Utah's immigration bill goes in a different direction from Arizona

[StillBallin75]

Utah immigration bill seeks middle ground in debate - USATODAY.com

The Utah bill, known as the Pilot Accountability Permit Program, would grant work permits to illegal immigrants so they could legally work in the state, but would require them to undergo criminal background checks, pay taxes, take English classes and would force them to leave the state if they lose their jobs.

Under the legislation, the state would report illegal immigrants who commit a major crime to the federal Immigration and Custom Enforcement or ICE.

Seems to me like not only a more humane, but also a much more practical way for states to deal with illegals given the lack of direction from the federal gov't.

 

[jamesrage]

Doesn't a compromise imply that both sides get something? If you are actually against illegal immigration then that means no amnesty in any shape or form what so ever. That means illegals go home and come back into our country the right way. Granting work permits to people who invaded or sneaked into our country is not a compromise. Calling it a compromise is laughable. When you have "The Race"(La Raza) quoted as saying "It just feels more meaningful than what we've seen in other states." its a very good indication that this bill is as much as a compromise as 30 day waiting period and firearm licenses are to 2nd amendment advocates.


States can simply do what Oklahoma and and Arizona has done to deal with illegals.

 

[StillBallin75]

Doesn't a compromise imply that both sides get something? If you are actually against illegal immigration then that means no amnesty in any shape or form what so ever. That means illegals go home and come back into our country the right way. Granting work permits to people who invaded or sneaked into our country is not a compromise. Calling it a compromise is laughable. When you have "The Race"(La Raza) quoted as saying "It just feels more meaningful than what we've seen in other states." its a very good indication that this bill is as much as a compromise as 30 day waiting period and firearm licenses are to 2nd amendment advocates.


States can simply do what Oklahoma and and Arizona has done to deal with illegals.

A compromise also means you don't get everything you want. "No amnesty in any shape or form whatsoever" is inherently an uncompromising position, not to mention unrealistic, impractical, and costly in the event it is implemented.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

I think this is a good idea - although the idea that they would have to leave the state if they lost their jobs doesn't really make sense since they could lose their jobs for many other reasons than their own performance.

With laws like these though, I always feel like they need to be complemented with better prevention of illegal immigration. I'm all for granting a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants already here, but by creating such paths without also stopping new people from coming in, we make the U.S. more vulnerable to the problem.

 

[jamesrage]

A compromise also means you don't get everything you want. "No amnesty in any shape or form whatsoever" is inherently an uncompromising position, not to mention unrealistic, impractical, and costly in the event it is implemented.

The only thing that is unrealistic and impractical is the idea that you need amnesty to crack down on illegal immigration.Oklahoma did not need to reward illegals with any sort of amnesty.

Amnesty amounts to pouring gasoline on a fire and saying this will will help put out the fire. Amnesty is an incentive for people to come here illegally, it amounts to letting a bank robber keep the cash they stole, a trespasser stay on the property they trespassed on a car thief keep the car they stole and saying it helps stop those crimes.


Again What Utah is trying to do is no compromise.

 

[Baralis]

Utah immigration bill seeks middle ground in debate - USATODAY.com



Seems to me like not only a more humane, but also a much more practical way for states to deal with illegals given the lack of direction from the federal gov't.

I have my concerns with this. The first being my lack of confidence in our government to actually deport those not qualified. The second being mass (now legal) cheaply available employees. I can see this having serious repercussions on wages for Americans. Why hire an American to do the job when you can hire a formally illegal immigrant for 1/2 the wage. And not to mention giving amnesty to illegals as long as they remain employed.

 

[StillBallin75]

I have my concerns with this. The first being my lack of confidence in our government to actually deport those not qualified. The second being mass (now legal) cheaply available employees. I can see this having serious repercussions on wages for Americans. Why hire an American to do the job when you can hire a formally illegal immigrant for 1/2 the wage. And not to mention giving amnesty to illegals as long as they remain employed.

I'm not sure where are you're getting that these guest workers are getting paid 1/2 the wages?

 

[jamesrage]

I have my concerns with this. The first being my lack of confidence in our government to actually deport those not qualified.

I agree.

The second being mass (now legal) cheaply available employees. I can see this having serious repercussions on wages for Americans. Why hire an American to do the job when you can hire a formally illegal immigrant for 1/2 the wage.

I disagree with that statement. One of the reasons scumbags hire illegals in the first place is because of the fact they can pay them substandard wages. If they are no longer illegals then that means they can ask for fairer wages and better working conditions. These same scumbags who hire illegals are still going to hire more illegals. All they will do is fire the people who became legal and replace them with new illegals. This will still have an impact on everyone who works for an honest employer because former illegals can now work at those places thus creating more competition in the workforce.

And not to mention giving amnesty to illegals as long as they remain employed.

Which is why the idea of this being a compromise is laughable.

 

[Baralis]

I'm not sure where are you're getting that these guest workers are getting paid 1/2 the wages?

1/2 was simply an example. I believe that illegals given the opportunity to remain here legally as long as they are employed who are used to sub standard wages will be willing to work for lower wages then you American born counterpart.

Choice 1) Demand to be paid equally as an average American would be with a particular job.

or

Choice 2) Settle for less (but still more then I am used to earning) then an American citizen and risk loosing legal status because many employers prefer American citizens (if at equal wage), remain illegal and continue to work for the same old sub standard wages.

To me I think the choice would be clear for most.

 

[StillBallin75]

1/2 was simply an example. I believe that illegals given the opportunity to remain here legally as long as they are employed who are used to sub standard wages will be willing to work for lower wages then you American born counterpart.

Choice 1) Demand to be paid equally as an average American would be with a particular job.

or

Choice 2) Settle for less (but still more then I am used to earning) then an American citizen and risk loosing legal status because many employers prefer American citizens (if at equal wage), remain illegal and continue to work for the same old sub standard wages.

To me I think the choice would be clear for most.

I agree with James on this one, or maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding is that once they obtain legal status, the must receive fair wages from employers (minimum wage laws come into play).

 

[Baralis]

I agree with James on this one, or maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding is that once they obtain legal status, the must receive fair wages from employers (minimum wage laws come into play).

Perhaps your right. I just feel employers will continue to exploit emigrant labor. While they will now be required by law to pay min. wage this does not mean they will offer "normal" wages to them knowing they must remain employed to remain legal.

 

[StillBallin75]

Perhaps your right. I just feel employers will continue to exploit emigrant labor. While they will now be required by law to pay min. wage this does not mean they will offer "normal" wages to them knowing they must remain employed to remain legal.

Interesting, your point is not without merit.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Perhaps your right. I just feel employers will continue to exploit emigrant labor. While they will now be required by law to pay min. wage this does not mean they will offer "normal" wages to them knowing they must remain employed to remain legal.

Are you implying there would be a sympathy industry at play?

 

[Kal'Stang]

A compromise also means you don't get everything you want. "No amnesty in any shape or form whatsoever" is inherently an uncompromising position, not to mention unrealistic, impractical, and costly in the event it is implemented.

Actually it is quite realistic. Just stop given them handouts, and crack down on buisnesses that hire them with heavy fines and jail time and revocation of buisness licenses for up to 5 years max. Including requireing all employers to check out social security card numbers. Stop letting the IRS ignore multiple uses of social security card uses from different addresses. Stop states from creating "sancturary cities" is another way, after all...illegal immigration is within the government purview.

There are lots of ways to detect illegal aliens that are not used that should be. Might cost a little more in the short term but in the long run it would pay off.

Once illegal aliens get the idea that it is more trouble to come here than to stay in thier own countries we won't have this huge problem.

 

[spud_meister]

So what does this bill do to combat illegal immigration? Why would illegals register and be forced to take English classes and such if they can just keep laying low and stay in the country regardless of if they're employed or not?

 

[shintao]

Utah immigration bill seeks middle ground in debate - USATODAY.com



Seems to me like not only a more humane, but also a much more practical way for states to deal with illegals given the lack of direction from the federal gov't.

Illegals are criminals, and should be deported.

 

[gekaap]

Why would illegals register and be forced to take English classes and such if they can just keep laying low and stay in the country regardless of if they're employed or not?

^^This. If they wanted to play by the rules, they wouldn't be here illegally in the first place.

 

[Jiminy_Cricket]

That is totally nuts. They made a mistake, and I am sure they will pay a penalty for it. Don't you think your thoughts is a little archaic? First of all, the people we should get rid off are the criminals, which this law applies. Second, who do you think are the ones the one that take advantage of welfare? Illegal immigrants or simply people who don't give a damn about education and that are simply spoiled by the government (Like many, non-Hispanic, including Anglo-Saxon people do). Now, Mr. Jamesrage, if you were illegal, would you take advantage of the system, knowing that it could just lead you to deportation? Are you aware that every person who has come to the States legal, or illegal has to file taxes (and are given a special number), in order to become a US resident or just get a work permit? Well, now, Mr. Jamesrage, if you are smart enough, can you link the fact that THE GOVERNMENT can EASILY find out who is illegal and who is not.
What Arizona is doing is right now is damaging the name of the United States of America. People like you and many others who believe they should help people in other countries, because is the "right thing to do" are simply viewed as fools and people with double standards. Are we really going back to the 60s?
If you ask me, what should be the official language in America, I would in all ways say English. This means that I am against "pressing one for English, and two for Spanish" I was born and raised in Peru, but in the 8 years I have lived in States I have grown to love this country and to care for it as my alma matter.
Take the criminals away, and DO NOT GENERALIZE.
And remember, only ignorance breeds fair, and fair breeds HATRED. Are you a hater? I hope not.

 

[digsbe]

I don't believe that a state has the right to give legal residency to illegal immigrants. It's a federal offense, not a state one. If the Obama administration is going to attack AZ for trying to enforce federal law, then I expect them to go after Utah for trying to overrule federal law.

 

[mike2810]

Are you aware that every person who has come to the States legal, or illegal has to file taxes (and are given a special number),
What Arizona is doing is right now is damaging the name of the United States of America. Are you a hater? I hope not.

Please show that every person legal or illegal files taxes. Local news in Az has stories that many illegal workers are paid under the table and off the books, use false SSN or ID's.
I disagree that what AZ is doing is damaging the US.
So if we disagree with you we are "haters". I support legal immigration, I have no respect for those who enter illegally into the US.

 

[d0gbreath]

The only thing that is unrealistic and impractical is the idea that you need amnesty to crack down on illegal immigration.Oklahoma did not need to reward illegals with any sort of amnesty.

Amnesty amounts to pouring gasoline on a fire and saying this will will help put out the fire. Amnesty is an incentive for people to come here illegally, it amounts to letting a bank robber keep the cash they stole, a trespasser stay on the property they trespassed on a car thief keep the car they stole and saying it helps stop those crimes.


Again What Utah is trying to do is no compromise.

Emphasis is mine.

Thank you President Reagan.

 

[Kal'Stang]

I don't believe that a state has the right to give legal residency to illegal immigrants. It's a federal offense, not a state one. If the Obama administration is going to attack AZ for trying to enforce federal law, then I expect them to go after Utah for trying to overrule federal law.

There won't be a peep from Obama on it.