of voices within the Israeli governmental polity who advocate the outright annexation of the West Bank but also from Israel’s actions themselves, such as the construction of settlements protected by a separation barrier and connected to Israel via reserved roads, the appropriation of Palestinian land, of natural resources (including water), and the destruction of Palestinian villages. And with respect to East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, Israel has already crossed the line and officially annexed these areas.

Israel's obligations as an occupying power under international law, its violations and implications for EU policy - European Coordination of Committees and Associations for Palestine

I. WHY ISRAEL IS BOUND BY THE INTERNATIONAL INSTRUMENTS DEFINING THE OBLIGATIONS OF AN OCCUPYING POWER. The main international instruments defining the obligations of an occupying power are : the Regulations Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, annexed to the Fourth Convention...

www.eccpalestine.org

 

[Apocalypse]

The state of Israel, not being recognized sovereign authority of the territory, then has no authority to assert over the permitting of structures of said territory

Recognition by third party states hardly has something to do with anything here.

 

[Apocalypse]

The irony is that neither is the state, which is charging noncompliance, in ownership of the land upon which the structure was built

In Jerusalem it is.

 

[Apocalypse]

Some of the proof surrounding preferential building permission for Jewish people over Arab people was provided by Evilroddy in reply 17 of this thread. I don't recall your posts here making any attempt to refute it or providing counter evidence. Thus the claim has been made and substantiated with evidence to support it. Your posts have contained no evidence whatsoever that I recall.

The logical conclusion being that your stated opinions are either not actually based on supporting evidence or you have some kind of overriding compulsion not to provide any.

The ball has been in your court since at least reply 17 and yet here we are 20 odd posts later and your comments seem to be in denial of the evidence/proof already given.

Proof for the additional claim I made about the demolition situation follows

Engineering a Jewish majority by driving out Palestinians.

This has been Israel's policy ever since the occupation began and East Jerusalem annexed. Israel has devised legal excuses to gradually empty East Jer

www.btselem.org

Statistics on demolition of houses built without permits in East Jerusalem

For figures on demolition of houses in the rest of the West Bank click here

www.btselem.org

Palestinian Communities Facing Expulsion

Scores of farming-shepherding communities, home to thousands of Palestinians, dot the landscape of Area C, which comprises some 60% of the West Bank. For decades, the Israeli authorities have been implementing a policy aimed at driving out some of these communities. They have made living...

www.btselem.org

Israel/Occupied Territories: Demolition and dispossession: the destruction of Palestinian homes - Amnesty International

This report investigates the pretexts and implications of the Israeli policy of house demolitions, focussing particularly on the period after the beginning of the peace process in 1993. It describes the problems for Palestinians of getting permits and the related Israeli policies on land...

www.amnesty.org

The next step is for you to provide counter evidence to both the restrictions on Palestinian builing in Evilroddy post as well as evidence to refute the widespread use of home demolitions against Palestinians. As you said, that's how a logical argument is constructed

There was no denial that the majority of buildings built without a permit are built by Arab residents.
Hence an earlier comment that noted there is no logical basis to claim the disparity is rooted in anything other than that group building without permit more than the other.
At that point the responsibility or 'burden of proof' is on someone who makes a claim that tries and assert the reason he chooses to believe in.

 

[oneworld2]

There was no denial that the majority of buildings built without a permit are built by Arab residents.

Finally, we can at least acknowledge that there is a disparity and a huge disparity in who is and who are not given planning permission on the OPT's including East Jerusalem.

Hence an earlier comment that noted there is no logical basis to claim the disparity is rooted in anything other than that group building without permit more than the other.

Oh please. Here we have a territory under a foreign occupation from a state that is trying to annexe it and settle it with it's own citizens, all completely illegal under international law and they are the ones that have acquired the power to decide who can build there and who can't with the intention of creating demographic changes to that land. The evidence is overwhelming even if the willingness to admit it for PR considerations are lacking.

At that point the responsibility or 'burden of proof' is on someone who makes a claim that tries and assert the reason he chooses to believe in.

The " proof " is everywhere for those who care to look but will never be seen by those who choose not to

The very fact that an occupying power is in control of the building/habitation process of the land it is occupying , seeking to annexe, has no legal basis and is farcical to any remotely objective person. Occupiers are obliged to administer territories they occupy according to the best interests of the people they are occupying, remember. All of the settlers are illegal, remember, and yet the are granted overwhelmingly more building permits than the residents themselves and they shouldn't even be there.

The evidence for the above could use up the entire allowance for this site, so you need to start citing stuff in your posts that actually gives support to your claims to the contrary which as of yet you have refused to do.

 

[Apocalypse]

Finally, we can at least acknowledge that there is a disparity and a huge disparity in who is and who are not given planning permission on the OPT's including East Jerusalem.



Oh please. Here we have a territory under a foreign occupation from a state that is trying to annexe it and settle it with it's own citizens, all completely illegal under international law and they are the ones that have acquired the power to decide who can build there and who can't with the intention of creating demographic changes to that land. The evidence is overwhelming even if the willingness to admit it for PR considerations are lacking.



The " proof " is everywhere for those who care to look but will never be seen by those who choose not to

That's not an argument.

The very fact that an occupying power is in control of the building/habitation process of the land it is occupying , seeking to annexe, has no legal basis and is farcical to any remotely objective person. Occupiers are obliged to administer territories they occupy according to the best interests of the people they are occupying, remember. All of the settlers are illegal, remember, and yet the are granted overwhelmingly more building permits than the residents themselves and they shouldn't even be there.

The evidence for the above could use up the entire allowance for this site, so you need to start citing stuff in your posts that actually gives support to your claims to the contrary which as of yet you have refused to do.

Where is the evidence? You simply continue to point out that there is a disparity between Jews and Arabs in having their building permits granted. Is that your entire point?