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[W:5]This is a reason to support 'Boycott, Divest Israel': homes bulldozed for illegal settlements

oneworld2

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i recognize that, just as i recognize that you and your posts can be found in other areas of political forum. for a few, not so much. they have a focus about the topics twoard which they post - and what they have to share ALWAYS has a lean in a particular nation's direction. which is what prompts my suspicion about the motivation for their forum activity. hopefully, no one believes russia is the only bad actor in such proliferation of internet propaganda

Rightly or wrongly I have tried to extricate myself from complete allegiances to nation/people/ideologies etc etc and it's hard when the indoctrination systems are so strong and pervasive. I think I have travelled some way but obviously it's difficult and we are never truly objective in our views. Every state engages in propaganda, it's the rules lol it's mandatory
 

Apocalypse

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would not surprise me to learn that some forum members get paid to post by foreign entities
I do not know about you, but I do this for my own pleasure and get paid nothing in return.
I don't think it's a good direction for you and oneworld2 to take to accuse your opposition of being paid or sponsored for every time you lose a discussion to reason and logic.
That is pure McCarthyism.
 

Apocalypse

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You claimed the quotes of Dayan I referred to were taken out of context but have provided nothing whatsoever to back it thus far. Correct ? You have referred to them as " spam " and " irrelevant " when they are actually highly relevant and have been referred to sparsely. Is it possible to be more wrong in your words above ?

The demographic changes in Palestine wished for by pre state and post state leaders are well documented and as such denial of them is pretty futile.

As I said earlier and it is has been painfully obvious ever since, your posts offer nothing to enable debate and haven't even been accurate assessments of the posts of others as shown above.
Clearly I don't find the quotations relevant, so why even discuss their context?
I pointed that, sure, but that's beside the point. You can simply deny, it's not relevant, I'm not going after that. (Already had in previous threads if you wish to refer yourself to those)

The quotations spam is irrelevant - your claims are that modern state Israel at present time does certain things for certain reasons.
You have not made a single logical argument to back that claim so far, you seem to prefer to talk about Moshe Dayan, I'm sure you can open a thread for that.
 

oneworld2

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I do not know about you, but I do this for my own pleasure and get paid nothing in return.
I don't think it's a good direction for you and oneworld2 to take to accuse your opposition of being paid or sponsored for every time you lose a discussion to reason and logic.
That is pure McCarthyism.

I haven't " accused " anyone of being a " paid sponsor " of anything. That's just yet the latest example of baseless claims that have littered your posts here. And where was the argument " lost " to logic and reason ? There has been an ongoing willingness for demographic changes to the former Palestine by the early zionist movement and the state of Israel leaderships since before the state was even created. That is not even a contentious statement because the evidence for it in both word and actions is overwhelming and if you apply logic and reason to it, compelling.

That you choose to ignore of this in your replies/posts here, whilst making claims you are not prepared to back in them, is not anyone elses problem.
 

oneworld2

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Clearly I don't find the quotations relevant, so why even discuss their context?
I pointed that, sure, but that's beside the point. You can simply deny, it's not relevant, I'm not going after that. (Already had in previous threads if you wish to refer yourself to those)

The quotations spam is irrelevant - your claims are that modern state Israel at present time does certain things for certain reasons.
You have not made a single logical argument to back that claim so far, you seem to prefer to talk about Moshe Dayan, I'm sure you can open a thread for that.

A quote by a leading Israeli in charge of the events that have helped shape Israeli policy towards the Palestinians is " not relevant " to this dicsussion ? How so ? And, you have already claimed the quotes were taken out of context so that problem, you backing the claim made in your posts, again is your own.

The quotations have been used sparingly with the introduction of their being used as " spam " in your posts based on nothing whatsoever wrt any evidence for that claim.

The problem remains and has always been, how does the state of Israel acquire the land without acquiring the people that reside on it. The problem is the same now as it was pre state and any and all means possible have been used, some of which I have cited as evidence. You have provided in your posts nothing to counter it , just a raft of baseless claims you have no intention of trying to back.
 

Evilroddy

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Israel for decades has aggressively been making life miserable for Palestinians, and pushing to take over more and more of their land. One of the ways is bulldozing their homes, sometimes to build illegal settlements for Israeli settlers. They are doing war crimes.

Where will we live? ; Palestinian girl cries as Israel razes her home+Video - Yemen Press
Craid234:

So far in this debate the discussion has hinged upon the ability to define IDF and Israeli state behaviour towards the Palestinians they militarily occupy as war crimes. But that level of proof is not necessary for people and nations to institute a boycott. South Africa was not committing war crimes when the world chose to sanction and boycott that state for behaviour which many people and states found profoundly wrong. So the litmus test for boycotts is not war crimes nor by extension crimes against humanity.

The state of Israel has militarily occupied lands as a result of a war it initiated in 1967. According to international law, which the state of Israel itself agreed to follow, that occupation cannot include settlement and annexation. Those are both publicly articulated policies of the State of Israel and are thus wrong behaviour.

The State of Israel has a duty to protect the occupied population of the lands it has militarily occupied since 1967. This duty to protect does not apply to the militants who attack the State of Israel by military or terroristic means but the duty does apply to the rest of the Palestinian/Arab population in those occupied territories under Israeli direct or indirect occupation. The State of Israel and its citizens are not protecting the militarily occupied people and additionally they are killing, wounding, harassing, depriving and dehousing them. Therefore this is wrong by international standards just as if the Palestinians were Indians in the British Empire, Rohingya in Myannmar or homeland peoples in South Africa. This wrongness and abrogation of international norms and laws (even if Israelis don't believe they apply to them) makes the case for BDS sound. BDS is warranted for Myannamar and the State of Israel without the need to prove war crimes.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 

Apocalypse

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I haven't " accused " anyone of being a " paid sponsor " of anything. That's just yet the latest example of baseless claims that have littered your posts here. And where was the argument " lost " to logic and reason ? There has been an ongoing willingness for demographic changes to the former Palestine by the early zionist movement and the state of Israel leaderships since before the state was even created. That is not even a contentious statement because the evidence for it in both word and actions is overwhelming and if you apply logic and reason to it, compelling.

That you choose to ignore of this in your replies/posts here, whilst making claims you are not prepared to back in them, is not anyone elses problem.
I really think you should focus on trying to create an actual logical argument for your empty claim rather than engage in discussions about whether other posters here who deny your claims are paid for by foreign entities or not.
 

Apocalypse

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A quote by a leading Israeli in charge of the events that have helped shape Israeli policy towards the Palestinians is " not relevant " to this dicsussion ? How so ? And, you have already claimed the quotes were taken out of context so that problem, you backing the claim made in your posts, again is your own.

The quotations have been used sparingly with the introduction of their being used as " spam " in your posts based on nothing whatsoever wrt any evidence for that claim.

The problem remains and has always been, how does the state of Israel acquire the land without acquiring the people that reside on it. The problem is the same now as it was pre state and any and all means possible have been used, some of which I have cited as evidence. You have provided in your posts nothing to counter it , just a raft of baseless claims you have no intention of trying to back.
"Have helped shape" is key part of your comment. You'd rather talk about what you claim "have helped shape" the policy you claim is Israel's, instead of bringing proof that the policy exists.
 

oneworld2

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I really think you should focus on trying to create an actual logical argument for your empty claim rather than engage in discussions about whether other posters here who deny your claims are paid for by foreign entities or not.

The claims that have fallen flat on their face are the ones to be found in your own posts here.

You've claimed so far that

Dayan quotes were taken out of context and failed to back it up in your subsequent posts.

You claimed the quotes are " irrelevant " ( to the situation with the Palestinians ) and failed to back it up in your subsequent posts.

You claimed the quotes were " spam " and failed to back it up in your subsequent posts.

You claimed that I have " accused " my opposition of being in the pay of foreign governments and failed to back it up in your subsequent posts.

I don't think your posts here should be given the least bit of seriousness by any seeking a decent debate. The list above, and there's a whole lot more that could have been said , is a testimony to how your posts are nothing but a collection of baseless/invented accusations aimed at trying to nullify discussions. It's a very old tradition that sadly still permeates this subforum waaay too often.

When you can actually support with evidence any accusations you make in your posts theymight be worth reading but until such times they just count as wastes of space imo
 

oneworld2

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"Have helped shape" is key part of your comment. You'd rather talk about what you claim "have helped shape" the policy you claim is Israel's, instead of bringing proof that the policy exists.

As the situations have changed so the policies have changed. This has been an ongoing consideration since before the state itself was even born. The evidence for it is everyewhere from the agreeing of compulsory transfer pre state to the illegal settler programme that stretches right up until today. No amount of evidence will engender a conversation in your posts, it's just not what your posts are here for imo. They are, imo, to actually fudge/disrupt/derail meaningful debates on the subject as the evidence here already shows once more
 

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As the situations have changed so the policies have changed. This has been an ongoing consideration since before the state itself was even born. The evidence for it is everyewhere from the agreeing of compulsory transfer pre state to the illegal settler programme that stretches right up until today. No amount of evidence will engender a conversation in your posts, it's just not what your posts are here for imo. They are, imo, to actually fudge/disrupt/derail meaningful debates on the subject as the evidence here already shows once more
I don't think the agreement to have Jews live in the West Bank by the state of Israel is a sufficing reason to believe that Arab citizens are not being granted building permits due to an intention to alter demographics.
 

oneworld2

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I don't think the agreement to have Jews live in the West Bank by the state of Israel is a sufficing reason to believe that Arab citizens are not being granted building permits due to an intention to alter demographics.

There is no agreement to have Jews living in the West Bank, they are there illegally, including those in East Jerusalem. They are imposed upon the residents in clear violation of international law with the state of Israel illegally trying to annexe the areas they have heavily populated with them.

The occupying power has to run things in the best interests of those people being occupied and they have no legal right to be deciding planning permission for the residents of East Jerusalem and the West Bank in general.

I see your post has avoided addressing the list of false claims you have made ? I thought it was in one of your posts where it was said that when people make a claim they are required to back it ?
 

Craig234

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So far in this debate the discussion has hinged upon the ability to define IDF and Israeli state behaviour towards the Palestinians they militarily occupy as war crimes. But that level of proof is not necessary for people and nations to institute a boycott.
I agree. Discussing war crimes is simply describing the actions, not required to justify a boycott.
 

oneworld2

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I agree. Discussing war crimes is simply describing the actions, not required to justify a boycott.

I fully support the tactics of a boycott/divestment but the BDS movement needs to make a decision of the question of Israel otherwise it is just easy meat for criticism by the other side. How hard would it be to make that step and avoid the rightful criticism ? That's just how I see it and it saddens me because I think the tactics are the right ones.
 

Craig234

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I fully support the tactics of a boycott/divestment but the BDS movement needs to make a decision of the question of Israel otherwise it is just easy meat for criticism by the other side. How hard would it be to make that step and avoid the rightful criticism ? That's just how I see it and it saddens me because I think the tactics are the right ones.
I'm not sure what you mean they need to do. Aren't they pretty clear what they are protesting?
 

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Israel's been made miserable for decades. A hit dog hollas.
 

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Israel for decades has aggressively been making life miserable for Palestinians, and pushing to take over more and more of their land. One of the ways is bulldozing their homes, sometimes to build illegal settlements for Israeli settlers. They are doing war crimes.

Where will we live? ; Palestinian girl cries as Israel razes her home+Video - Yemen Press
When you fight a war "to the victor goes the spoils". Palestinians, Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians have all fought with Isreal and pretty much lost or at best made a few small gains. Israel is protecting their sovereignty.
 

Integrityrespec

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No? Using civilians, for example, as human shields is a war crime as defined in the Geneva Conventions and International Law. Israel has been guilty of this for decades.

Israel: Soldiers’ Punishment for Using Boy as ‘Human Shield’ Inadequate | Human Rights Watch

Customary IHL - Rule 97. Human Shields

War crime - Wikipedia Note; "destroying civilian property" is included as a war crime.

"If I were an Arab leader I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal, we have taken their country. They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" David Ben Gurion, founder of modern Israel.

Americans hear but one side of the conflict; that of Israel, and accept all and any of AIPAC and US pro-Israeli propaganda as incontestable truth.
Do you really study anything that goes on in the Israeli Palestinian conflict?
 

oneworld2

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I'm not sure what you mean they need to do. Aren't they pretty clear what they are protesting?

The problem with the BDS movement is that it's movers and shakers and it's base are made up of people who support a one state solution ( which is the de facto elimination of the state of Israel as a Jewish democratic state ) and people who support the two state solution which , as you know, is two states, one Israeli one Palestinian.

The detractors of the movement , rightly imo, point out that many in the movement seek the destruction of the state of Israel and this leaves the entire movement easy to write off and ridicule. The tactics are right ,imo , but there should, however, be a mission statement in support of the two state solution for it to move from a fringe to the mainstream and thus be more broadly supported.
 

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Everyone of your posts has said nothing. Has challenged nothing. Has countered nothing. Has provided no evidence to support your own position and is just, basically, it's just your opinion whilst ignoring the evidence that supports my opinion. The facts are that what I quoted Dayan as saying was the " process " has been supported by both the policies and the results.

People need only look at the early Zionist/pre state conversations to know that the mission is and always has been, how to acquite the land without being lumbered with the people. That's what the evidence supports, that's what the policies have delivered and that's why you haven't seriously challenged any of it in your posts
'Eretz Israel' is and always has been the goal; an Arab-free Jewish state. And no amount of excuses will alter that fact, nor Israel's serial law-breaking of international laws and conventions-which they, by signing and accepting the laws and regulations of the United Nations Charter, cynically swore to uphold and abide by!
Until more moderate voices prevail in Israel (assuming they don't get assassinated in the process), she will remain a pariah state.
 

Craig234

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The problem with the BDS movement is that it's movers and shakers and it's base are made up of people who support a one state solution ( which is the de facto elimination of the state of Israel as a Jewish democratic state ) and people who support the two state solution which , as you know, is two states, one Israeli one Palestinian.

The detractors of the movement , rightly imo, point out that many in the movement seek the destruction of the state of Israel and this leaves the entire movement easy to write off and ridicule. The tactics are right ,imo , but there should, however, be a mission statement in support of the two state solution for it to move from a fringe to the mainstream and thus be more broadly supported.
OK, I agree with you to a point, but it also makes sense for there to be a big umbrella organization for sanctions for people who agree on the issue of treatment of the Palestinians, whatever there views on wanting to end Israel versus a two state solution, which should be a different issue from the sanctions about Palestinians.

I'm not sure a mission statement needs to address the topic of Israel existing, so much as to be limited to the treatment of Palestinians or any other relevant human rights issues.
 

oneworld2

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OK, I agree with you to a point, but it also makes sense for there to be a big umbrella organization for sanctions for people who agree on the issue of treatment of the Palestinians, whatever there views on wanting to end Israel versus a two state solution, which should be a different issue from the sanctions about Palestinians.

I'm not sure a mission statement needs to address the topic of Israel existing, so much as to be limited to the treatment of Palestinians or any other relevant human rights issues.

Okay, so now you are aware of my problem with the BDS movement generally. Most sane people who know anything about this subject will have no problem understanding how the Palestinians are being systematically violated by the state ioof Israel in occupied Palestine but it's the ones that don't understand who need to be incorporated into the umbrella of the BDS and the critics on the Israeli side have this huge target to punch away at that will ,imo , go a long way in keeping the BDS movement stuck in the stasis it currently occupies.

I want the BDS movement to gain traction and grow into a movement so big, that puts so much pressure on Israel, that the tipping point forces the change we all wish to see wrt the vile and systematic HRs violations of the occupied Palestinians. That won't happen ,imo , until the movement itself acknowledges that recognition of the Israeli state on the 67 lines is a fundamental component of that process of gaining enough support to make that transition.

The tactics are spot on but this Achilles Heel wrt the stance on Israel will hamper the movements ability to grow and actually force the application of the likes of sanctions. We are basically on the same side but maybe we have tactical differences of opinion, that's all.
 

Craig234

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Okay, so now you are aware of my problem with the BDS movement generally. Most sane people who know anything about this subject will have no problem understanding how the Palestinians are being systematically violated by the state ioof Israel in occupied Palestine but it's the ones that don't understand who need to be incorporated into the umbrella of the BDS and the critics on the Israeli side have this huge target to punch away at that will ,imo , go a long way in keeping the BDS movement stuck in the stasis it currently occupies.

I want the BDS movement to gain traction and grow into a movement so big, that puts so much pressure on Israel, that the tipping point forces the change we all wish to see wrt the vile and systematic HRs violations of the occupied Palestinians. That won't happen ,imo , until the movement itself acknowledges that recognition of the Israeli state on the 67 lines is a fundamental component of that process of gaining enough support to make that transition.

The tactics are spot on but this Achilles Heel wrt the stance on Israel will hamper the movements ability to grow and actually force the application of the likes of sanctions. We are basically on the same side but maybe we have tactical differences of opinion, that's all.
I guess here's how I'd look at it. South Africa would have loved to have changed the subject from 'why Apartheid is bad' to 'they are defending themselves from people who want to destroy their state'. Maybe some anti-apartheid people did want to overthrow the state, the anti-apartheid movement could include them without including their agenda on overthrowing the state.

It did end up overthrowing the government even if that wasn't the goal. It didn't have to. Why not have the boycott movement similarly just keep the agenda on ending wrongdoing to Palestinians and not let Israel make the topic about the people who want to overthrow their state? It's their oldest trick in the book to yell "anti-semitisism!" at anyone who criticizes anything the state does. They shouldn't be allowed to play that game.
 

oneworld2

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I guess here's how I'd look at it. South Africa would have loved to have changed the subject from 'why Apartheid is bad' to 'they are defending themselves from people who want to destroy their state'. Maybe some anti-apartheid people did want to overthrow the state, the anti-apartheid movement could include them without including their agenda on overthrowing the state.

It did end up overthrowing the government even if that wasn't the goal. It didn't have to. Why not have the boycott movement similarly just keep the agenda on ending wrongdoing to Palestinians and not let Israel make the topic about the people who want to overthrow their state? It's their oldest trick in the book to yell "anti-semitisism!" at anyone who criticizes anything the state does. They shouldn't be allowed to play that game.

The sad thing is Craig234, the charge of antisemitism works. I agree with you that they shouldn't be allowed to play that game but the reality is that they do and it works. My argument would be to undermine their use of it by pledging support for a just settlement of the two state solution thus negating the cries of , to paraphrase, " these antisemites want to get rid of the only Jewish state "

If Jewish critics of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians are universally referred to as antisemites, what chance anyone who is not ?

Not making the call on the two state leaves the entire movement wide open to the charge and hampers its ability to gain broader support imho. You have a different view and I am not unsympathetic to it, I just think for that one change the benefits would be enormous.
 
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