[W:#23,579]Ukraine War Thread (2 Viewers)

[Hamish Howl]

Korea? I know there were some of our allies there, but there hasn't been a WW since 2, so most wars since then don't have most of the western world involved.

Yeah, Korea had some hellacious urban combat.

 

[beerftw]

Incorrect. Whether or not the retreat was actually a rout, or a series of lower level orders unapproved by Moscow isn't known. BUT the failure to take a stand in larger urban areas was advantageous to their survival as that is what the Ukrainians were expecting, and by rolling around Izyum the Uks could have sealed the escape to the east. But the front was shattered so quickly the Russians decided to evacuate before the trap could be shut.



View attachment 67412274

The more I look at it the more I think russia ordered a retreat because they did not even have plans in place for defense, ie they never thought ukraine would try anything, and when ukraine pushed past the lightly guarded areas the russian brass probably realized they had no backup plan, even urban combat requires some planning.

It seems everything west of the river fell with little or no effort, but russia seems to be stopping them east of the river, again the quickness in the order to retreat after tiny militia groups already had further west indicates they never had a real strategy to defend the area. To make it worse this is not the first kharkiv offensive, the russiabs did the same in the last one, they lost large amounts of land up to a point then halted the ukrainians, you would have figured some planning would have been in place to prevent a repeat, the russians however still chose to leave most of it unguarded, even after they started reclaiming some of what they lost after ukrains first kharkiv counter offensive. offensive.

 

[JANFU]

So you're the guy!

But that being said, @Schrott seemed to confirm they're all (or mostly all) smart rounds:

[W:#23,579]Ukraine War Thread

More lethal kit from Germany How dare those darn Krauts, to deliver lethal weapons to the Ukraine, only God bless America and God save the King are supposed to do that. Not those Krauts, how can we bash them now, they need bashing, aint doing crap for the Ukraine. Next thing those NATO...

debatepolitics.com

And seeing as we sent anywhere from 800K-1M 155 rounds . . .

The US has given Ukraine nearly a million 155 mm artillery shells. Now it's looking for US companies to build more of them.

The US Army recently put out a survey looking US and Canadian companies that can build up to 12,000 M795 155 mm shells a month.

www.businessinsider.in

I am at fault and..................

 

[JANFU]

The more I look at it the more I think russia ordered a retreat because they did not even have plans in place for defense, ie they never thought ukraine would try anything, and when ukraine pushed past the lightly guarded areas the russian brass probably realized they had no backup plan, even urban combat requires some planning.

It seems everything west of the river fell with little or no effort, but russia seems to be stopping them east of the river, again the quickness in the order to retreat after tiny militia groups already had further west indicates they never had a real strategy to defend the area. To make it worse this is not the first kharkiv offensive, the russiabs did the same in the last one, they lost large amounts of land up to a point then halted the ukrainians, you would have figured some planning would have been in place to prevent a repeat, the russians however still chose to leave most of it unguarded, even after they started reclaiming some of what they lost after ukrains first kharkiv counter offensive. offensive.

Have the Russians managed to firm up the lines?
Did i really ask that.

 

[beerftw]

Korea? I know there were some of our allies there, but there hasn't been a WW since 2, so most wars since then don't have most of the western world involved.

Almost all wars since ww2 have had the west involved directly or indirectly. However in a true scale of urban warfare the current war in ukraine is the closest we have seen to ww1 and ww2 levels or real urban combat, as most wars since ww2 have often been settled fast or more often both sides choose not to use cities as the battle center.


This war is also seeing a return to brutal trench warfare, something that existed in ww2 but was mostly abandoned in ww1 due to the fact trenches made bottlenecks for chemical weapons, and foxholes were more flexible in offense and defense over a slower to build standard trench defense.

 

[Hamish Howl]

I am at fault and..................

That's my theme song.

 

[beerftw]

They weren't ordered, they fled in panic or decided it wasn't worth it.

It makes zero sense for Russian command to retreat out of strategic and hard won positions if they thought they could hold them. It makes perfect sense if they knew their forces were fleeing and wanted to preserve what they could.

The russians did order retreat, however you are partially right, many of the frontier areas were guarded by irregulars of the dnr and lpr and often in small numbers, they were no match to begin with. The shocker was ordering the retreat from izyum, as izyum and kopiansk(I probably mispelled both of them) were the major holder of troops, meaning they actually had the numbers but instead ordered a retreat in izyum and in kupiansk they ordered them to retreat to the east of the river.

 

[Chomsky]

The more I look at it the more I think russia ordered a retreat because they did not even have plans in place for defense, ie they never thought ukraine would try anything, and when ukraine pushed past the lightly guarded areas the russian brass probably realized they had no backup plan, even urban combat requires some planning.

It seems everything west of the river fell with little or no effort, but russia seems to be stopping them east of the river, again the quickness in the order to retreat after tiny militia groups already had further west indicates they never had a real strategy to defend the area. To make it worse this is not the first kharkiv offensive, the russiabs did the same in the last one, they lost large amounts of land up to a point then halted the ukrainians, you would have figured some planning would have been in place to prevent a repeat, the russians however still chose to leave most of it unguarded, even after they started reclaiming some of what they lost after ukrains first kharkiv counter offensive. offensive.

Thing is, Russia seems to be making a habit of it.

 

[JANFU]

That's my theme song.

That was my life, some might say for a long time.

 

[Hamish Howl]

That was my life, some might say for a long time.

Accepting personal responsibility is just letting the terrorists win.

 

[JANFU]

Thing is, Russia seems to be making a habit of it.

Give them some credit, they are getting better at it

 

[beerftw]

Why would they retreat & readily give-up something they fought to long & hard for? Why?

The didn't retreat for retreat's sake. They were over-run by a superior force. This is not part of the plan. It's the stuff we see in the propaganda channels, the claims of 4 dimension chess.

Many of the areas had no real defense, many of the outer areas retreated at the first sign of trouble which they should rightfully have, even a disciplined force will retreat, the difference being a disciplined force will retreat back to defensible positions where troops are in greater numbers, while an undisciplined one will throw down their weapons and just flee in general absondoning a war.

The russians did have quite a few troops there in only a few cities, my guess is given how unguarded the bulk of that area was the retreat was ordered because they had no combat plans, no defensive positions prepared, and treated it like no one would try and attack there.

There is no exact numbers, but from what I read it was around 10-15k ukrainians in the area taken vs 30-50k russians, with most of those soldiers in only a few areas while the ukranians were spread out. Imagine the shock when a retreat is ordered knowing you have superior fire power and superior numbers but realize your own side never planned that far ahead like they thought no one would try to attack through that direction.

 

[Chomsky]

The russians did order retreat, however you are partially right, many of the frontier areas were guarded by irregulars of the dnr and lpr and often in small numbers, they were no match to begin with. The shocker was ordering the retreat from izyum, as izyum and kopiansk(I probably mispelled both of them) were the major holder of troops, meaning they actually had the numbers but instead ordered a retreat in izyum and in kupiansk they ordered them to retreat to the east of the river.

Something obviously spooked them.

Maybe the amount of munitions or the accuracy, maybe losing intel/comm to PGM's, I dunno' - something.

Given their absolutely atrocious record crossing rivers under battle, maybe they wanted that river in front of them!

 

[beerftw]

Something obviously spooked them.

Maybe the amount of munitions or the accuracy, maybe losing intel to PGM's, I dunno' - something.

Given their absolutely atrocious record crossing rivers under battle, maybe they wanted that river in front of them!

Rivers are natural defense points, it is just plain and simple.

 

[Chomsky]

Rivers are natural defense points, it is just plain and simple.

Agreed. Didn't work, though.

And they fought long, hard, and expensively for Izyium & Lyman, to now give them back up? Why?

Remember that town where they lost 60-70 pieces in the river crossing? They just gave it back up - too. Makes no sense, to me, and smells of a lack of resources.

 

[maxparrish]

So you're the guy!

But that being said, @Schrott seemed to confirm they're all (or mostly all) smart rounds:

[W:#23,579]Ukraine War Thread

More lethal kit from Germany How dare those darn Krauts, to deliver lethal weapons to the Ukraine, only God bless America and God save the King are supposed to do that. Not those Krauts, how can we bash them now, they need bashing, aint doing crap for the Ukraine. Next thing those NATO...

debatepolitics.com

And seeing as we sent anywhere from 800K-1M 155 rounds . . .

The US has given Ukraine nearly a million 155 mm artillery shells. Now it's looking for US companies to build more of them.

The US Army recently put out a survey looking US and Canadian companies that can build up to 12,000 M795 155 mm shells a month.

www.businessinsider.in

I'm not sure what he means by a "smart round". The American PGM for 155mm is "Excalibur". It is a GPS guided munition that costs 100K each. The administration has asked for 100 million from Congress to replace the rounds provided to Ukraine, which is equal to 1,000 rounds.

Somewhere I read a tranche list, also showing 1000 Excaliburs promised to Ukraine.

Given the massive cost of 100,000 of these shells, a 100k shells would be 10 Billion dollars just for Excalibur's, 1/2 the approved yearly budget for Ukraine as passed in May.

I think we are getting the numbers mixed up with the usual tranch's of 75,000 to 100,000 dumb shells the US provides.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-08/most-accurate-us-artillery-shell-is-quietly-added-to-ukraine-aid?utm_campaign=bn&utm_medium=distro&utm_source=MSN&leadSource=uverify wall

 

[Chomsky]

I'm not sure what he means by a "smart round". The American PGM for 155mm is "Excalibur". It is a GPS guided munition that costs 100K each. The administration has asked for 100 million from Congress to replace the rounds provided to Ukraine, which is 1,000 rounds.

Somewhere I read a tranche list, also showing 1000 Excaliburs promised to Ukraine.

Given the massive cost of 100,000 of these shells, that would be 10 Billion dollars just for Excalibur's.

I think we are getting the numbers mixed up with the usual tranch's of 75,000 to 100,000 dumb shells the US provides.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-08/most-accurate-us-artillery-shell-is-quietly-added-to-ukraine-aid?utm_campaign=bn&utm_medium=distro&utm_source=MSN&leadSource=uverify wall

Yep. The bolded is my thought, too. I also found the 1K Excalibur order.

Is it possible there are 'smart' shells that are not to the abilities of the Excalibur's?

 

[beerftw]

Agreed. Didn't work, though.

And they fought long, hard, and expensively for Izyium & Lyman, to now give them back up? Why?

Remember that town where they lost 60-70 pieces in the river crossing? They just gave it back up - too. Makes no sense, to me, and smells of a lack of resources.

Such losses can work both ways, remember ukraine lost that plus more trying the kherson offensive, that was not a river but open terrain, while they did well in kharkiv exploited the terrain and lack of planning by the russians.

This is also the reason no one is ever successful invading russia, because terrain is far more formidable than their army, and russias entire terrain save a few spots near ukraine and belarus absolutely favors the defender.

Also russia was pretty stupid with their crossing, river crossings are dangerous, from my army training I remember in tight bridges and pontons the trucks, tanks etc were supposed to be staggered in a way that it minimized loss if an attack happened, which it often does being even the most retarded enemy can notice a bottleneck is an opening to attack. The russians screwed up bad by trying to ram theior armor across the river as fast as possible, and a buch of tanks bunched up plus artillery equals a bad day for the recieving end of the artillery.

 

[Chomsky]

Such losses can work both ways, remember ukraine lost that plus more trying the kherson offensive, that was not a river but open terrain, while they did well in kharkiv exploited the terrain and lack of planning by the russians.

This is also the reason no one is ever successful invading russia, because terrain is far more formidable than their army, and russias entire terrain save a few spots near ukraine and belarus absolutely favors the defender.

Are you speaking of the current Kherson offensive?

Also russia was pretty stupid with their crossing, river crossings are dangerous, from my army training I remember in tight bridges and pontons the trucks, tanks etc were supposed to be staggered in a way that it minimized loss if an attack happened, which it often does being even the most retarded enemy can notice a bottleneck is an opening to attack. The russians screwed up bad by trying to ram theior armor across the river as fast as possible, and a buch of tanks bunched up plus artillery equals a bad day for the recieving end of the artillery.

Yeah, I'm at a loss with that. I'm no military man, but it doesn't seem to make sense to have a lot of equipment bunched together like that.

 

[ChickenTendies]

If we can trust the Iraqi Army with M1A1s, what's the hold up with getting them to Ukraine, I wonder?
If they have been upgraded to the point we are cautious about Russia getting their hands on one, are any of the 3000 in storage of an earlier model that doesn't have this concern?
Or maybe allied nations have a few older ones we could work out a deal on.

Well, it might be because they run on jet fuel and have terrible mileage. Or, fear of escalation. One cannot treat Putin like an irrational lunatic and expect him to just idly sit by and watch this basically turn into a war with NATO.

 

[maxparrish]

Yep. The bolded is my thought, too. I also found the 1K Excalibur order.

Is it possible there are 'smart' shells that are not to the abilities of the Excalibur's?

Well, the US does have Copperheads, laser guided shells. But those were retired and stored sometime ago.

Anyway here is the real deal:

 

[ChickenTendies]

The russians did order retreat, however you are partially right, many of the frontier areas were guarded by irregulars of the dnr and lpr and often in small numbers, they were no match to begin with. The shocker was ordering the retreat from izyum, as izyum and kopiansk(I probably mispelled both of them) were the major holder of troops, meaning they actually had the numbers but instead ordered a retreat in izyum and in kupiansk they ordered them to retreat to the east of the river.

They withdrew from Izyum due to fears of being encircled. The Oskil river is a natural defensive boundary, and retreating to the eastern bank of the city would make their positions more tenable. Not sure what's going on now since there's a lot of conflicting reports. Point is, what I imagine was an initial rout turned into an okay situation for the Russians. Not having to defend whole swathes of, frankly, useless territory allows for the transfer of additional formations to the Donbas. Not to mention the Oskil River is far more defensible...If they hold it of course.

 

[beerftw]

Agreed. Didn't work, though.

And they fought long, hard, and expensively for Izyium & Lyman, to now give them back up? Why?

Remember that town where they lost 60-70 pieces in the river crossing? They just gave it back up - too. Makes no sense, to me, and smells of a lack of resources.

Such losses can work both ways, remember ukraine lost that plus more trying the kherson offensive, that was not a river but open terrain, while they did well in kharkiv exploited the terrain and lack of planning by the russians.

This is also the reason no one is ever successful invading russia, because terrain is far more formidable than their army, and russias entire terrain save a few spots near ukraine and belarus absolutely favors the defender.

Also russia was pretty stip with their crossing, river crossings are dangerous, from my army training I remember in tight bridges and pontons the trucks, tanks etc were supposed to be staggered in a way that it minimized loss if an attack happened, which it often does being even the most retarded enemy can notice a bottleneck is an opening to attack. The russians screwed up bad by trying to ram theior armor across the river as fast as possible, and a buch of tanks bunched up plus artillery equals a bad day for the recieving end of the artillery.

Are you speaking of the current Kherson offensive?



Yeah, I'm at a loss with that. I'm no military man, but it doesn't seem to make sense to have a lot of equipment bunched together like that.

Yes the recent/current kherson offensive, the opening days saw major losses for the ukrainians. It could have been a decoy or just poor planning, but they did make up for losses there with the kharkiv offensive where they made major gains with minimal losses.

You do not need to be a military man to understand a chokepoint is bad, You never want everything bunched up together but it happens even in the us military. When I was in 4id, we were taught in ruch marches and convoys to stagger and space out in uneven amounts, this is because if an ied, or rpg or whatever hits, you only lose a few soldiers and vehicles rather than mass numbers.

When I transitioned to the national guard, the brass could not understand why I protested to the layout of a ruckmarch, everyone nut to but basically a few inches apart, I explained a single ied or a single rpg attack could wipe out mass numbers being so close and the response I got was well not everything happens in a shitty country. The combat vets there knew, most of the nco's knew what I was talking about, but the brass were often not combat vets in the guard, or even much of the military, a combat experienced officer likes to do things based off known results, while a non experienced one makes decisions off what looks good on paper.

 

[Chomsky]

Well, the US does have Copperheads, laser guided shells. But those were retired and stored sometime ago.

Anyway here is the real deal:

View attachment 67413853

Wiki put it at a 22 Kg warhead. No idea how potent that is, but I found this on YouTube:



I realize PGM is the thing, but the impact wasn't overly impressive for $112K USD.

 

[Minerva]

Here is a link to an article from July 9th about 1K rounds being shipped to Ukraine.

Defense Industry of Ukraine