Vietnam

[tecoyah]

Why did they take it out on the troops? That is my question......

Vets coming home from Iraq/Afghanistan, are treated far worse than Viet Nam vets ever were.....by the whole damn unappreciative country, as well as the VA.

" Your theme by title is limited to a short time frame: the homecoming experience.
Vets were often met in airports by protestors, and that is the substance of most
of the stories that surround this particular post war experience.

If a vet did not experience protestors at airports, and most did not, then the
homecoming story is more limited to how they were treated by family and
friends and strangers."
The Vietnam Conflict: Coming Home, by Bill Hunt

 

[tecoyah]

Thank you for your service..........The left trys to say we like war....Well that is a bold face lie........No onel ikes wars, especially us who have seen our shipmates die in one........

As you love to call me a Lefty....let me state quite clearly.

I never have, and never will claim anyone likes war, but I am sure you have reason for the inaccurate generalization.

 

[Navy Pride]

Vets coming home from Iraq/Afghanistan, are treated far worse than Viet Nam vets ever were.....by the whole damn unappreciative country, as well as the VA.

" Your theme by title is limited to a short time frame: the homecoming experience.
Vets were often met in airports by protestors, and that is the substance of most
of the stories that surround this particular post war experience.

If a vet did not experience protestors at airports, and most did not, then the
homecoming story is more limited to how they were treated by family andfriends and strangers."


The Vietnam Conflict: Coming Home, by Bill Hunt

All I have to say to you is what planet are you from? It makes me so happy to see our troops treated like heroes now...........That has nothing to do with Nam Except people like you are ashamed of how troops were treated then.........

 

[apdst]

How does that negate the responsibility of his commanders not to place him in harms way unnecessarily?

His commanders are obligated to follow the orders they are given by their elected civilian leaders. Just like your son is obligated to follow the orders given to him by his commanders and you're no one to judge what is, or isnt' necessary danger.

A good soldier says, "yes sir!" and does his damnedest to carry out his mission, bringing back as many of his men as he can.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Veterans should not have the right of free speech?

No, we do not. We gave that up when we joined the military.

And yes, other parts have been taken since then. For example, President Clinton threw multiple "Blanket Gag Orders" at the military, and many of them have since become accepted part of standing military orders. For example, I can no longer write to a news paper or call a radio show and make statements critical against the President or his policies. And this continues to this day. A lot of people acted shocked when Military Clergy in the military were forbidden from commenting on certain government policies. This is nothing new, such "Executive Gag Orders" have gone out countless times, forbidding Chaplains from talking about things from abortion to homosexuals. And these orders have extended to the members of the military as well, forbidding them form participating in "letter writing campaigns" to political officials.

I am sorry, but you are a civilian, so probably have never cared about such things before in your life, so you never knew they existed. To us, they are simply a routine part of our life.

How does that negate the responsibility of his commanders not to place him in harms way unnecessarily?

That is the purpose of the military. It is our job to go into harm's way, so hopefully others will not have to.

And oh how I love that last word you put in there. "Unnessarily". What does that mean? Well, it means almost anything you want it to mean.

How here is the dirty truth of military operations: Military commanders are suppposed to expend the lives of those that serve under them. In fact, if they do not do so then they are in dereliction of their duties. But the decision must be done as to accomplish the goal of the mission, or to save the lives of others.

Sometimes military commanders make hard decisions in moments. You send out a platoon, in the hopes that it gets ambushed by a company sized unit. Yes, you may loose the entire platoon, but following back that company sized unit may lead you to a Battalion that you can then eliminate with much lighter losses. And that kind of decision happens all the time. Ask any grunt about "Single Envelopment Drills".

But it is our job to go into harms way, often unneccessarily. We were heading down freeways into a hurricane not to many years ago, because people needed help. Our pilots took off to do mission after mission to try and cool a reactor that had melted down, each and every mission taking higher and higher doses of radiation. And one of the leading research organizations is USAMRIID, which does things like rushes personnel to Africa whenever there is an ourbreak of something like Ebola.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Thank you for your service..........The left trys to say we like war....Well that is a bold face lie........No onel ikes wars, especially us who have seen our shipmates die in one........

And thank you for yours.

I am actually part of a tradition in my family. 2 of my uncles served during Vietnam (one in the Marines, the other in the National Guard). And both grandfathers did, one in the Army in Europe, the other in the Pacific in the Navy (USS Suwanee CVE-27, 13 Battle Stars). And I have had members who served going back to 1812, including that war, the War of Northern Agression (said tongue and cheek, my paternal family at that time was in Georgia), and in various Indian Wars.

I grew up with a deep feeling of commitment to my country, and made the decision early on that I would do what I could to give back. And for my life I have tried to do exactly that. I try to change the world one person at a time, starting with myself. I do not do it by marching around with signs and screaming at others like a spoiled child, calling those I do not agree with names.

 

[tecoyah]

All I have to say to you is what planet are you from? It makes me so happy to see our troops treated like heroes now...........That has nothing to do with Nam Except people like you are ashamed of how troops were treated then.........

WTF are you on about....typical Navy Pride.

I clearly state our troops are being treated worse by the population and the VA....and you debase me as unpatriotic?


Ignore time....again

 

[tecoyah]

"Soldiers Face Neglect, Frustration At Army's Top Medical Facility

Staff Sgt. John Daniel Shannon has spent more than two years as a patient at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. The former sniper's skull was shattered in a gun battle in Iraq, and he has post-traumatic stress disorder. With him is his 6-year-old son, Drake.
Staff Sgt. John Daniel Shannon has spent more than two years as a patient at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. The former sniper's skull was shattered in a gun battle in Iraq, and he has post-traumatic stress disorder. With him is his 6-year-old son, Drake. (Photos By Michel Du Cille -- The Washington Post)

Behind the door of Army Spec. Jeremy Duncan's room, part of the wall is torn and hangs in the air, weighted down with black mold. When the wounded combat engineer stands in his shower and looks up, he can see the bathtub on the floor above through a rotted hole. The entire building, constructed between the world wars, often smells like greasy carry-out. Signs of neglect are everywhere: mouse droppings, belly-up cockroaches, stained carpets, cheap mattresses.

This is the world of Building 18, not the kind of place where Duncan expected to recover when he was evacuated to Walter Reed Army Medical Center from Iraq last February with a broken neck and a shredded left ear, nearly dead from blood loss. But the old lodge, just outside the gates of the hospital and five miles up the road from the White House, has housed hundreds of maimed soldiers recuperating from injuries suffered in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The common perception of Walter Reed is of a surgical hospital that shines as the crown jewel of military medicine. But 5 1/2 years of sustained combat have transformed the venerable 113-acre institution into something else entirely -- a holding ground for physically and psychologically damaged outpatients. Almost 700 of them -- the majority soldiers, with some Marines -- have been released from hospital beds but still need treatment or are awaiting bureaucratic decisions before being discharged or returned to active duty.

They suffer from brain injuries, severed arms and legs, organ and back damage, and various degrees of post-traumatic stress. Their legions have grown so exponentially -- they outnumber hospital patients at Walter Reed 17 to 1 -- that they take up every available bed on post and spill into dozens of nearby hotels and apartments leased by the Army. The average stay is 10 months, but some have been stuck there for as long as two years. "

Soldiers Face Neglect, Frustration At Army's Top Medical Facility

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

How the government treats it's vets is a tragedy, however it is irrelevant to the point regarding how nasty some anti-war douchebags can be towards veterans, especially during this war.

 

[Wiggen]

But...but...but...you said it didn't happen at all!

No, I didn't. I said it didn't happen to me or to anybody I served with. I said it was quite possible there may have been isolated instances of it occuring. Perhaps you could relate your personal experiences as a Vietnam veteran?

 

[Navy Pride]

No, I didn't. I said it didn't happen to me or to anybody I served with. I said it was quite possible there may have been isolated instances of it occuring. Perhaps you could relate your personal experiences as a Vietnam veteran?

They were not isolated incidents.....They happened outside most major bases......They happened outside the PSNS in Bremerton............

 

[Navy Pride]

WTF are you on about....typical Navy Pride.

I clearly state our troops are being treated worse by the population and the VA....and you debase me as unpatriotic?


Ignore time....again

I hear you saying that the guys coming back now were treated worse then the guys coming back from Nam.......That is a lie.....

 

[Navy Pride]

And thank you for yours.

I am actually part of a tradition in my family. 2 of my uncles served during Vietnam (one in the Marines, the other in the National Guard). And both grandfathers did, one in the Army in Europe, the other in the Pacific in the Navy (USS Suwanee CVE-27, 13 Battle Stars). And I have had members who served going back to 1812, including that war, the War of Northern Agression (said tongue and cheek, my paternal family at that time was in Georgia), and in various Indian Wars.

I grew up with a deep feeling of commitment to my country, and made the decision early on that I would do what I could to give back. And for my life I have tried to do exactly that. I try to change the world one person at a time, starting with myself. I do not do it by marching around with signs and screaming at others like a spoiled child, calling those I do not agree with names.

Sounds to me that your family is very patriotic......My father retired from the Navy after 27 and my brother served 4 years rest in peace for both.........

I believe in the right to protest peaceably but it really hurts me to see our left wing friends at their protests burn the American flag or even worse burn our troops in effigy.......

 

[clownboy]

To go back to the treatment of vets, specifically the VA hospitals - things are so much different and better now. Yes. I'm aware of the Walter Reed problem, but that's just not edemic to the system anymore. Heck, back in 70s the VA facilities were all worse than the Walter Reed example. And now, at least you can get treatment for PTSD from the VA, couldn't get that back then, vets formed their own groups to try to deal.

And here is a good time to thank our president. Obama, all through his political career (short though it was) has supported veteran's issues. At every turn he voted for more funding, for keeping the promise, for more support.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

They were not isolated incidents.....They happened outside most major bases......They happened outside the PSNS in Bremerton............

If it was a major incidents that were not isolated then there should be well documented cases and sources to prove this NP

 

[Quantrill]

Why did they take it out on the troops? That is my question......

Because the troops represented the country. The distinction of 'I am against the war but for the troops' didn't exist. The soldiers represented the country. And when protest marches got violent, troops were sent in.

Used to also, there was not distinction between the government and the people when you went to war. When you went to war, you went whole hawg. You were as much against the people as the governement. Because the government represented the people

But now, the US draws a distinction when it goes to war. It tells a country we are not against you, just your government. What a stupid idea. But they do it. So now, if you're against the war, you still have to say you're for the soldiers.

Quantrill

 

[apdst]

Because the troops represented the country. The distinction of 'I am against the war but for the troops' didn't exist. The soldiers represented the country. And when protest marches got violent, troops were sent in.

Used to also, there was not distinction between the government and the people when you went to war. When you went to war, you went whole hawg. You were as much against the people as the governement. Because the government represented the people

But now, the US draws a distinction when it goes to war. It tells a country we are not against you, just your government. What a stupid idea. But they do it. So now, if you're against the war, you still have to say you're for the soldiers.

Quantrill

It doesn't exist, now.

 

[Oozlefinch]

"Soldiers Face Neglect, Frustration At Army's Top Medical Facility

And you are bringing back an incident that over 5 years old?

There is nothing new here. But most people really do not understand what this was all about, and why.

Building 18 was originally a civilian motel, built in the late 1930's. By the 1980's, Walter-Reed was having problems housing the students for it's medical training program, and had been requesting permission to build a new barracks. Seen as a cost saving measure, the DoD refused the plan for a new building, and instead bought the run down motel instead. And for a decade, this was the barracks for the student company. Funds had been requested for years to remodel and update it, but at the time the DoD was spending a lot of money already for maintenance because of BRAC (base closures), so none was available for what by this time was essentially an unused barracks building.

And this is absolutely nothing new. Go around pretty much any military base, and you see dozens of "mothballed" buildings. For many years, Building 18 was no different.

Then in late 2005, the facilities at Walter-Reed reached their capacity, so they did fast repairs to put it back in operation. Multiple times over the next 2 years, Commanders and other organizations tried to get the funding to refurbish the building, but the funds never seem to be available. So by 2007, it became a scandal.

Now I am going to let you and others know the truth of what was going on here.

People have to realize however, that situations like this have little to nothing to do with the military itself. The maintenance of buildings such as this are not actually handled by the military, but by civilians. Many people question me on this, but here is a great example.

At Fort Bliss, there are a total of 3 companies that handle the housing and barracks. First you have the Married quarters, that is all handled by the real estate management company Balfour-Beatty. They handle all aspects of the married quarters, from painting and repairs to ensuring they are kept clean and cleaned prior to new people moving in. They handle every step in this process, the military has absolutely nothing to do with it. And they have a fixed budget, and overages have to go to the DoD for approval.

Then you have the single soldier barracks. Now these barracks used to be managed by the First Sergeant of each building, but this is no longer the case. Now all maintenance and repairs must be routed through CEMA (C E McKenzie & Associates), a civilian building management company. Now when the First Sergeant ran things, he had an annual budget to work off of for his building. Now you have CEMA, and they get a budget to manage all of the barracks on post. So if one needs so much work that it taps a lot of the available funds, then the maintenance on other buildings is put off until funds are available. Ane at Fort Blis, this is a constant issue. Because almost every old building has asbestos and lead, and the removal of this is very expensive. And of course, any overages in their budget need to go to the DoD for approval.

Then you have the third company involved, PRIDE Industries. This is the actual company that physically does all repairs and maintenance to the buildings on Fort Bliss. And they also have a fixed budget, and once again, any overages need to be approved by the DoD.

Now finally, you have the DoD. Contrary to what most people think, this is generally not members of the military. It is a bunch of civilian bean counters, who generally could not care less what the actual servicemembers want or need. They have their eyes on the "big picture", something so far above our heads we can't comprehend it. This is why you have Marines living in a condemned temporary building built for WWII. This is why you see Soldiers crammed into barracks that are falling apart, because most of the money is being spent on barracks being built for a unit that will be arriving in another 3-5 years.

And why you have wounded warriors crammed into a ****hole motel that should have been condemned, because the god-damed bean counters thought the better solution 20 years earlier was to buy that ****hole instead of actually building proper barracks in the first place.

I do not know what experience you may have in the military (if any). But trust me here, this is par for the course, and most of us are used to it. We do not like it, but that is how it is when we have "Civilian Management" over the military.

And remember the multiple debates in other threads here about what parts of the military budget go where. Maintenance is normally #2-3 on the list (behind payroll, and bouncing back and forth with Dependent Care). So a gigantic chunk of the budget already goes there. But there is only so much that can be done.

At Fort Bliss, one advantage of the deployments is that it normally leaves 2-4 barracks open since the unit that is normally in them is now overseas. And for the last 10 years, the Army has been taking advantage of that fact and working hard to refurbish all of the buildings. A unit leaves, and they move in to start refurbishing their barracks. At the same time another unit comes back, and they are put into the barracks they just finished refurbishing. This has been going on for 10 years, and the last I heard they have refurbished 75% of the barracks.

And the military is also good at doing some amazing things with barracks. I have lived in a railroad boxcar. I have lived in an Open Bay building that was built in 1950. I have lived in a turn of the century "windowless barracks". I have also lived in a dilapidated office building with a rotting floor that was designed as a temporary office during WWII. No heat, no AC, no hot water, no insulation. But that was temporary, as they were refurbishing the old WWI Naval Hospital as a barracks (which we finally moved into half of it, the other half was still blocked off as an asbestos and lead hazard).

The actual culprit in the vast majority of these cases is not the military itself, but the DoD which controlls their budgets. I know that at my first base we requested for years to have the base theatre and bowling alley fixed (neither had operated for years). And for 3 years we were ignored. Then finally the gym (same building, also with falling apart equipment) had a partial collapse, so they rushed us the money.

Fixed the building, fixed the bowling alley, new gym equipment. Then refused to give us the funds to hire anybody or funds to operate them. So nice rebuilt theatre, no money for movies or staff. Nice rebuilt bowling alley, no money for bowling balls, pins, or somebody to run it.

I think that is what disgusted me the most out of the entire "Building 18 Scandal". That building had been a known problem for years, Commanding General after Commanding General had requested funds repeatedly to fix it, and was ignored. They asked for funds when they realized they would soon have to put people in it, and were ignored. Then finally they did have to put people in it, paid for it from base funds (which meant lack of funding for other facilities on base), and it was still not enough.

And some unionized civilian at DC probably let out a sigh of relief when the DoD threw these CGs under the bus when it all finally broke. Because nobody wanted to look at the funding issues and who had been making the actual funding decisions. It was easier to just sacrifice a few Generals who were going to retire soon anyways.

 

[Quantrill]

It doesn't exist, now.

Of course it does. You hear it all the time from politicians to civilians.

Quantrill

 

[Redress]

They were not isolated incidents.....They happened outside most major bases......They happened outside the PSNS in Bremerton............

I hear you saying that the guys coming back now were treated worse then the guys coming back from Nam.......That is a lie.....

Prove it NP. Prove that Kerry was a traitor. Prove something you claim, just once.

 

[Oozlefinch]

If it was a major incidents that were not isolated then there should be well documented cases and sources to prove this NP

And how do you document them?

Walk around your entire life with a video camera on?

Call the police every time somebody does this to you?

I had a TSA cop see one of the incidents that happened to me at LAX. Guy walked out of his way, bumped into me from behind and almost knocked me over, then called me a rather foul name I will not repeat. In front of my wife and son. TSA guy stopped the jerk, then asked me if I wanted to press any charges. Well, I had a plane to catch and I did not have the time to handle this, and I just said to forget about it. He called on the radio, and as I was given the fast check, I saw him given the "full TSA special" security screening (hopefully with vigerous body cavity search).

This is what puzzles me about statements like this you make. How should I "document" these incidents? I do not participate in political events, I do not live my life in front of cameras, I do not believe in getting law enforcement or lawyers involved in every little aspect of my life. So what should I do next time, place a Citizens Arrest on the individual and call the Police? Will that satisfy your demands for "documentation"?

Sorry, but I have much more important things to do with my life. And they do not cover your silly demands for "documentation".

 

[Thrilla]

And how do you document them?

Walk around your entire life with a video camera on?

Call the police every time somebody does this to you?

I had a TSA cop see one of the incidents that happened to me at LAX. Guy walked out of his way, bumped into me from behind and almost knocked me over, then called me a rather foul name I will not repeat. In front of my wife and son. TSA guy stopped the jerk, then asked me if I wanted to press any charges. Well, I had a plane to catch and I did not have the time to handle this, and I just said to forget about it. He called on the radio, and as I was given the fast check, I saw him given the "full TSA special" security screening (hopefully with vigerous body cavity search).

This is what puzzles me about statements like this you make. How should I "document" these incidents? I do not participate in political events, I do not live my life in front of cameras, I do not believe in getting law enforcement or lawyers involved in every little aspect of my life. So what should I do next time, place a Citizens Arrest on the individual and call the Police? Will that satisfy your demands for "documentation"?

Sorry, but I have much more important things to do with my life. And they do not cover your silly demands for "documentation".

as someone else has alluded to... folks don't get that cell phones cameras haven't always existed...:lol:

it's odd to argue over one specific maltreatment of troops... the broader issue of animosity towards the troops then is far more important.
folks seem to be saying that because spitting incidents are hard or impossible to prove, that somehow means maltreatment didn't exist... it's being used to deny maltreatment.

 

[Wiggen]

They were not isolated incidents.....They happened outside most major bases......They happened outside the PSNS in Bremerton............

Maybe you could provide us some links?

 

[Wiggen]

And how do you document them?

Walk around your entire life with a video camera on?

Call the police every time somebody does this to you?

I had a TSA cop see one of the incidents that happened to me at LAX. Guy walked out of his way, bumped into me from behind and almost knocked me over, then called me a rather foul name I will not repeat. In front of my wife and son. TSA guy stopped the jerk, then asked me if I wanted to press any charges. Well, I had a plane to catch and I did not have the time to handle this, and I just said to forget about it. He called on the radio, and as I was given the fast check, I saw him given the "full TSA special" security screening (hopefully with vigerous body cavity search).

This is what puzzles me about statements like this you make. How should I "document" these incidents? I do not participate in political events, I do not live my life in front of cameras, I do not believe in getting law enforcement or lawyers involved in every little aspect of my life. So what should I do next time, place a Citizens Arrest on the individual and call the Police? Will that satisfy your demands for "documentation"?

Sorry, but I have much more important things to do with my life. And they do not cover your silly demands for "documentation".

That's not what Navy Pride is talking about. He's saying that these things were regular occurrences outside of military bases. If that's the case, then there must have been widespread press coverage of these outrages - and they would be outrages. I'd just like to see one independent verification. Given Navy Pride's history, asking for some documentation seems reasonable.

 

[Oozlefinch]

That's not what Navy Pride is talking about. He's saying that these things were regular occurrences outside of military bases. If that's the case, then there must have been widespread press coverage of these outrages - and they would be outrages. I'd just like to see one independent verification. Given Navy Pride's history, asking for some documentation seems reasonable.

And I am not responding to Navy Pride, but to the large number of individuals that deny that such incidents ever happened.

Yes, such incidents happened. And I think in many cases it has been blown out of proportion. I was spit at exactly one time, the individual aimed at my feet. But there is no denying exactly what the intended meaning was. I have been flipped off, had obsceen remarks shouted at me, even offensive statements and questions screamed at me. Individuals have even purposefully bumped into me, and done other very discourteous things because I was either visibly part of the military or in uniform.

And no, I do not have documentation. Because that is not my purpose in life. I am sure if I want to get some, all I have to do is put my uniform on and go walk by the Occupy Your Arse - Oakland or Berkley sites with somebody with a camera nearby. But I have much more important things to do with my life, thank you very much. And I do not feel the need to provoke a bunch of tards to prove to myself that they are a bunch of tards.