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Vietnam

Gardener said:
Let's see -- a bunch of men about my age or a little older got drafted and sent to a war they didn't create, and got killed.
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The soldiers never create the war. In this case, it was created by North Vietnam. If they had stayed on their side of the border, it never would have happened.

Gardener said:
A bunch of us at home didn't want them going off to this war because so many were getting killed and the price was way too much considering none of us knew why the hell we were there in the first place..
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And who assigned you to be their keeper?

Sorry, rant time here. But if it is one thing that to me is a perfect example of the "Nanny State Mentality", it is thinking like this. What gives you or anybody else the right to makde decisions on me and my life? I think it is very arrogant to try and inject your own twisted kind of political nonsense onto others, thinking that you have the right to tell them that they can't do something that is legal and done of their own free will.

And when you say "none of us knew why". what you really mean is "I do not know why", because to many of us that choose to join the military, we know exactly why we are doing something.

This to me is a perfect example of the arrogance of the hand-wringing weapy political Left. They scream against war, say there is no reason for it, that it should not be going on, yadda-yadda-yadda. But funny, where were all those people when President Clinton sent our boys to former Tugoslavia and Somalia? The silence from the "Anti-War Left" was deafening.

And BTW, don't try to make me into some kind of political hack here, because I supported President Clinton in both of those operations. And I thought it was a shame that he pulled them out, which has probably caused tens of thousands of deaths in Somalia. And I felt as much disgust for the Republicans who attacked him for our presence then as I do for Democrats that do the same thing now. Little disgusts me more then useing our military as some kind of political punching bag.
 
Oozlefinch said:
The soldiers never create the war. In this case, it was created by North Vietnam. If they had stayed on their side of the border, it never would have happened.



And who assigned you to be their keeper?

Sorry, rant time here. But if it is one thing that to me is a perfect example of the "Nanny State Mentality", it is thinking like this. What gives you or anybody else the right to makde decisions on me and my life? I think it is very arrogant to try and inject your own twisted kind of political nonsense onto others, thinking that you have the right to tell them that they can't do something that is legal and done of their own free will.

And when you say "none of us knew why". what you really mean is "I do not know why", because to many of us that choose to join the military, we know exactly why we are doing something.

This to me is a perfect example of the arrogance of the hand-wringing weapy political Left. They scream against war, say there is no reason for it, that it should not be going on, yadda-yadda-yadda. But funny, where were all those people when President Clinton sent our boys to former Tugoslavia and Somalia? The silence from the "Anti-War Left" was deafening.

And BTW, don't try to make me into some kind of political hack here, because I supported President Clinton in both of those operations. And I thought it was a shame that he pulled them out, which has probably caused tens of thousands of deaths in Somalia. And I felt as much disgust for the Republicans who attacked him for our presence then as I do for Democrats that do the same thing now. Little disgusts me more then useing our military as some kind of political punching bag.
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Wanted to address this paragraph in particular.

Not really. Most reasonable liberals recognize that war is sometimes necessary.

As for the "silence" from the anti-war left with regards to the Balkans operations and Somalia? Our involvement in the Balkans involved pretty much solely air power for a reason - Clinton knew he'd be in rough political waters if he wanted to wage a ground war. As long as we suffered few or no casualties people wouldn't complain. Somalia? Nobody knew jack **** about our involvement in Somalia until after Black Hawk Down, given that it was a JSOC operation. Once people actually found out about it in October of '93, hell yeah there were people who were up in arms about why we had troops in some African ****hole country nobody could locate on a map.
 
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To be fair, even the most lefist politician (in the eyes of the right) was ready to cook some goose after 9/11. It takes some in your face to get them there, but once there we're pretty much united. The armchair quarterbacks at both extremes are never going to be on anyone's side but their own - that's why they always run for the echo chamber.

Most folks want to avoid war, to what cost is a spectrum. Most veterans of any war HATE war, but our reasons for being there in the first place lead us back if needed.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Wanted to address this paragraph in particular.

Not really. Most reasonable liberals recognize that war is sometimes necessary.

As for the "silence" from the anti-war left with regards to the Balkans operations and Somalia? Our involvement in the Balkans involved pretty much solely air power for a reason - Clinton knew he'd be in rough political waters if he wanted to wage a ground war. As long as we suffered few or no casualties people wouldn't complain. Somalia? Nobody knew jack **** about our involvement in Somalia until after Black Hawk Down, given that it was a JSOC operation. Once people actually found out about it in October of '93, hell yeah there were people who were up in arms about why we had troops in some African ****hole country nobody could locate on a map.
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How could anybody not know about those operations? We had been in Somalia for a year prior to that. I had known about it for a year. And sorry, I am not sure if claims of ignorance like this is a kind of unintentional amnesia, or trypical of the ignorance of many people in this country (not talking about you in particular here). I was paying attention to US troops in Lebanon prior to October 1983, I had been paying attention to US soldiers in Panama prior to Just Cause, it amazes me how little most people seem to know about where our troops are and why.

In fact, I bet that most people have no idea that we had ground troops over there, and that we still have troops over there to this day. But where is the "Peace Protestors", and why are they not screaming to bring our troops home from Bosnia? I bet most of that has nothing to do with "war" or "peace". but politics. And when President Clinton was lobbing bombs and cruise missiles at Iraq and Afghanistan, there was still silence.

In fact, the Anti-war crowd has been surprisingly silent the last 3 years. Why is that? We are still loosing people in Afghanistan, but where are the Cindy Sheehans and the Code Pink protests? Because at one time they happened just about every week, and now you almost never hear from them.

I find that most people are horribly ignorant of military operations, where, when, and why. And far to many project that ignorance and show it when they go on about things they do not know or understand. Far to many times it is all political coprolite, and it disgusts me.
 
clownboy said:
Most folks want to avoid war, to what cost is a spectrum. Most veterans of any war HATE war, but our reasons for being there in the first place lead us back if needed.
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And this is so true. I have spent far to many years away from my family, in some of the biggest s**tholes in the world.

But that was my job, and I signed up to do it willingly (a total of 5 times now). I hate war, but I also recognize that the alternative can be worse. I see things like what happened in Bosnia, Somalia, Iraq, Darfur, and it makes me want to cry. And there is little that will get me in a mood to go and destroy people then the "G word". Not even 9-11 got me anywhere near as mad as what Serbia did to the Bosnians, and Iraq did to the Kurds. And what Sudan is doing in Darfur to this day.
 
Navy Pride said:
Do you really want me to go back and post the comments of some of your left wing friend that said it did not happen at all...............Better yet, do your homework....do it yourself.......
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Right ok.. You might also wanna do your research because i already addressed this point... (Just like those "stats i pulled out of my ass") :roll:
 
Oozlefinch said:
The soldiers never create the war. In this case, it was created by North Vietnam. If they had stayed on their side of the border, it never would have happened.



And who assigned you to be their keeper?

Sorry, rant time here. But if it is one thing that to me is a perfect example of the "Nanny State Mentality", it is thinking like this. What gives you or anybody else the right to makde decisions on me and my life? I think it is very arrogant to try and inject your own twisted kind of political nonsense onto others, thinking that you have the right to tell them that they can't do something that is legal and done of their own free will.

And when you say "none of us knew why". what you really mean is "I do not know why", because to many of us that choose to join the military, we know exactly why we are doing something.

This to me is a perfect example of the arrogance of the hand-wringing weapy political Left. They scream against war, say there is no reason for it, that it should not be going on, yadda-yadda-yadda. But funny, where were all those people when President Clinton sent our boys to former Tugoslavia and Somalia? The silence from the "Anti-War Left" was deafening.

And BTW, don't try to make me into some kind of political hack here, because I supported President Clinton in both of those operations. And I thought it was a shame that he pulled them out, which has probably caused tens of thousands of deaths in Somalia. And I felt as much disgust for the Republicans who attacked him for our presence then as I do for Democrats that do the same thing now. Little disgusts me more then useing our military as some kind of political punching bag.
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Hint 1: Some(many) of us liberals disaproved of Clinton's military actions. Others felt that those cases where appropriate.

Hint 2: Clinton's military actions where very disimilar to Vietnam. Surprise, different actions have different reactions.

Hint 3: Very few people feel war is never neccessary. I think most people judge wars by the situation, not like you and who is president.
 
Redress said:
Hint 3: Very few people feel war is never neccessary. I think most people judge wars by the situation, not like you and who is president.
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You had better go back and re-read what I said again.

I supported the actions of President Clinton. And I am a Republican. How in the world do you make this out to be that I support them based on who is President?

In the early 1990's, I butted heads with my father-in-law many times, because he opposed these operations, and I supported them. I think you do not understand a thing I said.

And sorry, I see something very different. Where have the protestors been the last 3 years? President Bush used armed drones, and they were screaming bloody murder. President Obama uses them, and not much is heard.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Ahh playing obtuse....


This little gem where you compared them to terrorists.






Proudly I might add....
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Obviously, it escaped you that the cartoon is about the manipulation of youth for the purpose of fighting wars for US hegemony.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Actually I supported in both those cases Non judicial punishment, I didn't have a screaming temper tantrum calling it a war crime suggesting these soldiers lives should be ruined over stupidity.
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Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans - CBS News


ReverendHellh0und: So you put these soldiers in the same category of "sadistic, cruel, and, evil", for the "crime" of snapping a picture?
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ReverendHellh0und: I think your faux-outrage is misplaced on your brothers and sisters who at great mortal risk, do whatever it takes to minimize civillian casualties.
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.......................
 
apdst said:
Your son accepted a certain amount of risk when he enlsited. Serving in the armed forces is risky by nature. He also enlsited to follow orders from his chain of command.
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How does that negate the responsibility of his commanders not to place him in harms way unnecessarily?
 
Oozlefinch said:
That is your take on it. That is not how most of us view it.
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You mean most of those who still defend wars for US hegemony. No surprise there.
 
apdst said:
No, it wasn't mentioned in First Blood. Be careful with your personal attacks.
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Starting about 0:20



You should be careful what you post as well.
 
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The US never intended on winning the war in Vietnam. This is why there was such oppostion to it. Men were sent to die there simply to play a part in relieving the tension between the US and Russian Cold War.

The Cuban Missile crisis brought the two countries to the brink of nuclear war and Kennedy knew an relief valve was needed. That would be Viet Nam.

America was not for free elections in Vietnam unless the one they wanted got elected. But these elections were determined by the Peace Accords in Geneva. Diem in the South refused them. The US supported him. Thus you have deeper involvement.

All done under the banner of 'freedom' of course. If we don't fight them there we will be fighting them on our own beaches was the cry.

So, 60,000 died for a relief valve. For nothing. We lost anyway. The world didn't become communist. Perhaps you should now watch a few of Jane Fondas movies. They are pretty good.

Quantrill
 
Redress said:
SO are you right wingers at the funerals of soldiers:



Using your logic, you right wingers hate to admit you hate our troops.
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those fools aren't right wingers, they are just nutso cookobanannas.


in fact, he was a democrat. :prof


Democratic Party
Phelps has run in various Kansas Democratic Party primaries five times, but has never won. These included races for governor in 1990, 1994, and 1998, receiving about 15 percent of the vote in 1998.[33] In the 1992 Democratic Party primary for U.S. Senate, Phelps received 31 percent of the vote.[34] Phelps ran for mayor of Topeka in 1993[35][36] and 1997.[37]
Support for Al Gore
Phelps supported Al Gore in the 1988 Democratic Party presidential primary election.[38] In his 1984 Senate race, Gore opposed a "gay bill of rights" and stated that homosexuality was not something that "society should affirm".[39] Phelps has stated that he supported Gore because of these earlier comments.[40] According to Phelps, members of the Westboro Baptist Church helped run Gore's 1988 campaign in Kansas. Phelps' son, Fred Phelps Jr., hosted a Gore fundraiser at his home in Topeka and was a Gore delegate to the 1988 Democratic National Convention.[4] Gore spokesman Dag Vega declined to comment, saying "We are not dignifying those stories with a response."[41] -from wiki
 
Catawba said:
Obviously, it escaped you that the cartoon is about the manipulation of youth for the purpose of fighting wars for US hegemony.
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Right.... More like a snobbish cartoon belittling the troops for thier own agenda. You fool no one, kid.
 
Catawba said:
.......................
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And there you go with blatant lies, please link to those quotes, is there a reason you failed to link them? perhaps because in those same threads I supported article 15's? You really have some nerve with your blatant disonesty, kid.
 
Quantrill said:
The US never intended on winning the war in Vietnam. This is why there was such oppostion to it. Men were sent to die there simply to play a part in relieving the tension between the US and Russian Cold War.

The Cuban Missile crisis brought the two countries to the brink of nuclear war and Kennedy knew an relief valve was needed. That would be Viet Nam.

America was not for free elections in Vietnam unless the one they wanted got elected. But these elections were determined by the Peace Accords in Geneva. Diem in the South refused them. The US supported him. Thus you have deeper involvement.

All done under the banner of 'freedom' of course. If we don't fight them there we will be fighting them on our own beaches was the cry.

So, 60,000 died for a relief valve. For nothing. We lost anyway. The world didn't become communist. Perhaps you should now watch a few of Jane Fondas movies. They are pretty good.

Quantrill
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Why did they take it out on the troops? That is my question......
 
Oozlefinch said:
And this is so true. I have spent far to many years away from my family, in some of the biggest s**tholes in the world.

But that was my job, and I signed up to do it willingly (a total of 5 times now). I hate war, but I also recognize that the alternative can be worse. I see things like what happened in Bosnia, Somalia, Iraq, Darfur, and it makes me want to cry. And there is little that will get me in a mood to go and destroy people then the "G word". Not even 9-11 got me anywhere near as mad as what Serbia did to the Bosnians, and Iraq did to the Kurds. And what Sudan is doing in Darfur to this day.
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Thank you for your service..........The left trys to say we like war....Well that is a bold face lie........No onel ikes wars, especially us who have seen our shipmates die in one........
 
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