[W:2270] Does a Gun Make Your Home Safer?

[bluesmoke]

See Post #647

Regarding kitchen table sellers:

“Home-based gun sellers, who hold a majority of all gun shop licenses and regularly fail to record their sales and inventory properly, fail to perform background checks on buyers and sell off premises in places they, by law, should not…”

Illegal Gun Sales by Home-Based Hobby Dealers Under New Scrutiny | The Crime Report

You cannot verify that “less than 1% of guns in the hands of criminals are acquired at gun shows.” Considering the fact that the origination of the gun which the convicts acquire cannot be confirmed. They could have been stolen from a home where the original purchase was from a gun show, etc.

“A prior review of ATF gun show investigations shows that prohibited persons, such as convicted felons and juveniles, do personally buy firearms at gun shows and gun shows are sources of firearms that are trafficked to such prohibited persons. The gun show review found that firearms were diverted at and through gun shows by straw purchasers, unregulated private sellers, and licensed dealers. Felons were associated with selling or purchasing firearms in 46 percent of the gun show investigations. Firearms that were illegally diverted at or through gun shows were recovered in subsequent crimes, including homicide and robbery, in more than a third of the gun show investigations”

Gun shows in the United States - Wikipedia

“ATF estimates that there are now 2,000 gun shows held in the United States each year.18 Yet, in contrast, the National Association of Arms Shows estimates there are more than 100 gun shows every weekend—for an annual total of 5,200 shows. The National Association of Arms Shows also estimates that more than five million people attend such shows each year and that they generate billions of dollars in sales.”

VPC - The Violence Policy Center - Gun Shows in America - Section Three

Because gun shows need not document transaction that can verify how many sales take place at a given show, it cannot be said how many sales take place. However, with a range of 2,000 to 5,200 shows per yr, one can estimate the number of sales is substantial. BTW, of course ‘Purchases from "good guys" in private sales don't even show up.’ Like I said, they’re not recorded. That’s what makes your 1% and .8% unverifiable.

So, let’s do some math:
“The number of tables at a gun show varies from as few as fifty to as many as 2,000. At the largest gun shows, over 1,000 firearms are sold over two days. In 2007, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) reported that it found no definite numbers for U.S. gun shows, but said that estimates ranged from 2,000 to 5,200 a year.”

Gun shows in the United States - Wikipedia

Cut the largest 1,000 sold in half to 500 x halfway btx 2,000 to 5,200 shows/yr and you get 1,800,000 gun sales from shows each yr. Just guestimating, total gun sales Jan 2019 to Oct 2020 avg about 1.4M per mo, (just an eyeball estiate) meaning gun show sales were about 9%, not 1%, of total sales.

• Firearms: monthly unit sales by type U.S. 2020 | Statista

Your last cited study admits to statistics that cannot be validated for being incomplete and thus can only conclude the stats are unreliable to support what you suggest.

 

[Rucker61]

See Post #647

Regarding kitchen table sellers:

“Home-based gun sellers, who hold a majority of all gun shop licenses and regularly fail to record their sales and inventory properly

You're basing this on a conjecture of a single person with no credentials in the field?
"According to Brandon Maddox, a South Dakota Federal Firearm License-holder who helps businesses – including kitchen-table dealers – obtain licenses, 60 percent of gun dealers in the country operate out of their homes."

Do you have any actual references to ATF reports about the percentages of FFLs who are home based?

Do you have any data that shows what percentages of home based FFLs fail to record sales and inventory properly?

, fail to perform background checks on buyers and sell off premises in places they, by law, should not…”

Illegal Gun Sales by Home-Based Hobby Dealers Under New Scrutiny | The Crime Report

You cannot verify that “less than 1% of guns in the hands of criminals are acquired at gun shows.”

The FBI did.

Considering the fact that the origination of the gun which the convicts acquire cannot be confirmed. They could have been stolen from a home where the original purchase was from a gun show, etc.

Why would this matter? If a gun is stolen, it doesn't matter where the buy legally purchased it.

“ATF estimates that there are now 2,000 gun shows held in the United States each year.18 Yet, in contrast, the National Association of Arms Shows estimates there are more than 100 gun shows every weekend—for an annual total of 5,200 shows. The National Association of Arms Shows also estimates that more than five million people attend such shows each year and that they generate billions of dollars in sales.”

VPC - The Violence Policy Center - Gun Shows in America - Section Three

Because gun shows need not document transaction that can verify how many sales take place at a given show, it cannot be said how many sales take place.

the majority of sellers at gun shows are FFLs who are required by federal law to process these sales just like any sale in their normal place of business.

However, with a range of 2,000 to 5,200 shows per yr, one can estimate the number of sales is substantial. BTW, of course ‘Purchases from "good guys" in private sales don't even show up.’ Like I said, they’re not recorded. That’s what makes your 1% and .8% unverifiable.

You should tell the FBI. Their data comes from interviews by professional interrogators of the criminals who acquired the guns. The 42% that came from the black market, the 6% stolen, etc; none of those were recorded either. Did you understand the FBI report?

Cut the largest 1,000 sold in half to 500 x halfway btx 2,000 to 5,200 shows/yr and you get 1,800,000 gun sales from shows each yr. Just guestimating, total gun sales Jan 2019 to Oct 2020 avg about 1.4M per mo, (just an eyeball estiate) meaning gun show sales were about 9%, not 1%, of total sales.

The FBI noted that 0.8% of guns acquired by criminals came from gun shows. The number of actual sales at a gun show has nothing to do with the FBI data.

• Firearms: monthly unit sales by type U.S. 2020 | Statista

Your last cited study admits to statistics that cannot be validated for being incomplete and thus can only conclude the stats are unreliable to support what you suggest.

You should tell the FBI.

 

[DebateChallenge]

Some 'interesting' articles out there, articles that contradict the claims of many gun advocates.

View attachment 67332840​

The 'statistics' in this meme seem a bit high but research does show that guns in the house are more likely to harm a resident than an intruder.

Reconsidering Risks of Gun Ownership and Suicide in Unprecedented Times​

Guns in Home, Greater Odds of Family Homicide​

Living in a house with a gun increases your odds of death​

What a bunch of phoney baloney.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I make my home safer, and part of that includes me getting to decide what tools I want to use in those matters.
I chose several devices, I follow methods that work for me, and I chose to own firearms.
Altogether this means that I have several options, but it's not the hardware that "makes my home safer" anymore than merely owning a lawnmower makes me a landscaping expert.

 

[Crosscheck]

I make my home safer, and part of that includes me getting to decide what tools I want to use in those matters.
I chose several devices, I follow methods that work for me, and I chose to own firearms.
Altogether this means that I have several options, but it's not the hardware that "makes my home safer" anymore than merely owning a lawnmower makes me a landscaping expert.

I like that line especially the part "merely owning a lawnmower makes me a landscaping expert'. And I think you may hit the nail on the head with that statement.
The reason guns get such negative press is morons are allowed to own a gun and owning it they believe they are a capable firearm owner. Which we know is total BS. These are the ones who leave them out around children and fire a round into the next building while cleaning them.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

The reason guns get such negative press is morons are allowed to own a gun and owning it they believe they are a capable firearm owner.

THIS! ^^^
Fix that and we're getting somewhere.
Even Trump knew that while he could leave his pet Nazi Stephen Miller in charge of torturing Mexicans, he NEVER EVER left him the keys to the POTUS limo.

 

[TurtleDude]

THIS! ^^^
Fix that and we're getting somewhere.
Even Trump knew that while he could leave his pet Nazi Stephen Miller in charge of torturing Mexicans, he NEVER EVER left him the keys to the POTUS limo.

View attachment 67344324

if that is true-why did the democrats ban the future sale of currently made machine guns given the steps people had to go through to own them legally and given that the number of legally owned machine guns that have been misused over the last 8 decades is about the same as valid unicorn sightings ?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

if that is true-why did the democrats ban the future sale of currently made machine guns given the steps people had to go through to own them legally and given that the number of legally owned machine guns that have been misused over the last 8 decades is about the same as valid unicorn sightings ?

If WHAT is true? I gave my OPINION on what I figure would be helpful.
You're free to say my opinion isn't worth shit.

 

[rickc]

Well I don't purchase guns for personal protection. I enjoy hunting and the shooting sports. I hold a CCP but don't carry simply because it's uncomfortable. Always have a gun close by. I am 66 years old and have never had an instance where i felt the need for a gun for protection. That said I never want to be in a position where myself and loved one are victimized because I have no way to defend us. Being a helpless victim does not appeal to me.

 

[bluesmoke]

@bluesmoke What post? I'd be happy to answer, maybe I missed it.

You didn't miss it because I never sent it to you. FYI, see the last sentence of my post #646 regarding the specific posting in question.

 

[MAGAnificent]

How does it make a home safer? I will use 2nd amendment folks own words here. How does an inanimate object that just sits around doing nothing help? Remember, guns don't kill people. So if guns don't kill people what's the sense in owning a firearm to feel safer?

Homeowner Shoots And Kills Armed Intruder Who Kicked Down Door

A California homeowner fatally shot an armed intruder Tuesday who kicked down his door while he and his wife were eating breakfast, authorities said.

dailycaller.com

Man shoots knife-wielding home invader during break-in in Person County, deputies say

The Person County Sheriff's Office said a knife-wielding neighbor was shot after attempting to break into a home on the Person-Durham County line.

abc11.com

Pregnant Florida woman kills home intruder with AR-15

A pregnant Florida woman saved her husband and daughter's lives by killing a home intruder with an AR-15. The mom, who is eight months pregnant, retrieved

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[ttwtt78640]

Data shows guns do not make you safer; and increase the odds of a bad outcome in the home.

Guns are shit.

Yep, the same is true of swimming pools and power tools.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

Yep, the same is true of swimming pools and power tools.

CARS KILL MORE PEOPLE THAN GUNS DO YA WANNA BAN EM HUH DO YA?

 

[ttwtt78640]

CARS KILL MORE PEOPLE THAN GUNS DO YA WANNA BAN EM HUH DO YA?

I don’t want to ban anything. People know (or are easily able to learn) the risks involved and make their own decisions.

 

[Somerville]

Homeowner Shoots And Kills Armed Intruder Who Kicked Down Door

A California homeowner fatally shot an armed intruder Tuesday who kicked down his door while he and his wife were eating breakfast, authorities said.

dailycaller.com

Man shoots knife-wielding home invader during break-in in Person County, deputies say

The Person County Sheriff's Office said a knife-wielding neighbor was shot after attempting to break into a home on the Person-Durham County line.

abc11.com

Pregnant Florida woman kills home intruder with AR-15

A pregnant Florida woman saved her husband and daughter's lives by killing a home intruder with an AR-15. The mom, who is eight months pregnant, retrieved

www.washingtonexaminer.com

Yep, and then there are these tales of woe

2-year-old boy shoots both his parents​

5-year-old accidentally shoots and kills 3-year-old sister​

Parents left loaded gun on dashboard before purchasing marijuana the day their son shot himself​

Man accidentally shoots himself while cleaning gun​

10-year-old boy fatally shoots himself after finding gun in Philadelphia home​

The number of people killed by children in unintentional shootings between March and December of 2020 spiked 33 percent, from 97 deaths to 129, compared with the same period in 2019.

Yep, firearms make your homes safer -- in some world unconnected to reality.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Yep, and then there are these tales of woe

2-year-old boy shoots both his parents​

5-year-old accidentally shoots and kills 3-year-old sister​

Parents left loaded gun on dashboard before purchasing marijuana the day their son shot himself​

Man accidentally shoots himself while cleaning gun​

10-year-old boy fatally shoots himself after finding gun in Philadelphia home​

The number of people killed by children in unintentional shootings between March and December of 2020 spiked 33 percent, from 97 deaths to 129, compared with the same period in 2019.

Yep, firearms make your homes safer -- in some world unconnected to reality.

That is a valiant but meaningless attempt at negating the links I posted. More children die in accidental drowning in swimming pools and bathtubs then by guns, accidental or otherwise. More children die in automobile accidents then guns, accidental or otherwise. And the stories you just posted are far more rare then incidents of guns saving lives.

 

[rickc]

Yep, and then there are these tales of woe

2-year-old boy shoots both his parents​

5-year-old accidentally shoots and kills 3-year-old sister​

Parents left loaded gun on dashboard before purchasing marijuana the day their son shot himself​

Man accidentally shoots himself while cleaning gun​

10-year-old boy fatally shoots himself after finding gun in Philadelphia home​

The number of people killed by children in unintentional shootings between March and December of 2020 spiked 33 percent, from 97 deaths to 129, compared with the same period in 2019.

Yep, firearms make your homes safer -- in some world unconnected to reality.

Careless parents should not leave loaded guns where children can find them. Lots of simple ways to avoid this.

undisciplined children should not be allowed to play with guns.

 

[Lursa]

You didn't miss it because I never sent it to you. FYI, see the last sentence of my post #646 regarding the specific posting in question.

Post 646 doesnt address it.

It was more about everyone else's responsibilities with regards to individual's committing suicide. How did your post 646 address that? Post 648 better reflects our conversation...how about you pick it up from there?

 

[Somerville]

That is a valiant but meaningless attempt at negating the links I posted. More children die in accidental drowning in swimming pools and bathtubs then by guns, accidental or otherwise. More children die in automobile accidents then guns, accidental or otherwise. And the stories you just posted are far more rare then incidents of guns saving lives.

Careless parents should not leave loaded guns where children can find them. Lots of simple ways to avoid this.

undisciplined children should not be allowed to play with guns.

Nice attempt at justification boys. The links provided were what I found in just a couple minutes of searching.

It's old - 1997-'98 - but I'm sure we could find more recent data if we wished

Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home - PubMed

Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

More recent research

Gun Violence in America

Gun violence in America is at a crisis point. Every day, 125 people are killed from guns and more than twice as many are shot and wounded.

everytownresearch.org

• When it comes to gun violence in America, nearly two-thirds of gun deaths are suicides.4The US gun suicide rate is 10 times that of other high-income countries.
• Access to a gun triples the risk of death by suicide. Gun suicides are concentrated in states with high rates of gun ownership.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Nice attempt at justification boys. The links provided were what I found in just a couple minutes of searching.

It's old - 1997-'98 - but I'm sure we could find more recent data if we wished

You so did not get the point.

 

[rickc]

Nice attempt at justification boys. The links provided were what I found in just a couple minutes of searching.

It's old - 1997-'98 - but I'm sure we could find more recent data if we wished


More recent research

Keep on swinging. Abortion and guns. Differences of opinion. Each side can find information supporting their opinion. But that is all you have is an opinion. The law is what you need to change if you don't like it. No minds will be changed here.

Fact is whatever the law says I am keeping my guns.

Fact is even if abortion becomes illegal women will still seek out and obtain abortions. Many will be performed by unqualified people in unsanitary conditions putting the life of the woman in danger. The right should be held accountable for the suffering and death caused by this stupid prohibition law they have been pursuing for decades.

 

[bluesmoke]

Yep, the same is true of swimming pools and power tools.

Swimming pools and power tools are not manufactured for home or personal defense.

 

[bluesmoke]

Post 646 doesnt address it.

It was more about everyone else's responsibilities with regards to individual's committing suicide. How did your post 646 address that? Post 648 better reflects our conversation...how about you pick it up from there?

You never replied to my post #609. Please do me the courtesy of a reply respective of my post. We can go from there, with this recent post #668 of yours incl.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Swimming pools and power tools are not manufactured for home or personal defense.

True, but they are responsible for accidental injury and death. Does that make them safe to have at one’s home?

 

[TurtleDude]

Careless parents should not leave loaded guns where children can find them. Lots of simple ways to avoid this.

undisciplined children should not be allowed to play with guns.

people buying dope most likely will not follow rules about firearms either