[W:1103] Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack on the country - Live Thread.

[Spock]

It’s literally what happened dude. The historical facts don’t change just because you find them inconvenient

What is your point?

 

[BirdinHand]

No, they are dead because Israel chose to carry out a strategy they know produces large numbers of dead civilians.

Not an excuse for killing innocent civilians, sorry.

So when Hamas uses children and civilians as human shields…just let them be/let them go?

Let them sit and plan and strategize and attack while hiding behind civilians and do nothing?

 

[Tigerace117]

Using civilians as human shields is a war crime. Why aren’t you blaming Hamas for these deaths?

Israel has repeatedly used human shields itself.

”According to many observers, including B'tselem, the IDF repeatedly used Palestinians as human shields. This practice became military policy during the Second Intifada, and was only dropped when Adalah challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. though the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[98] Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[99]

“During the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[118] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[118][119]Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[120] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[121][122]“

Human shield - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RF667799]

Israel did, in fact, behave like Hamas when it was in Hamas’ position. The historical facts prove it.

Which wasn't his claim.

 

[Spock]

Translation: "You're right, I don't know what the **** asymmetric warfare is and I look stupid using the term, but I support the murder of innocent people in Israel and it's the closet thing I can find to maybe justify my abominable position."



You are absolutely justifying it. Your broken understanding of the situation in Israel dictates that war by Hamas is justified, and that targeting civilians specifically is "asymmetric warfare".

You are either consciously justifying it or too ignorant and passively ambivalent towards violence against Israel that you made a woefully stupid argument that you are too stubbornly ignorant to correct. Normally the charitable answer is you are just ignorant, but when you vault over a pile of men women and children who were brutally murdered and raped for having the temerity to live of visit Israel, I am not feeling very charitable.. maybe malicious, callous, wretched ideological-zombie ignorance is a middle ground.



Are you ****ing serious? You try to Pidgeon-hole mass-targeted rape and slaughter of innocent men women and children into an acceptable act of war and you want to accuse ANYONE ELSE of convenient cliches?

Yes, outrage over the slaughter of nearly 1000 innocent men women and children is a "convenient cliche"... the astounding gall you have.



Again with your stupid arguments. What determines bravery versus barbarity and cowardice is the target of that bomb, and the reason it was dropped. If they dropped the bomb on a PEACE FESTIVAL because it was a PEACE FESTIVAL then you might have an argument, but they don't. They drop those bombs on weapons caches, safe houses, and command bunkers of the enemy whose COWARDICE leads Hamas to put their military targets in civilian schools and dwellings because their war is fueled by ****ing morons in the west who can't seem to figure out who Hamas really is other than anti-Israel which is all the ****ing morons seem to need to know.

I presented my argument, which your entrenched bias seems to prevent you from understanding, but my observations remain correct and consistent with history.

 

[Tigerace117]

So when Hamas uses children and civilians as human shields…just let them be/let them go?

Let them sit and plan and strategize and attack while hiding behind civilians and do nothing?

Tactics that kill Palestinian civilians actively strengthen Hamas. If your concern is their “planning and strategizing“ then perhaps you should consider that reality.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Ah, you advocate for the grooming of the children.

Grooming them to be productive and well behaved? Yea I advocate for that. Do you not?

 

[Tigerace117]

Which wasn't his claim.

Gee, “With sufficient motivation and limited resources in warfare, all groups (Jews, Pro-life Christians, Trump supporters, Ukrainians, British, etc. ) will behave like Hamas to promote their agenda.”

Seems pretty clear to me.

And the historical facts prove it accurate.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Tactics that kill Palestinian civilians actively strengthen Hamas.

You claim this but you have no evidence. What you mean at most is half measures don’t reduce the problem

If your concern is their “planning and strategizing“ then perhaps you should consider that reality.

 

[Mongidig]

Israel has repeatedly used human shields itself.

”According to many observers, including B'tselem, the IDF repeatedly used Palestinians as human shields. This practice became military policy during the Second Intifada, and was only dropped when Adalah challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. though the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[98] Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[99]

“During the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[118] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[118][119]Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[120] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[121][122]“

Human shield - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you admit Hamas has done this and this is why the civilian casualty count is so high?

 

[Tigerace117]

Are you enjoying how Hamas is behaving? Were you excited when you heard about the barbaric attack?

Just setting up a baseline for what I am dealing with. Maybe you are objectively looking at this but are wrong. Maybe you are on the side of Hamas.

If Israel wants to behave like Hamas it should do so without another cent of US aid.

 

[Tigerace117]

You claim this but you have no evidence. What you mean at most is half measures don’t reduce the problem

You being upset because your heroes employed similarly brutal tactics and you don’t like facing the reality they don’t work.....doesn’t change the facts.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Gee, “With sufficient motivation and limited resources in warfare, all groups (Jews, Pro-life Christians, Trump supporters, Ukrainians, British, etc. ) will behave like Hamas to promote their agenda.”

Seems pretty clear to me.

And the historical facts prove it accurate.

Yeah I’m not aware of American pro-life advocates and trump supporters skullcapping babies in car seats so your bullshit argument is just that

 

[Tigerace117]

Do you admit Hamas has done this and this is why the civilian casualty count is so high?

No, the casualty count is so high because Israel chooses tactics which butcher Palestinian civilians en masse.

 

[RF667799]

I presented my argument, which your entrenched bias seems to prevent you from understanding, but my observations remain correct and consistent with history.

A claim that you have observed everything past, present and future will be tough to support. I make no claims to know a universal truth myself, but I'm betting you won't support your claim, and that @Tigerace117 won't be much help.

 

[Tigerace117]

Yeah I’m not aware of American pro-life advocates and trump supporters skullcapping babies in car seats so your bullshit argument is just that

American far right extremists have been more than happy to set off bombs all over the place, as the historical record shows.

 

[BirdinHand]

Tactics that kill Palestinian civilians actively strengthen Hamas. If your concern is their “planning and strategizing“ then perhaps you should consider that reality.

Then I guess it is time that Hamas is eliminated from the face of the planet.

And it would seem that’s Israel’s plan considering how many IDF troops they are amassing at the Gaza border.

 

[coyote505]

There was no 'contract', real or imagined. The onus is on Israel, the occupying power, to resolve this, but as long as Israel continues the illegal occupation, the illegal transfer of her population into disputed territory, and the continued building of illegal settlements, the Palestinians will continue to resist, as is their right under International Law. Bombing Gaza into rubble will only strengthen their resolve.

What is the procedure under international law, where you defeat a country that has attacked you, but they refuse to stand down? Isn't this just a continuing state of warfare?

 

[Tigerace117]

A claim that you have observed everything past, present and future will be tough to support. I make no claims to know a universal truth myself, but I'm betting you won't support your claim, and that @Tigerace117 won't be much help.

......we literally have numerous well documented massacres carried out by Israel when Israel was in Hamas’ current position.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

You being upset because your heroes employed similarly brutal tactics and you don’t like facing the reality they don’t work.....

For who did it not work? It certainly worked for Franco. It worked for Stepan Bandera (although unlike Franco he’s not a hero of mine, but that’s aside the point) it worked for the French crown during the Albigensian crusade.

Being brutal often does work. At least when you don’t employ half measures

 

[Mongidig]

If Israel wants to behave like Hamas it should do so without another cent of US aid.

Israel is the opposite of Hamas. Israelis value life. Israelis would never sacrifice their children to be suicide bombers. Israelis welcome all types of people into their nation. Do you think any white person would feel comfortable walking through Gaza?

Do you see the difference?

 

[Tigerace117]

Then I guess it is time that Hamas is eliminated from the face of the planet.

And it would seem that’s Israel’s plan considering how many IDF troops they are amassing at the Gaza border.

Israel has attempted that numerous times....and failed each one.

And then, of course, there’s the reality that “eliminating” Hamas without addressing the root causes is meaningless.

 

[zincwarrior]

If there's an organization that was functioning during the Hamas terrorist massacres on Saturday morning it's the police.
Israeli police release the figures now and they alone have killed over 400 terrorists.
And YAMAM which is the Israeli SWAT unit of the police has killed 150 during the numerous operations to release hostages taken by the terrorists in their homes.

Were the civilians at the concert and other areas armed? It was my understanding that that is a thing in Israel.

 

[Mongidig]

No, the casualty count is so high because Israel chooses tactics which butcher Palestinian civilians en masse.

Hamas hasn’t used civilians as human shields?

 

[Tigerace117]

For who did it not work? It certainly worked for Franco. It worked for Stepan Bandera (although unlike Franco he’s not a hero of mine, but that’s aside the point) it worked for the French crown during the Albigensian crusade.

Being brutal often does work. At least when you don’t employ half measures

Gee, given that Franco’s regime collapsed within five years after his death....clearly not.