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Vaccines do not kill viruses.

Deuce said:
Can you identify even one virus with a vaccination rate comparable to polio that stayed around in any significant sense, ever in history?
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I take this as a "no" - you can't identify anything close to success in eradicating a coronavirus.
 
Captain Adverse said:
1. It is highly unlikely that simply vaccinating everyone will eliminate a virus, due to both natural mutation and the possibility of other forms of hosts re-transmitting it or a variant to humans, and
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Ikari said:
No, they aren't cures, but they are preventions. And they work on the statistical aggregate of a population. So an individual choosing not to vaccinate is not just making a choice for themselves, but for the entire population. If enough people vaccinate, you can remove a disease from effectiveness.
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Captain Adverse is correct that this SARS-CoV-2 likely won't ever be eradicated. That virus was probably originated from a bat that lived in Wuhan's jungles, and we know from direct observation it can jump between species. We've seen it get transmitted to cats, dogs, minks, tigers, gorillas, and probably others by now. That virus will almost certainly never be caught and eliminated.

Also I'd mention that it's the same case with the flu viruses. Many of the influenza viruses today are progeny of the 1918 virus. In tracing its "genealogy," scientists were able to see that the over the decades the original virus' descendants jumped into pigs and chickens before returning to humans years later. With such broad infectious capacity of influenza, there's just no way for us to prevent or eliminate those virus reserves.

However, Captain Adverse, in your analysis you're failing to consider the value of harm reduction. Just because a risk cannot be 100% eradicated, it does not make the relevant harm reduction strategies useless. I.e., just because we can never eliminate the risk of a building from collapsing, it doesn't mean we should scrap preventative measures such as building codes and structural re-certifications.

It also ignores the stark reality of the situation. There are billions of people on this planet - billions who do not have "primed immune systems" - that are currently at risk of getting a face-full of novel virus particles. Forget the long term perspective. Right now, today, their body is wholly unprepared for a full-scale viral invasion. One that has the potential to do chronic damage to their lungs, heart and kidneys. Anything that can be done to reduce harm is beneficial; and the absolute, undeniably current best protection is getting vaccinated.
 
Captain Adverse said:
1. It is highly unlikely that simply vaccinating everyone will eliminate a virus, due to both natural mutation and the possibility of other forms of hosts re-transmitting it or a variant to humans, and
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1. One of the most thoughtful posts that I have read on this national and international tragedy.

2. Maybe the powers-that-be know the information in the OP to be accurate, but they fear that most people (like me) are too stupid to understand, so they just simplified it for us dolts: Take vaccine. You will not get COVID. End of discussion.

a. I have noticed that the powers-that-be are now saying: OK, you may get COVID, but the symptoms will be mild and you probably will not even need hospitalization.

3. I am not yet vaccinated, but I probably will get vaccinated.

a. The powers-that-be are doing a great job in scaring me.
b. They tell me I am in the risk group (I'm 84).
c. They tell me I might end up on a respirator,
d. They tell me I should do it as a patriotic duty.
e. They assure me the side effects are minor and easy to endure until they disappear.

4. Except for not being vaccinated, I am doing what I can.

a. I have always been a homebody, so now I am a homebody on steroids.
b. I might leave the house once a week to mail some letters or shop.
c. I wear a mask outside whenever I see another pedestrian and always try to turn my face away from the passing person.
d. I try to maintain a 6-foot-distance.
e. I never browse in a store. Try to be in & out in 10 minutes or less.
f. Even afraid to breathe fresh air, for the powers-that-be tell me someone might have left virus particles in the air.
g. Of course, wash my hands after handling mail.

5. We are now being warned about a huge surge reaching its highest peak in October. When the numbers go down, will there be another surge in, say, January of 2022 (that will be attributed to Christmas travel, just as this current surge is being attributed to July 4th travel)?

6. The unvaccinated are now being told: Vaccinate or lose your job or place at the university.

a. Of course, a lot of vaccinated people are cheering this decision.
 
Taylor said:
Very few scientists believe we can "eradicate" Covid with vaccines. It's likely here to stay.
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We could have. But by now we have pretty much lost our chance, due to stupid political games.

“ A year ago, scientists looking at the future of the COVID-19 pandemic felt optimistic. Vaccine development was zooming toward unprecedented achievement. And unlike the viruses that cause the flu or AIDS, they thought, this virus couldn't mutate to evade the fully primed human immune system.”

www.webmd.com

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview

COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.
www.webmd.com www.webmd.com
 
ataraxia said:
We could have. But by now we have pretty much lost our chance, due to stupid political games.

“ A year ago, scientists looking at the future of the COVID-19 pandemic felt optimistic. Vaccine development was zooming toward unprecedented achievement. And unlike the viruses that cause the flu or AIDS, they thought, this virus couldn't mutate to evade the fully primed human immune system.”

www.webmd.com

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview

COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.
www.webmd.com www.webmd.com
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We didn't have a vaccine a year ago, and any scientists who predicted the virus wouldn't mutate were clearly wrong.
 
Mongidig said:
Breakthrough infections are very rare in vaccinated people. The more people who are vaccinated the less infections are out there. The unvaccinated are making it easy to spread this ultra infectious variant.
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Then why are we being asked to mask up again?
 
Captain Adverse said:
There is a lot of hype about vaccines and what they do. But one thing people need to recognize is that vaccines are not a "cure," i.e. they don't "kill viruses."

Vaccines are a preparation of either a weakened/killed form of a pathogen (like Smallpox variolation), or a harmless portion of a pathogen's structure (typically the outside coating sans the harmful RNA), either of which will trigger a reaction of the human immune system without propagating the disease. This allows the immune system to recognize the active pathogen, then react to both the initial and then the subsequent exposure by developing and producing antibodies to fight off/kill the pathogen.

However, some people have less robust immune systems than most others, often due to age and/or pre-existing medical issues. There are even a very rare few (due to lack of survivability without drastic measures, i.e. "Bubble Boy") persons born with no immune systems.

There are also other persons whose immune systems are so robust that they are already capable of recognizing such pathogens without "priming" via vaccination, and automatically react to create antibodies. ("Natural" immunes).

Meanwhile, viruses remain capable of mutating inside a host, as they are just little packets of biological information designed for one purpose; replication by using the bodies of more complex organisms.

My point in describing the above? Two current "facts."

1. It is highly unlikely that simply vaccinating everyone will eliminate a virus, due to both natural mutation and the possibility of other forms of hosts re-transmitting it or a variant to humans, and

2. Demanding that the few or the one submit to the demands of the many simply out of "fear" is an irrational response in a self-declared "rational" society.
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Thank you for confirming that after a year and a half, you remain willfully uninformed on vaccines.
 
ataraxia said:
There would be no mutations if everyone got the vaccine. The only mutant factories now are the unvaccinated.
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Again, there was no vaccine. The virus mutated before that. It will continue to mutate. More than likely it is here to stay. People will die every year from Covid. Some years will be worse than others.
 
holbritter said:
Then why are we being asked to mask up again?
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I think the persons saying "breakthrough infections" are meaning it in the sense of moderate to severe cases of the disease.

ataraxia said:
We could have. But by now we have pretty much lost our chance, due to stupid political games.
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Eradicate is a really, really strong word. Like I mentioned in my above post, coronaviruses are a zoonotic disease. It can invade and exist in non-human hosts. It'll always be out there.

But, you're correct that the size and scope of the current outbreak probably could've been avoided. If in Wuhan had the virus been immediately identified as a novel disease, and then subsequently, if China had been able/willing to seek help from global health partners, then we might have been able to put significant roadblocks in the way of the virus ever entering the stage of uncontrolled spread.

Let's not mention that even further up-the-chain preventions might even exist. Like, China having food safety policies and bans against poaching, and the trade of wild bushmeat.

However I don't think we'll ever truly know that. Eventually I feel the forensic studies will be able to establish a scenario about SARS-CoV-2 that has those +95% certainties. However for all we know, patient zero could've been a dude who caught and spread a few cases of the disease in Topeka, Kansas; and then jumped on a plane to Wuhan where it was first identified. There's all sorts of remote scenarios that could've happened that made the uncontrolled spread unavoidable.


Edit: Also ... even with all those could'ves and may haves and probablies ... fact still remains if you want to significantly reduce the chance of a nasty virus turning your lungs into goo, getting that vaccine is the best way to do it.
 
Patriotic Voter said:
Measles and rubella still exist thanks to idiots refusing to let pediatricians vaccinate their kids. :mad:
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They still exist, yes, but the outbreaks are small and isolated.
 
Taylor said:
I take this as a "no" - you can't identify anything close to success in eradicating a coronavirus.
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Correct, we have never done a thing we never tried to do before.
 
Ikari said:
Is there a point to this rant? If enough people vaccinate, we can protect the population. If enough people vaccinate for long enough, we can effectively remove a disease from the human race. There are many diseases that we don't worry about any longer because we've had vaccinations.

No, they aren't cures, but they are preventions. And they work on the statistical aggregate of a population. So an individual choosing not to vaccinate is not just making a choice for themselves, but for the entire population. If enough people vaccinate, you can remove a disease from effectiveness.
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Maybe, but most of those results are just luck. A vaccinated person can still become infected and contagious with COVID. So it just becomes a question of whether it mutates fast and efficiently enough to require annual vaccination like influenza does.

Other viruses are just less effective at doing that but it is an inevitability. For example, a vaccine resistant strain of Poliovirus was discovered in the Congo in 2010. You can’t approach this as though viruses just disappear from the face of the Earth when people are vaccinated. They’re still around and they adapt.
 
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Patriotic Voter said:
Unlike covid, which will never be reduced to small and isolated outbreaks.
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Of course it will. Are there still major outbreaks of the 1918 influenza virus strain?

At some point with or without vaccines, the current SARS-CoV-2 will burn through the human population and be forced to mutate and evolve into a new disease.

The whole point of the current vaccine is harm reduction. All of us here will catch or be exposed to SARS-CoV-2. That's a fact. Our choice is whether we want to enter that battle with a primed and ready immune system. Or, an immune system that is caught by surprise and is decimated like the unprepared Hessian troops that were near Trenton, NJ when Washington crossed the Delaware.
 
Which dumbasses don't know that vaccines don't "kill" viruses?
 
Deuce said:
Correct, we have never done a thing we never tried to do before.
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Hey - you be you and stand firm with the 1% of scientists who believe that eradication is a probable outcome. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I think we have enough people losing faith in epidemiologists already to be promoting unlikely scenarios.
 
holbritter said:
Then why are we being asked to mask up again?
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Trump supporters have ruined it for everybody. Now they are paying for it. In areas of wide spread the virus is easily jumping from person to person. It's jumping into vaccinated people but not necessarily infecting them. They can still spread it.

You only have yourselves to blame. You threw a tantrum and and your the ones feeling the pain.
 
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