[W: #18] Jesus is GOD

[LittleNipper]

But, you don't have the HOLY SPIRIT because you don't believe HE is a person of the TRINITY. NEW WORLD TRANSLATION John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless, I am telling YOU the truth, It is for YOUR benefit I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will by no means come to YOU; but if I do go my way, I will send him to YOU. 8 And when THAT ONE arrives HE will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment:

Oddly, the Witnesses do not consider the HOLY SPIRIT anything other than some force ----- but they offer no proof. But, HE is a HE nevertheless... Anyway, it would seem that the Witnesses need more study and less distorted dogma...

 

[Metanoia]

For the observers of this thread it would be both interesting and informative if each camp spelled out the consequences of believing the wrong thing…..

 

[Daisy]

For the observers of this thread it would be both interesting and informative if each camp spelled out the consequences of believing the wrong thing…..

I think that decision is soley up to Jehovah God, our responsibility is to obtain the truth of God's Word, as much as humanly possible...we never stop learning if we sincerely care about learning the truth...case in point...

https://debatepolitics.com/threads/...ssage-of-jesus.568646/page-18#post-1081522444
Ok, I did a little research, you're right, I'm wrong...I got the Passover and the Pentecost mixed up, as well as the 2 different Judas'...scratch everything I said about that subject...sorry, my goof up and I owe you a sincere apology...not the 1st, won't be the last for this old woman...

I stand by this though...they/the Jewish believers were considered the 1st Christians...

 

[CLAX1911]

Yes, Jesus made it clear he was God, and God's son.

Not only did they try and stone him for the above they wanted to stone him on another occasion for saying "before Abraham was born, I AM".

They understood the language and knew what Jesus was testifying.

And to further describe.

John 20:28
28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

If Jesus was not God he would have corrected Timothy but he didn't. Jesus on multiple occasions corrected somone when they mispoke.

Paul proclaims in the scriptures of Titus who he was waiting for

Titus 2:13
13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

This is why I say JWs aren't Christian they don't believe Christ is God.

 

[tosca1]

And so do JW's, but their worship to God only goes to One, the Father.

@Daisy
@Alter2Ego





I don't know what you understand about.....

OBEDIENCE.
SUBMISSION.
SURRENDER. (refer to post #1,015)

But it seems, it's not the same way that's been defined in the Bible.




JW has failed in obedience by this one solid example (among other things).


GOD: DO NOT ADD. DO NOT REMOVE

JESUS: DO NOT ADD. DO NOT REMOVE.


Until JW repent and undo what they'd done to their NWT.......................they are being disobedient.



Wlful disobedience, is not submission. It isn't surrender.
It is the opposite.



Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

 

[tosca1]

I think @Daisy or @redbeer was arguing that, Jesus is not equal with GOD.

Here is a rebuttal that proves them wrong.


On researching about OBEDIENCE just now, I've stumbled on this, showing................ JESUS is EQUAL with GOD.

Another priceless clear indication that ..............JESUS IS GOD:

God (The WORD) coming to us in the form of a human - JESUS - to fulfill all Messianic prophecies, and God's purpose.




Philippians 2
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:


6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

 

[tosca1]

For the observers of this thread it would be both interesting and informative if each camp spelled out the consequences of believing the wrong thing…..

Believing the wrong thing out of genuine ignorance of the truth............might be judged differently from someone who already knows the truth, and yet still refuses to bend.

Nothing is hidden from GOD.


FAITH - hinges on OBEDIENCE.
They come together.



Luke 6

The Wise and Foolish Builders​

46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like.
48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation.
The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”



Matthew 7

True and False Disciples​

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’



John 14:21
Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”




James 1:22
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

 

[redbeer]

Most if not all TRINITARIANS claim to believe the BIBLE is without error, and is the inspired Word from GOD. They are well studied, have seminaries for their leadership, and promote higher education ---- and are founders of not a few colleges, etc... Many are independent and yet have close ties with other such denominations. And TRINITARIANS also encourage voting and getting Christians in places of authority to guide our nation and not simply live in it.

Yes, they have become worldly with accolades of higher education, similar to the religious leaders of Jesus' time. Pompous attitudes filled with religious pride and have all but left "original" Christianity behind.

 

[redbeer]

@Daisy
@Alter2Ego





I don't know what you understand about.....

OBEDIENCE.
SUBMISSION.
SURRENDER. (refer to post #1,015)

But it seems, it's not the same way that's been defined in the Bible.




JW has failed in obedience by this one solid example (among other things).


GOD: DO NOT ADD. DO NOT REMOVE

JESUS: DO NOT ADD. DO NOT REMOVE.


Until JW repent and undo what they'd done to their NWT.......................they are being disobedient.



Wlful disobedience, is not submission. It isn't surrender.
It is the opposite.



Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

I worship Jesus as my Lord.

I worship the Father as my God.

I can say the Father is my Lord God.

Yet, I can not say Jesus is my Lord God.

I truly only have One God, One Christ, one faith and I am One with them, and they are One with me, for they are in me, as the Father was in Christ. These are all decreed by the only One True God, the Father of Christ. This is the mark of God's People.

 

[redbeer]

I think @Daisy or @redbeer was arguing that, Jesus is not equal with GOD.

Here is a rebuttal that proves them wrong.


On researching about OBEDIENCE just now, I've stumbled on this, showing................ JESUS is EQUAL with GOD.

Another priceless clear indication that ..............JESUS IS GOD:

God (The WORD) coming to us in the form of a human - JESUS - to fulfill all Messianic prophecies, and God's purpose.




Philippians 2
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:


6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Phil. 2 is not telling us that Jesus dropped being a God to become a human being. The verses 6 through 11 is the explanation in how we are to have the same mindset as Jesus did.



(Php 2:5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
(Php 2:6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(Php 2:7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
(Php 2:8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


You conveniently left out verses 9-11 for more proper context:


(Php 2:9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
(Php 2:10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(Php 2:11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


God highly exalted him that every tongue should confess Jesus Christ is Lord, the the glory of God the Father. This is not a picture of a God becoming a man only to going back to being God again.....you have missed the entire point.

 

[LittleNipper]

Yes, they have become worldly with accolades of higher education, similar to the religious leaders of Jesus' time. Pompous attitudes filled with religious pride and have all but left "original" Christianity behind.

Speaking of "Pompous", Didyou know that Charles Taze Russell (founder of the "Jehovah Witnesses") is now buried under a pagan Pyramid in United Cemetery, Ross Township, Pennsylvania? . https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/5591/charles_taze-russell

 

[Daisy]

It's true that Charles Taze Russell, the founder of what later became known as the Jehovah's Witnesses, is buried in the United Cemetery in Ross Township, Pennsylvania.
Regarding the pyramid:

• There was a pyramid-shaped monument, not directly a tomb, erected near his grave by the Watch Tower Society in 1921.
• This pyramid was not intended as a pagan symbol, but rather as a representation of Russell's belief in the Great Pyramid of Giza as a "Bible in Stone," according to WordPress.com.
• Russell and his followers interpreted the Great Pyramid's measurements as aligning with biblical prophecies and dates, such as the beginning of Christ's invisible presence.

Important distinctions:

• Russell's actual grave is marked by a headstone, not the pyramid.
• The pyramid was not a traditional Egyptian-style burial structure, but rather a symbolic monument related to Russell's specific interpretation of the Great Pyramid.

The pyramid's removal:

• The pyramid was vandalized and eventually removed by the Jehovah's Witnesses in 2021 due to its connection with Russell's interpretations and the presence of a cross and crown symbol, which they no longer endorse.
• This removal reflects the evolving doctrines and beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses since Russell's time.

In summary: Charles Taze Russell is buried in United Cemetery, and while a pyramid monument was once located near his grave, it was not a pagan tomb, but a symbolic representation related to his beliefs about the Great Pyramid, and it has since been removed.
Google

 

[LittleNipper]

It's true that Charles Taze Russell, the founder of what later became known as the Jehovah's Witnesses, is buried in the United Cemetery in Ross Township, Pennsylvania.
Regarding the pyramid:

• There was a pyramid-shaped monument, not directly a tomb, erected near his grave by the Watch Tower Society in 1921.
• This pyramid was not intended as a pagan symbol, but rather as a representation of Russell's belief in the Great Pyramid of Giza as a "Bible in Stone," according to WordPress.com.
• Russell and his followers interpreted the Great Pyramid's measurements as aligning with biblical prophecies and dates, such as the beginning of Christ's invisible presence.

Important distinctions:

• Russell's actual grave is marked by a headstone, not the pyramid.
• The pyramid was not a traditional Egyptian-style burial structure, but rather a symbolic monument related to Russell's specific interpretation of the Great Pyramid.

The pyramid's removal:

• The pyramid was vandalized and eventually removed by the Jehovah's Witnesses in 2021 due to its connection with Russell's interpretations and the presence of a cross and crown symbol, which they no longer endorse.
• This removal reflects the evolving doctrines and beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses since Russell's time.

In summary: Charles Taze Russell is buried in United Cemetery, and while a pyramid monument was once located near his grave, it was not a pagan tomb, but a symbolic representation related to his beliefs about the Great Pyramid, and it has since been removed.
Google

And Christmas trees cannot be symbolic and illustrative of Paradise/heaven/the New Jerusalem? You don't see the contradictions here? The Egyptians built Pyramids for pagan reasons, but in fact Russell has his own view and opinions of the Great Pyramid.

 

[Daisy]

And Christmas trees cannot be symbolic and illustrative of Paradise/heaven/the New Jerusalem? You don't see the contradictions here? The Egyptians built Pyramids for pagan reasons, but in fact Russell has his own view and opinions of the Great Pyramid.

Guess you missed this...

This removal reflects the evolving doctrines and beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses since Russell's time.

 

[LittleNipper]

Guess you missed this...

I don't believe in evolution, do you? I believe what is right the first time around and not practice errors. I do realize people make mistakes, but I don't see how extremist views once expoused as correct, can be applied to illustrative ornamentation and holiday enjoyment as being pagan ritualism make everyone else appear evil.

 

[Daisy]

I don't believe in evolution, do you? I believe what is right the first time around and not practice errors. I do realize people make mistakes, but I don't see how extremist views once expoused as correct, can be applied to illustrative ornamentation and holiday enjoyment as being pagan ritualism make everyone else appear evil.

So, you prefer to remain stagnant and wrong even after you learn better...got it...people not willing to change or admit they're wrong are...well...stubborn...there's a name for that...it's called metathesiophobia...

 

[LittleNipper]

So, you prefer to remain stagnant and wrong even after you learn better...got it...people not willing to change or admit they're wrong are...well...stubborn...there's a name for that...it's called metathesiophobia...

I prefer that individuals realize that everything that they wish others to believe isn't of concern to CHRIST, the HOLY SPIRIT, or the FATHER. And that some religious groups make their concern one of constant confrontation and not one of salvation. They seek to set themselves apart by demanding strict adherence to leadership OPINIONS within their group. I'm not always wrong, and I certainly don't wish to follow the dictates of any group which has been shown to be misguided time after time. And yet tries to hid this fact, while pointing out errors among other groups that are inconsequential, and founded on manipulative, self-servicing arrogance to control the biblical naive.

 

[LittleNipper]

Yes, they have become worldly with accolades of higher education, similar to the religious leaders of Jesus' time. Pompous attitudes filled with religious pride and have all but left "original" Christianity behind.

You'd rather remain secluded and uninformed while not contributing to social reform through voting and community involvement. And then complain when things don't seem to go your way...

 

[Daisy]

I prefer that individuals realize that everything that they wish others to believe isn't of concern to CHRIST, the HOLY SPIRIT, or the FATHER. And that some religious groups make their concern one of constant confrontation and not one of salvation. They seek to set themselves apart by demanding strict adherence to leadership OPINIONS within their group. I'm not always wrong, and I certainly don't wish to follow the dictates of any group which has been shown to be misguided time after time. And yet tries to hid this fact, while pointing out errors among other groups that are inconsequential, and founded on manipulative, self-servicing arrogance to control the biblical naive.

Look, I could not care less what you believe, I am not gonna stop voicing what I believe...get used to it....

 

[LittleNipper]

Look, I could not care less what you believe, I am not gonna stop voicing what I believe...get used to it....

But from looking at the history of the Witnesses, they make things up and expect others to regard it as correct. About every 20 years or so, Jesus has returned and has to be invisible because no one sees anything different... You can say or believe anything you wish; however, if it isn't correct or it's unreasonably strict without any real support, I am obliged to warn those who are not Bible ready, that CHRIST's yoke is easy but the that of the Witnesses is one of controlling drudgery. So, get use to it --- The neighborhoods are being warned.

 

[Daisy]

But from looking at the history of the Witnesses, they make things up and expect others to regard it as correct. About every 20 years or so, Jesus has returned and has to be invisible because no one sees anything different... You can say or believe anything you wish; however, if it isn't correct or it's unreasonably strict without any real support, I am obliged to warn those who are not Bible ready, that CHRIST's yoke is easy but the that of the Witnesses is one of slavery. So, get use to it --- the neighborhoods are being warned.

If what I post makes you feel guilty, then maybe you should rethink what you believe...just sayin'...

 

[redbeer]

You'd rather remain secluded and uninformed while not contributing to social reform through voting and community involvement. And then complain when things don't seem to go your way...

Huh?......where did this come from, lol. Must have passed gas or something. I'm not a blind herd follower and through a sincere prayer as a young man has led me to a much different walk than mainstream churchianity. Amazed in the beginning how so many believe in fables, false doctrines while they ostracize, destroy anyone's character who will/does not align with the "accepted" beliefs. Multi-faced forked tongued religious hypocrites whose days are numbered.

Becoming the very thing Jesus hated....."worldly, fake, pompous, hypocrites, who take advantage of old women and people going through hard times, indoctrinating them while they fleece the flock with unlimited cons to enrich themselves with favor, position, and accolades......disgusting, imo.

 

[LittleNipper]

If what I post makes you feel guilty, then maybe you should rethink what you believe...just sayin'...

I don't feel shame nor guilt with regard to anything the Witnesses offer. I do feel sorrow that such fervent people could be so blind to the truth as are those who practice Mormonism. I wish I could remove your blinders, but only the HOLY SPIRIT can do that. The questions are which do YOU love more, JW.org or Our LORD JESUS CHRIST? And which are YOU willing to serve the Kingdom Hall or HOLY SPIRIT? Both require your cooperation with them and not some organization.

 

[LittleNipper]

Huh?......where did this come from, lol. Must have passed gas or something. I'm not a blind herd follower and through a sincere prayer as a young man has led me to a much different walk than mainstream churchianity. Amazed in the beginning how so many believe in fables, false doctrines while they ostracize, destroy anyone's character who will/does not align with the "accepted" beliefs. Multi-faced forked tongued religious hypocrites whose days are numbered.

Becoming the very thing Jesus hated....."worldly, fake, pompous, hypocrites, who take advantage of old women and people going through hard times, indoctrinating them while they fleece the flock with unlimited cons to enrich themselves with favor, position, and accolades......disgusting, imo.

I don't know your former religious background, but I do know that following GOD requires one to follow HIS Word . That doesn't mean one may not experience questions and moments of doubt, but, it does require perseverance in expecting GOD to reveal the answers one seeks. And that is maturity. Everyone's days are numbered as are the hairs of our head.

 

[redbeer]

I don't feel shame nor guilt with regard to anything the Witnesses offer. I do feel sorrow that such fervent people could be so blind to the truth as are those who practice Mormonism. I wish I could remove your blinders, but only the HOLY SPIRIT can do that. The questions are which do YOU love more, JW.org or Our LORD JESUS CHRIST? And which are YOU willing to serve the Kingdom Hall or HOLY SPIRIT? Both require your cooperation with them and not some organization.

Trinitarianism is the largest multi-branched organization in the history of the world, having its tentacles within the majority of Christianity, both Catholicism and Protestantism require belief in this doctrine.

I notice most trinitarians who attempt to debate always end up losing the debate and turn it into personal insults and accusations, for they don't have a lot of scripture for support, mainly nothing but only twisted, obscure, read into verses hodge-podged together like a mysterious puzzle only they grasp.

As you know, I'm not a trinitarian nor a member of the JW's and from what I can see, Daisy has left you all in the dust, to where now all you can do is hurl insults, crying for the teething ring.