Virginia high court rules for teacher who won't use transgender students' pronouns

[Rich2018]

What political reason did Christine Jorgenson have in 1950?

From GI Joe to GI Jane: Christine Jorgensen’s Story | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

WWII veteran Christine Jorgensen became the first American transgender woman to attain fame for having sex reassignment surgery. Her story has influenced many others and helped redefine gender identity.

www.nationalww2museum.org

Good post.

 

[Rumpel]

Good post.

Who is Christine Jorgenson?

 

[Rich2018]

Who is Christine Jorgenson?

Did she play full back for the Bayern Munich women's team ?

 

[Glitch]

actually there is quite a significant population that medically is both sexes and were born that way.

No, there isn't. The biggest population of mutation are the 48,XXYY which account for 0.00588%, or 1 out of every 17,000 males born. There are several other mutations (47,XXY, 47,XXX, 47,XYY, etc.), but all of them combined amount to less than 0.01% of the population. Which means that 99.99% of the population are born specifically male or female, biologically.

The XXYY Syndrome are those born with screwed up chromosome pairing, that could alter their physical appearance, or have no apparent visual differences at all. These are true biological mutations, and not a mental disorder.

What is XXYY Syndrome?

XXYY Syndrome is the name attached to the cluster of symptoms that arise as a result of the 48,XXYY chromosome pattern. It affects one in every 17,000 boys.

genetic.org

 

[ClaraD]

No, there isn't. The biggest population of mutation are the 48,XXYY which account for 0.00588%, or 1 out of every 17,000 males born. There are several other mutations (47,XXY, 47,XXX, 47,XYY, etc.), but all of them combined amount to less than 0.01% of the population. Which means that 99.99% of the population are born specifically male or female, biologically.

The XXYY Syndrome are those born with screwed up chromosome pairing, that could alter their physical appearance, or have no apparent visual differences at all. These are true biological mutations, and not a mental disorder.

What is XXYY Syndrome?

XXYY Syndrome is the name attached to the cluster of symptoms that arise as a result of the 48,XXYY chromosome pattern. It affects one in every 17,000 boys.

genetic.org

that is incorrect. every 1 in 1000 not every 1 in 17000 and that makes it pretty damn common. Also, transgenderism isn't a mental disorder, it is quite possibly the result of this in a smaller degree......you not physically seeing it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...however, have you ever seen a female that you had to wonder if they were male or female? there is a reason for that...and it isn't their way of dressing.

Health & Baby

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www.webmd.com

 

[NotreDame]

Captain



But a majority does

So if the majority (or even vast majority) of people, agree that someone with a PhD is entitled to be addressed as "Doctor", and if that person so wishes that form of address, it is wrong to use another.



We're not talking about something objective like a mathematical proof here, we're talking about something subjective, so it does.



At least I posses one.



And is subjective, so the views of the majority outweigh those of the minority.



Morality is subjective.



The subjective majority view.



Yes it does since adherence to that "rule" is subjective.




Yes there is. It's called the majority view, and is subjective.

We're not talking about something objective like a mathematical proof here, we're talking about something subjective, so it does.

And that’s exactly why it isn’t “wrong.” And that’s exactly why people are afforded the freedom to make up their own mind and do something different.

So if the majority (or even vast majority) of people, agree that someone with a PhD is entitled to be addressed as "Doctor", and if that person so wishes that form of address, it is wrong to use another.

Oh yeah? Wrong and right is a popularity contest? Really? That worked out well for the Jews in Nazi Germany. Women in early America and blacks thrived under this popularity contest of right and wrong.

Whether it is right or wrong isn’t based on a popularity contest and it isn’t logical to think so.

 

[Rich2018]

And that’s exactly why it isn’t “wrong.” And that’s exactly why people are afforded the freedom to make up their own mind and do something different.

No it's exactly why it is

There is no objectivity like a mathematical rule
So whether something is "right" or "wrong" - like a grammatical convention - is decided by common usage
ie: what the majority thing

Unless you think it's OK for us to write with in our own personal languages with our own personal spelling and grammar rules

How about live our lives according to our own laws and rules ?
That practice fell out of favor when the age of Barbarism replaced the age of Savagery.

Oh yeah? Wrong and right is a popularity contest? Really?

Yes

That worked out well for the Jews in Nazi Germany.

Same as the victims of Charles Manson. And like Manson, the Nazis were put on trial (after their defeat in WWII) and convicted/punished.

Women in early America and blacks thrived under this popularity contest of right and wrong.

Morality is constantly changing. The founding fathers condoned slavery (as the Bible does)
In the USA, homosexuality was criminalized until the 1960's. Today gay marriage is legal - a practice unthinkable 100 years ago.

Whether it is right or wrong isn’t based on a popularity contest and it isn’t logical to think so.

Yes it is

Today many of us eat meat, but future generations might find the practice of raising animals in order to wear their skins and eat their flesh, totally abhorrent.

 

[NotreDame]

No it's exactly why it is

There is no objectivity like a mathematical rule
So whether something is "right" or "wrong" - like a grammatical convention - is decided by common usage
ie: what the majority thing

Unless you think it's OK for us to write with in our own personal languages with our own personal spelling and grammar rules

How about live our lives according to our own laws and rules ?
That practice fell out of favor when the age of Barbarism replaced the age of Savagery.



Yes



Same as the victims of Charles Manson. And like Manson, the Nazis were put on trial (after their defeat in WWII) and convicted/punished.



Morality is constantly changing. The founding fathers condoned slavery (as the Bible does)
In the USA, homosexuality was criminalized until the 1960's. Today gay marriage is legal - a practice unthinkable 100 years ago.



Yes it is

Today many of us eat meat, but future generations might find the practice of raising animals in order to wear their skins and eat their flesh, totally abhorrent.

That’s right, there isn’t any objectivity to asserting someone or some conduct is “wrong” or “right” by virtue of the fact it isn’t objective.

Hence, you cannot demonstrate as true someone or some action is wrong or right. Why? Because it cannot be objectively established and is completely subjective. Knowing the difference between objective and subjective further illuminates why something that isn’t objective or cannot be shown to be objective cannot be shown to be “true.”

Hence, your claims of “wrong,” not being able to be shown to be true, is your mere opinion, your “I said so” which isn’t superior to anyone else’s “I said so.”

 

[Rich2018]

That’s right, there isn’t any objectivity to asserting someone or some conduct is “wrong” or “right” by virtue of the fact it isn’t objective.

Hence, you cannot demonstrate as true someone or some action is wrong or right....

Yes you can

Because of common usage

That way, we can say if a word is spelled correctly or a sentence is formed correctly

No-one owns words and languages and spelling, grammatical rules change over time - indeed spelling and grammar can vary between countries speaking the same language, at the same time.

So what counts as "correct" ?
The answer is in consensus opinion. (although certain mathematical conventions/practices/models are universal and don't change).

Why? Because it cannot be objectively established and is completely subjective.

No, see above.

Knowing the difference between objective and subjective further illuminates why something that isn’t objective or cannot be shown to be objective cannot be shown to be “true.”

Incorrect - see above.

Hence, your claims of “wrong,” not being able to be shown to be true, is your mere opinion, your “I said so” which isn’t superior to anyone else’s “I said so.”

Not just one opinion, but consensus opinion.

 

[ClaraD]

Other than him invoking God (which, of course, is his right), I agree with this.

Virginia high court rules for teacher who won't use transgender students' pronouns

The northern Virginia gym teacher said he would not refer to transgender students by the pronouns they use, citing his religious convictions.

www.nbcnews.com

No one should be fired for calling a he a he, even if she prefers to be called a she.

I thought about this for awhile.....and this is likely properly decided...why? Because speech cannot be compelled. Can a person lose their job? yeah, jobs aren't guaranteed....but can a person be forced to use what someone else wants you to use to refer to them? Nope, that would be considered compelled speech.

 

[Rich2018]

I thought about this for awhile.....and this is likely properly decided...why? Because speech cannot be compelled. Can a person lose their job? yeah, jobs aren't guaranteed....but can a person be forced to use what someone else wants you to use to refer to them? Nope, that would be considered compelled speech.

The threat of losing your job, is not inconsiderable "force".

 

[ClaraD]

The threat of losing your job, is not inconsiderable "force".

he can get a teaching job anywhere...they aren't in short supply.

 

[Rich2018]

he can get a teaching job anywhere...they aren't in short supply.

OK, even if that was the case, what about people who cannot ?

 

[ClaraD]

OK, even if that was the case, what about people who cannot ?

who cannot what? Find another teaching job? Usually that means that they are pretty pathetic at their job.

 

[Roadvirus]

I thought about this for awhile.....and this is likely properly decided...why? Because speech cannot be compelled. Can a person lose their job? yeah, jobs aren't guaranteed....but can a person be forced to use what someone else wants you to use to refer to them? Nope, that would be considered compelled speech.

Besides which such things could get ridiculous. For example, a student could demand to be addressed as "Lord [insert surname]" or whatever.

 

[Rich2018]

who cannot what? Find another teaching job? Usually that means that they are pretty pathetic at their job.

Or live in an area where there's limited teaching opportunities ?

Or maybe they're over 60 and find it hard to get another job ?

Or maybe they have tenure in a teaching job, and stand to lose a lot of what they've worked hard for ?

Or maybe the have a family to support and a mortgage to meet ?

Or maybe they're not in a teaching job at all but something else and live in an area of high unemployment ?

Are you a teacher ? If not, you've no idea of what you're talking about do you ?
You've never had a job have you? Much less a career, a mortgage, a family...

So stop your ignorant comments until you know what the hell you're talking about.

 

[Aristaeus]

Look, transwomen are men and transmen are women, but pronouns are not based on biology (we call ships and cars she all the time). Pronouns are masculine and feminine, not male and female.

Sure, using she for a transwoman with a beard and lumberjack shirt might result in some cognitive dissonance, but for most feminine-looking transwomen the use of she should feel pretty natural even to someone like me who is gender critical.

 

[jotathought]

Other than him invoking God (which, of course, is his right), I agree with this.

Virginia high court rules for teacher who won't use transgender students' pronouns

The northern Virginia gym teacher said he would not refer to transgender students by the pronouns they use, citing his religious convictions.

www.nbcnews.com

No one should be fired for calling a he a he, even if she prefers to be called a she.

Why should anyone be expecting to adhere to "pronoun" rules when pronouns can't be definitely defined? I see he / she being the pronouns, and if those opposed to this can't come up with a definitive list (as opposed to fluid list) of pronouns ... then .. **** YOU He/she

 

[ClaraD]

Or live in an area where there's limited teaching opportunities ?

Or maybe they're over 60 and find it hard to get another job ?

Or maybe they have tenure in a teaching job, and stand to lose a lot of what they've worked hard for ?

Or maybe the have a family to support and a mortgage to meet ?

Or maybe they're not in a teaching job at all but something else and live in an area of high unemployment ?

Are you a teacher ? If not, you've no idea of what you're talking about do you ?
You've never had a job have you? Much less a career, a mortgage, a family...

So stop your ignorant comments until you know what the hell you're talking about.

I know 5 teachers and have a professional relationship with them. 3 are professors....one at Princeton another was working at Oxford, but he is still with Oxford, but doing online only now....he came back to the states and he is a rather young professor. One works at a local university in South Carolina and another works as a public school teacher....the last one is also a public school teacher, but has recently went to online only as he said it is more lucrative and he enjoys being at home more.
There are tons of options when it comes to teaching....so, I don't buy it.

 

[bomberfox]

Good to see the court is protecting this guy from the snowflakes.

Its good you define yourself by what you are against.

 

[bomberfox]

Look, transwomen are men and transmen are women, but pronouns are not based on biology (we call ships and cars she all the time). Pronouns are masculine and feminine, not male and female.

Sure, using she for a transwoman with a beard and lumberjack shirt might result in some cognitive dissonance, but for most feminine-looking transwomen the use of she should feel pretty natural even to someone like me who is gender critical.

But you wouldnt recognize them as a woman and no TERFs dont recognize any trans women but hey you guys got the BBC to go after stonewall, imploding everyone’s rights with your nonsense. You guys call Katie Montgomery a man like all the time. Ive read a bunch of “gender critical” stuff from many sources. They do not ever differentiate. Way to go Glinner.

 

[Rich2018]

I know 5 teachers and have a professional relationship with them. 3 are professors....one at Princeton another was working at Oxford, but he is still with Oxford, but doing online only now....he came back to the states and he is a rather young professor.

A "professional" relationship, does that mean you're a fellow teacher or a student ?

One works at a local university in South Carolina and another works as a public school teacher....the last one is also a public school teacher, but has recently went to online only as he said it is more lucrative and he enjoys being at home more.
There are tons of options when it comes to teaching....so, I don't buy it.

Have you ever spoken to a teacher who's been forced to resign and look for another job and how they felt about it ?

 

[ClaraD]

A "professional" relationship, does that mean you're a fellow teacher or a student ?



Have you ever spoken to a teacher who's been forced to resign and look for another job and how they felt about it ?

I am a contractor. We live in the same town and I do work for them on their homes. I rent my office from one of them. Teachers mostly belong to unions....if they are forced to resign, it is because they violated the terms of their contract or conditions of their employment.

 

[Rich2018]

I am a contractor. We live in the same town and I do work for them on their homes. I rent my office from one of them. Teachers mostly belong to unions....if they are forced to resign, it is because they violated the terms of their contract or conditions of their employment.

Then you don't have a "professional" relationship with them

A professional relationship is a peer-to-peer relationship, between two educators in this case.

 

[ClaraD]

Then you don't have a "professional" relationship with them

A professional relationship is a peer-to-peer relationship, between two educators in this case.

No, a professional relationship, means it is exclusively business....not a friendship.