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US is losing the war

alienken said:
The terrorist hasn't been as bad as the US in Iraq? Compare Abu Grabe naked prisoner photos with the videos of the be-headings.

What I mean is that the US has killed more than the "terrorists", and the beheading tapes are very rare, and I wasn't comparing it to Abu Ghraib pictures, though some people did die in those abuses.

And anyways, I said that I also sorta support these "terrorists" in their Anti-US dominance, over their country.
 
Navy Pride said:
President Bush has said the war on terror will last a long time........Get use to it........


.....................NO.........................
 
the beheading tapes are very rare

Which is a good thing. On the other hand, Muslim terrorists attacks on Muslims appears to be increasing. Attached is a link to a report describing an attack in Tal Afar. Words escape me; read it for yourself. But here is the setting:

"I Never Knew His Name
The true face of Muslim martyrdom"


"Today some terrorists decided to kill some Iraqi citizens — good Muslims — in order to discourage them from voting on Saturday on the new constitution. These terrorists called themselves Muslims and claimed that what they did was for Allah. But their connection to Islam is about as true and strong as Timothy McVeigh’s connection to Christianity. What they did is so contrary to the holy teachings of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) that to say their name in the same breath as Islam is considered sacrilege."

Link to source.

Why is this story relevant to this topic? First, it is indicative of the increasing tendency of the terrorist to attack civilian targets, of which the Amman, Jordan bombings are the most recent example. Second, it suggests that the Al Qaeda terrorists in Iraq are not following Zawahiri's plea to focus on attacking infidels instead of fellow Muslims. This is important because the continued attacks on Iraqi and/or other Muslims in the ME will eventually erode Al Qaeda's base of support.

If they (Al Qaeda in Iraq) continue this policy, moderate Muslims in the ME and the rest of the world will turn against them. As they do, the terrorists will slowly lose their safe houses and havens. We are not at that 'tipping point' yet, but the reaction across the ME to the Jordanian bombings suggest that perhaps it is not far away.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Which is a good thing. On the other hand, Muslim terrorists attacks on Muslims appears to be increasing. Attached is a link to a report describing an attack in Tal Afar. Words escape me; read it for yourself. But here is the setting:

"I Never Knew His Name
The true face of Muslim martyrdom"


"Today some terrorists decided to kill some Iraqi citizens — good Muslims — in order to discourage them from voting on Saturday on the new constitution. These terrorists called themselves Muslims and claimed that what they did was for Allah. But their connection to Islam is about as true and strong as Timothy McVeigh’s connection to Christianity. What they did is so contrary to the holy teachings of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) that to say their name in the same breath as Islam is considered sacrilege."

Link to source.

Why is this story relevant to this topic? First, it is indicative of the increasing tendency of the terrorist to attack civilian targets, of which the Amman, Jordan bombings are the most recent example. Second, it suggests that the Al Qaeda terrorists in Iraq are not following Zawahiri's plea to focus on attacking infidels instead of fellow Muslims. This is important because the continued attacks on Iraqi and/or other Muslims in the ME will eventually erode Al Qaeda's base of support.

If they (Al Qaeda in Iraq) continue this policy, moderate Muslims in the ME and the rest of the world will turn against them. As they do, the terrorists will slowly lose their safe houses and havens. We are not at that 'tipping point' yet, but the reaction across the ME to the Jordanian bombings suggest that perhaps it is not far away.


Exactly. This is a new form of "war of attrition" and it is one that we cannot walk a way from, because they will not let us. The terrorists are desperate. They have been taking a beating ever since they "went too far." Like all "apocalyptic" terrorist they leave themselves no escape route and always bring about their own demise. Their (Al-Queda) attacks prior to 9/11 were mostly upon military installations and the military in general. The desperation attacks of civilians ever since and the targeting of fellow Muslims is slowly showing the world what they are, especially in the Arab home land. With every new attack, just like in Indonesia, they create more enemies instead of recruiting more martyrs. They are simply trying to show the world that they are still a threat, no matter that their targets are as far from military as they can get.
 
Iraq, hah.



Why didn't we invade Pakistan again?



Or maybe Saudi Arabia...were OMG a whole lot of terrorist are from and a whole lot of money is funneled through.





Or maybe we could try Syria..



There were SO MANY BETTER TARGETS
 
The US isn't losing anything. Only a retard would say otherwise. Iraq is only a battleground in this war. Our military—especially the Army and Marine Corps—felt betrayed by our national leadership over Vietnam. It didn’t end there. President Reagan evacuated Beirut shortly after the bombing of our Marine barracks on the city’s outskirts, beginning a long series of bipartisan retreats in the face of terror that ultimately led to 9/11. We hit a low point in Mogadishu, when Army Rangers and line troops delivered a devastating blow against General Aideed’s irregulars only to have President Clinton declare defeat by pulling out when adherents of Al-Queda ambushed some. One may argue about the rationale for our presence in Somalia and about the dangers of mission creep, but once we’re in a fight, we need to win it and remain on the battlefield long enough to convince our enemies they’ve lost on every count.

Things began to change less than two weeks into our campaign in Afghanistan. At first, there was caution…would the new President run as soon as we suffered casualties? Then, as it dawned on our commanders that this Administration would stand behind our forces, we saw one of the most innovative campaigns in military history unfold with stunning speed, though many were not even aware. Operation Iraqi Freedom, one of the most successful military campaigns in history, was intended to be a new kind of war of maneuver, in which aerial weapons would “shock and awe” a humbled opponent into surrender while ground forces did a little light dusting in the house of war. But instead of being decided by maneuvered technologies, the three-week war was fought and won, triumphantly, by soldiers and Marines employing both aggressive operational maneuvers and devastating tactical firepower.

Far from entering an age of pure maneuver (shock and awe to certain and immediate defeat), we have entered a new age of attrition warfare in two kinds: First, the war against religious terrorism is unquestionably a war of attrition - if one of your enemies is left alive or unimprisoned, he will continue trying to kill you and destroy your civilization. Second, Operation Iraqi Freedom, for all its dashing maneuvers, provided a new example of a postmodern war of attrition—one in which the casualties are overwhelmingly on one side. The largely ignored U.S. military have been warning of this certain inevitable future since the Reagan era.

Our enemies in the “War on Terror” are men who believe, literally, that they are on a mission from God to destroy your civilization and, who regard death as a promotion, are not impressed by our morals and restrictions to remain civil. We must find them; no matter how long it takes, and then kill them. If they surrender, we must accord them their rights under the laws of war and international conventions. But, as we have learned so painfully from all the mindless, left-wing nonsense spouted about the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, we are much better off killing them before they have a chance to surrender.

It isn’t a question of whether or not we want to fight a war of attrition against religion-fueled terrorists. We’re in a war of attrition with them and they are determined to wage it upon us. We have no realistic choice. Indeed, our enemies are, in some respects, better suited to both global and local wars of maneuver than we are. They have a world in which to hide, and the world is full of targets for them. They do not heed laws or boundaries. They make and observe no treaties. They do not expect the approval of the United Nations Security Council. They do not face election cycles. And their weapons are largely provided by our own societies.

We have the technical capabilities to deploy globally, but, for now, we are forced to watch as Pakistani forces fumble efforts to surround and destroy concentrations of terrorists; we cannot enter any country (except, temporarily, Iraq) without the permission of its government. We have many tools - military, diplomatic, economic, cultural, law enforcement, and so on - but we have less freedom of maneuver than our enemies. But we do have superior killing power, once our enemies have been located. Faced with implacable enemies who would kill every man, woman, and child in our country and call the killing good (the ultimate war of attrition), we must be willing to use that power wisely, but remorselessly.

We are, militarily and nationally, in a transition phase. Even after 9/11, so many do not fully appreciate the cruelty and determination of our enemies. We will learn our lesson, painfully, because the terrorists will not quit. The only solution is to kill them and keep on killing them: a war of attrition. But a war of attrition fought on our terms, not theirs. Of course, pacifist and our self appointed voices of conscience global left will make no end of fatuous arguments to the effect that we can’t kill our way out of the problem. Well, until a better methodology is discovered, killing every terrorist we can find is a good interim solution. The truth is that even if you can’t kill yourself out of the problem, you can make the problem a great deal smaller by effective targeting and make no mistake - this is exactly what we are doing.

So many say that killing terrorists only creates more terrorists. This is utterly wrong and complete nonsense. The surest way to swell the ranks of terror is to follow the approach we did in the decade before 9/11 and do nothing of substance. Success breeds success. Everybody loves a winner. The cliches exist because they’re true. Al-Qaeda and related terrorist groups separated because they were viewed in the Muslim world as standing up to the West successfully and handing the Great Satan America embarrassing defeats with impunity. Some fanatics will flock to the standard of terror, no matter what we do. But it’s far easier for Islamic societies to purge themselves of terrorists if the terrorists are on the losing end of the global struggle than if they’re allowed to become triumphant heroes to every jobless, unstable teenager in the Middle East and beyond.

Far worse than fighting such a war of attrition aggressively is to pretend you’re not in one while your enemy keeps on killing you. It is not a matter of whether attrition is good or bad. It’s necessary.
 
128shot said:
Iraq, hah.

Why didn't we invade Pakistan again?

Use your brain.


128shot said:
Or maybe Saudi Arabia...were OMG a whole lot of terrorist are from and a whole lot of money is funneled through.

Use your brain.


128shot said:
Or maybe we could try Syria..

Use your brain.

128shot said:
There were SO MANY BETTER TARGETS

Use your brain. Not all "targets" necessarily need military action. I think it would do you some good to actually study the region and the social politics of each country. There are many social issues within these borders that you seem to not be aware of.
 
GySgt said:
The US isn't losing anything. Only a retard would say otherwise. Iraq is only a battleground in this war. Our military—especially the Army and Marine Corps—felt betrayed by our national leadership over Vietnam. It didn’t end there. President Reagan evacuated Beirut shortly after the bombing of our Marine barracks on the city’s outskirts, beginning a long series of bipartisan retreats in the face of terror that ultimately led to 9/11. We hit a low point in Mogadishu, when Army Rangers and line troops delivered a devastating blow against General Aideed’s irregulars only to have President Clinton declare defeat by pulling out when adherents of Al-Queda ambushed some. One may argue about the rationale for our presence in Somalia and about the dangers of mission creep, but once we’re in a fight, we need to win it and remain on the battlefield long enough to convince our enemies they’ve lost on every count.

Things began to change less than two weeks into our campaign in Afghanistan. At first, there was caution…would the new President run as soon as we suffered casualties? Then, as it dawned on our commanders that this Administration would stand behind our forces, we saw one of the most innovative campaigns in military history unfold with stunning speed, though many were not even aware. Operation Iraqi Freedom, one of the most successful military campaigns in history, was intended to be a new kind of war of maneuver, in which aerial weapons would “shock and awe” a humbled opponent into surrender while ground forces did a little light dusting in the house of war. But instead of being decided by maneuvered technologies, the three-week war was fought and won, triumphantly, by soldiers and Marines employing both aggressive operational maneuvers and devastating tactical firepower.

Far from entering an age of pure maneuver (shock and awe to certain and immediate defeat), we have entered a new age of attrition warfare in two kinds: First, the war against religious terrorism is unquestionably a war of attrition - if one of your enemies is left alive or unimprisoned, he will continue trying to kill you and destroy your civilization. Second, Operation Iraqi Freedom, for all its dashing maneuvers, provided a new example of a postmodern war of attrition—one in which the casualties are overwhelmingly on one side. The largely ignored U.S. military have been warning of this certain inevitable future since the Reagan era.

Our enemies in the “War on Terror” are men who believe, literally, that they are on a mission from God to destroy your civilization and, who regard death as a promotion, are not impressed by our morals and restrictions to remain civil. We must find them; no matter how long it takes, and then kill them. If they surrender, we must accord them their rights under the laws of war and international conventions. But, as we have learned so painfully from all the mindless, left-wing nonsense spouted about the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, we are much better off killing them before they have a chance to surrender.

It isn’t a question of whether or not we want to fight a war of attrition against religion-fueled terrorists. We’re in a war of attrition with them and they are determined to wage it upon us. We have no realistic choice. Indeed, our enemies are, in some respects, better suited to both global and local wars of maneuver than we are. They have a world in which to hide, and the world is full of targets for them. They do not heed laws or boundaries. They make and observe no treaties. They do not expect the approval of the United Nations Security Council. They do not face election cycles. And their weapons are largely provided by our own societies.

We have the technical capabilities to deploy globally, but, for now, we are forced to watch as Pakistani forces fumble efforts to surround and destroy concentrations of terrorists; we cannot enter any country (except, temporarily, Iraq) without the permission of its government. We have many tools - military, diplomatic, economic, cultural, law enforcement, and so on - but we have less freedom of maneuver than our enemies. But we do have superior killing power, once our enemies have been located. Faced with implacable enemies who would kill every man, woman, and child in our country and call the killing good (the ultimate war of attrition), we must be willing to use that power wisely, but remorselessly.

We are, militarily and nationally, in a transition phase. Even after 9/11, so many do not fully appreciate the cruelty and determination of our enemies. We will learn our lesson, painfully, because the terrorists will not quit. The only solution is to kill them and keep on killing them: a war of attrition. But a war of attrition fought on our terms, not theirs. Of course, pacifist and our self appointed voices of conscience global left will make no end of fatuous arguments to the effect that we can’t kill our way out of the problem. Well, until a better methodology is discovered, killing every terrorist we can find is a good interim solution. The truth is that even if you can’t kill yourself out of the problem, you can make the problem a great deal smaller by effective targeting and make no mistake - this is exactly what we are doing.

So many say that killing terrorists only creates more terrorists. This is utterly wrong and complete nonsense. The surest way to swell the ranks of terror is to follow the approach we did in the decade before 9/11 and do nothing of substance. Success breeds success. Everybody loves a winner. The cliches exist because they’re true. Al-Qaeda and related terrorist groups separated because they were viewed in the Muslim world as standing up to the West successfully and handing the Great Satan America embarrassing defeats with impunity. Some fanatics will flock to the standard of terror, no matter what we do. But it’s far easier for Islamic societies to purge themselves of terrorists if the terrorists are on the losing end of the global struggle than if they’re allowed to become triumphant heroes to every jobless, unstable teenager in the Middle East and beyond.

Far worse than fighting such a war of attrition aggressively is to pretend you’re not in one while your enemy keeps on killing you. It is not a matter of whether attrition is good or bad. It’s necessary.

Can anyone say detrement? O btw, I would make sure that when discussing the "Mogue" that in a combat aspect the kill ratio was 1:135 for every american they killed we killed 135 of the their irregulars. However, it all comes down to this. Politicians need to stay out of the militaries way. If they send us to do a job then let us do it and stay the hell out of it. Our military would never have had to go home if thy let us do what we do best. And that is kick a$$.
 
GySgt said:
The US isn't losing anything. Only a retard would say otherwise. Iraq is only a battleground in this war. Our military—especially the Army and Marine Corps—felt betrayed by our national leadership over Vietnam. It didn’t end there. President Reagan evacuated Beirut shortly after the bombing of our Marine barracks on the city’s outskirts, beginning a long series of bipartisan retreats in the face of terror that ultimately led to 9/11. We hit a low point in Mogadishu, when Army Rangers and line troops delivered a devastating blow against General Aideed’s irregulars only to have President Clinton declare defeat by pulling out when adherents of Al-Queda ambushed some. One may argue about the rationale for our presence in Somalia and about the dangers of mission creep, but once we’re in a fight, we need to win it and remain on the battlefield long enough to convince our enemies they’ve lost on every count.

Things began to change less than two weeks into our campaign in Afghanistan. At first, there was caution…would the new President run as soon as we suffered casualties? Then, as it dawned on our commanders that this Administration would stand behind our forces, we saw one of the most innovative campaigns in military history unfold with stunning speed, though many were not even aware. Operation Iraqi Freedom, one of the most successful military campaigns in history, was intended to be a new kind of war of maneuver, in which aerial weapons would “shock and awe” a humbled opponent into surrender while ground forces did a little light dusting in the house of war. But instead of being decided by maneuvered technologies, the three-week war was fought and won, triumphantly, by soldiers and Marines employing both aggressive operational maneuvers and devastating tactical firepower.

Far from entering an age of pure maneuver (shock and awe to certain and immediate defeat), we have entered a new age of attrition warfare in two kinds: First, the war against religious terrorism is unquestionably a war of attrition - if one of your enemies is left alive or unimprisoned, he will continue trying to kill you and destroy your civilization. Second, Operation Iraqi Freedom, for all its dashing maneuvers, provided a new example of a postmodern war of attrition—one in which the casualties are overwhelmingly on one side. The largely ignored U.S. military have been warning of this certain inevitable future since the Reagan era.

Our enemies in the “War on Terror” are men who believe, literally, that they are on a mission from God to destroy your civilization and, who regard death as a promotion, are not impressed by our morals and restrictions to remain civil. We must find them; no matter how long it takes, and then kill them. If they surrender, we must accord them their rights under the laws of war and international conventions. But, as we have learned so painfully from all the mindless, left-wing nonsense spouted about the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, we are much better off killing them before they have a chance to surrender.

It isn’t a question of whether or not we want to fight a war of attrition against religion-fueled terrorists. We’re in a war of attrition with them and they are determined to wage it upon us. We have no realistic choice. Indeed, our enemies are, in some respects, better suited to both global and local wars of maneuver than we are. They have a world in which to hide, and the world is full of targets for them. They do not heed laws or boundaries. They make and observe no treaties. They do not expect the approval of the United Nations Security Council. They do not face election cycles. And their weapons are largely provided by our own societies.

We have the technical capabilities to deploy globally, but, for now, we are forced to watch as Pakistani forces fumble efforts to surround and destroy concentrations of terrorists; we cannot enter any country (except, temporarily, Iraq) without the permission of its government. We have many tools - military, diplomatic, economic, cultural, law enforcement, and so on - but we have less freedom of maneuver than our enemies. But we do have superior killing power, once our enemies have been located. Faced with implacable enemies who would kill every man, woman, and child in our country and call the killing good (the ultimate war of attrition), we must be willing to use that power wisely, but remorselessly.

We are, militarily and nationally, in a transition phase. Even after 9/11, so many do not fully appreciate the cruelty and determination of our enemies. We will learn our lesson, painfully, because the terrorists will not quit. The only solution is to kill them and keep on killing them: a war of attrition. But a war of attrition fought on our terms, not theirs. Of course, pacifist and our self appointed voices of conscience global left will make no end of fatuous arguments to the effect that we can’t kill our way out of the problem. Well, until a better methodology is discovered, killing every terrorist we can find is a good interim solution. The truth is that even if you can’t kill yourself out of the problem, you can make the problem a great deal smaller by effective targeting and make no mistake - this is exactly what we are doing.

So many say that killing terrorists only creates more terrorists. This is utterly wrong and complete nonsense. The surest way to swell the ranks of terror is to follow the approach we did in the decade before 9/11 and do nothing of substance. Success breeds success. Everybody loves a winner. The cliches exist because they’re true. Al-Qaeda and related terrorist groups separated because they were viewed in the Muslim world as standing up to the West successfully and handing the Great Satan America embarrassing defeats with impunity. Some fanatics will flock to the standard of terror, no matter what we do. But it’s far easier for Islamic societies to purge themselves of terrorists if the terrorists are on the losing end of the global struggle than if they’re allowed to become triumphant heroes to every jobless, unstable teenager in the Middle East and beyond.

Far worse than fighting such a war of attrition aggressively is to pretend you’re not in one while your enemy keeps on killing you. It is not a matter of whether attrition is good or bad. It’s necessary.

Can anyone say detrement? O btw, I would make sure that when discussing the "Mogue" that in a combat aspect the kill ratio was 1:135 for every american they killed we killed 135 of the their irregulars. However, it all comes down to this. Politicians need to stay out of the militaries way. If they send us to do a job then let us do it and stay the hell out of it. Our military would never have had to go home if thy let us do what we do best. And that is kick a$$.
 
This war is one that is for the long haul and it does not matter if the military felt betrayed or even if people think we are losing. The reason we are winning is because of oil. I don’t want people to even think that I believe we are taking their oil now, I'm talking about the long term. Removing Sadamm created a form of government, regardless what it is, that will allow the U.N. to remove sanctions on oil and give the U.S. the ability to buy oil from Iraq ten or twenty years down the road. This war as will all wars in the future is about securing economic interests, there is no way we can lose this war in fact we have already won because we have secured a new market.
 
BigChilds said:
This war is one that is for the long haul and it does not matter if the military felt betrayed or even if people think we are losing. The reason we are winning is because of oil. I don’t want people to even think that I believe we are taking their oil now, I'm talking about the long term. Removing Sadamm created a form of government, regardless what it is, that will allow the U.N. to remove sanctions on oil and give the U.S. the ability to buy oil from Iraq ten or twenty years down the road. This war as will all wars in the future is about securing economic interests, there is no way we can lose this war in fact we have already won because we have secured a new market.

That's one good enough reason. There are others.
 
Far worse than fighting such a war of attrition aggressively is to pretend you’re not in one while your enemy keeps on killing you. It is not a matter of whether attrition is good or bad. It’s necessary.

Well said, Gunny, well said.
 
GySgt said:
Use your brain.




Use your brain.




Use your brain.



Use your brain. Not all "targets" necessarily need military action. I think it would do you some good to actually study the region and the social politics of each country. There are many social issues within these borders that you seem to not be aware of.




Sorry, but I did.


Pakistan is going to need some type of intervention, its doing us no good right now to play dipolmat. They're giving nuclear secrets away for god sakes, and yes, we probably do have the capability to knock out their launch system before they launch one at us. The role India would play in this is astounding.


Saudi Arabia...it was an example, I suppose your right.
 
Well, one positive to come out of this is the Army gets to test its new Brigades. A few years ago, the Army (in rare foresight) realized the need to reshape its forces to meet new threats. Long gone is the need for many heavy armored divisions and what they were replaced with are medium weight Stryker Brigades along with new infantry tactics and weapons.

If Iraq and Afghan. do nothing for us, the least the military can glean from this is a very long field testing of its reshaped forces. There is a silver lining to everything.
 
ddoyle00 said:
Well, one positive to come out of this is the Army gets to test its new Brigades. A few years ago, the Army (in rare foresight) realized the need to reshape its forces to meet new threats. Long gone is the need for many heavy armored divisions and what they were replaced with are medium weight Stryker Brigades along with new infantry tactics and weapons.

If Iraq and Afghan. do nothing for us, the least the military can glean from this is a very long field testing of its reshaped forces. There is a silver lining to everything.

A more accurate way to say this is that after almost 40 years (Gulf War exception) they realized that they need to restructure to be more like the Marine Corps. There have been many Army Generals that have been declaring and pushing for this for the last 10 years. They are trying to become more expedient and as deploy friendly as the Varsity has always been. :cool:
 
Comrade Brian said:
Well their first Iraqi govt. leader was voted in because the base of his campagn was to ask the US to leave, we have not left.

And these "terrorists" in Iraq only started after the US invaded.

Have you ever seen all the demonstrations?

I don't know how you can say that the US has made more terrorism than the terrorists... Besides, communism has a 100 million death toll so far, so stop talking.

I don't think the military just goes around shooting all the civilians they can, but somehow the Iraqi civilian death toll is at the lowest estimate 26,000+.

The work of the terrorists. They are infatuated with the idea of strapping explosives to their bodies and exploding them in the middle of a crowded market. Hence the high civilian death toll.

What I mean is that the US has killed more than the "terrorists", and the beheading tapes are very rare, and I wasn't comparing it to Abu Ghraib pictures, though some people did die in those abuses.

Do you know what Abu-Ghraib was before Operation Iraqi Freedom? It was a jail... for anti-Saddam people. Anyone who was caught dissenting against Saddam would be taken there. The common, loving treatment inmates received would often be whipping, beatings, electrodes to the genital areas, dipping in acid vats (repeatedly), limb stretching (like the rack), gang raping women, and so on. And to take your mind off the pain, you would be forced to watch your family raped, tortured, and shot in front of you. Then they would kill you. Yes, the abuses in Abu Ghraib were bad, and I'm not condoning them. But don't make naive statements such as "US has killed more than the [Scare quotes]terrorists[/Scare quotes].

And anyways, I said that I also sorta support these "terrorists" in their Anti-US dominance, over their country.

Good. More target practice for the marines :2razz:

President Bush has said the war on terror will last a long time........Get use to it........

.....................NO.........................

If you don't want to get used to the fact that rooting out a radical militant insurgency will take a while, then sit down and shut up.

The US isn't losing anything. Only a retard would say otherwise. Iraq is only a battleground in this war. Our military—especially the Army and Marine Corps—felt betrayed by our national leadership over Vietnam. It didn’t end there. President Reagan evacuated Beirut shortly after the bombing of our Marine barracks on the city’s outskirts, beginning a long series of bipartisan retreats in the face of terror that ultimately led to 9/11. We hit a low point in Mogadishu, when Army Rangers and line troops delivered a devastating blow against General Aideed’s irregulars only to have President Clinton declare defeat by pulling out when adherents of Al-Queda ambushed some. One may argue about the rationale for our presence in Somalia and about the dangers of mission creep, but once we’re in a fight, we need to win it and remain on the battlefield long enough to convince our enemies they’ve lost on every count.

Things began to change less than two weeks into our campaign in Afghanistan. At first, there was caution…would the new President run as soon as we suffered casualties? Then, as it dawned on our commanders that this Administration would stand behind our forces, we saw one of the most innovative campaigns in military history unfold with stunning speed, though many were not even aware. Operation Iraqi Freedom, one of the most successful military campaigns in history, was intended to be a new kind of war of maneuver, in which aerial weapons would “shock and awe” a humbled opponent into surrender while ground forces did a little light dusting in the house of war. But instead of being decided by maneuvered technologies, the three-week war was fought and won, triumphantly, by soldiers and Marines employing both aggressive operational maneuvers and devastating tactical firepower.

Far from entering an age of pure maneuver (shock and awe to certain and immediate defeat), we have entered a new age of attrition warfare in two kinds: First, the war against religious terrorism is unquestionably a war of attrition - if one of your enemies is left alive or unimprisoned, he will continue trying to kill you and destroy your civilization. Second, Operation Iraqi Freedom, for all its dashing maneuvers, provided a new example of a postmodern war of attrition—one in which the casualties are overwhelmingly on one side. The largely ignored U.S. military have been warning of this certain inevitable future since the Reagan era.

Our enemies in the “War on Terror” are men who believe, literally, that they are on a mission from God to destroy your civilization and, who regard death as a promotion, are not impressed by our morals and restrictions to remain civil. We must find them; no matter how long it takes, and then kill them. If they surrender, we must accord them their rights under the laws of war and international conventions. But, as we have learned so painfully from all the mindless, left-wing nonsense spouted about the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, we are much better off killing them before they have a chance to surrender.

It isn’t a question of whether or not we want to fight a war of attrition against religion-fueled terrorists. We’re in a war of attrition with them and they are determined to wage it upon us. We have no realistic choice. Indeed, our enemies are, in some respects, better suited to both global and local wars of maneuver than we are. They have a world in which to hide, and the world is full of targets for them. They do not heed laws or boundaries. They make and observe no treaties. They do not expect the approval of the United Nations Security Council. They do not face election cycles. And their weapons are largely provided by our own societies.

We have the technical capabilities to deploy globally, but, for now, we are forced to watch as Pakistani forces fumble efforts to surround and destroy concentrations of terrorists; we cannot enter any country (except, temporarily, Iraq) without the permission of its government. We have many tools - military, diplomatic, economic, cultural, law enforcement, and so on - but we have less freedom of maneuver than our enemies. But we do have superior killing power, once our enemies have been located. Faced with implacable enemies who would kill every man, woman, and child in our country and call the killing good (the ultimate war of attrition), we must be willing to use that power wisely, but remorselessly.

We are, militarily and nationally, in a transition phase. Even after 9/11, so many do not fully appreciate the cruelty and determination of our enemies. We will learn our lesson, painfully, because the terrorists will not quit. The only solution is to kill them and keep on killing them: a war of attrition. But a war of attrition fought on our terms, not theirs. Of course, pacifist and our self appointed voices of conscience global left will make no end of fatuous arguments to the effect that we can’t kill our way out of the problem. Well, until a better methodology is discovered, killing every terrorist we can find is a good interim solution. The truth is that even if you can’t kill yourself out of the problem, you can make the problem a great deal smaller by effective targeting and make no mistake - this is exactly what we are doing.

So many say that killing terrorists only creates more terrorists. This is utterly wrong and complete nonsense. The surest way to swell the ranks of terror is to follow the approach we did in the decade before 9/11 and do nothing of substance. Success breeds success. Everybody loves a winner. The cliches exist because they’re true. Al-Qaeda and related terrorist groups separated because they were viewed in the Muslim world as standing up to the West successfully and handing the Great Satan America embarrassing defeats with impunity. Some fanatics will flock to the standard of terror, no matter what we do. But it’s far easier for Islamic societies to purge themselves of terrorists if the terrorists are on the losing end of the global struggle than if they’re allowed to become triumphant heroes to every jobless, unstable teenager in the Middle East and beyond.

Far worse than fighting such a war of attrition aggressively is to pretend you’re not in one while your enemy keeps on killing you. It is not a matter of whether attrition is good or bad. It’s necessary.

Well said!!!

Actually, it began with the insurgents taking over the US embassy in Iran on Nov. 4, 1979.

The terrorists are "militant Islam", a radical sect of Muslims who believe that anyone who does not believe is an infidel and should be destroyed. They think that if they kill an infidel, they will go to heaven. If they die while killing lots of infidels (a la suicide bombing), they will be guaranteed a place in heaven. They also hate Israel like none other, so our being on good terms with them doesn't help. Nothing short of nuking Israel and completely converting to their whack view of religion will help either. They will fight with everything they have, they will fight for their entire lives, they have nothing to lose, and they will not hesitate to kill themselves, so long as they take some of the 'infidel' with them.

This is not a war for oil, this is not a war for resources, this is not a war for money or land, and this is not a war for France. This is a war for the survival of freedom. Laugh all you want, but it will not change that fact. The terrorists want nothing short of a totalitarian Islamic state, and the fall of freedom everywhere. Freedom is not free, and we must fight every day to keep it alive.
 
Ok since when do we rely on the opinion of democratic anaylists?.......These guys havent been to iraq and i have and we are winning the war on terror one step at a time.......wars are like life there progressive!
 
a_marine4bush said:
Ok since when do we rely on the opinion of democratic anaylists?.......These guys havent been to iraq and i have and we are winning the war on terror one step at a time.......wars are like life there progressive!

Of course your right........Some of those clowns could not even find Iraq on the map.....

Thank you for your service and welcome to the forum my friend.........
 
Navy Pride said:
Of course your right........Some of those clowns could not even find Iraq on the map.....

Anti-War people? I'm anti-War and Geography is probably my strongest subject.
 
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Nez Dragon said:
I don't know how you can say that the US has made more terrorism than the terrorists... Besides, communism has a 100 million death toll so far, so stop talking.

Don't be an idiot. Can't come up with a response so you go to those little stupid comments based upon untruths.

1.Communist society hasn't existed...yet. The USSR, China, etc. were all Stalinist which relies on repressive, bureaucratic states, Stalinism is an extreme perversion of the Marxist theories, takes a little bit, and ignores the rest.

2. Most of these people were killed by dictators, dictators and communism tend to be far away from each other, communism is an anarchaic society.

3. How much people have died because of the capitalist system?
 
Comrade Brian said:
Anti-War people? I'm anti-War and Geography is probably my strongest subject.


Hence his word "some."
 
Nez Dragon said:
I don't know how you can say that the US has made more terrorism than the terrorists... Besides, communism has a 100 million death toll so far, so stop talking.




Comrade Brian said:
Don't be an idiot. Can't come up with a response so you go to those little stupid comments based upon untruths.

How's this for a response.....The idea that killing terrorists only creates more terrorists, and therefore we should do as we used to, is utterly wrong and complete nonsense. The surest way to swell the ranks of terror is to follow the approach we did in the decade before 9/11 and do nothing of substance. Success breeds success. Everybody loves a winner. The cliches exist because they’re true. Al-Qaeda and related terrorist groups separated because they were viewed in the Muslim world as standing up to the West successfully and handing the Great Satan America embarrassing defeats with impunity. Some fanatics will flock to the standard of terror, no matter what we do. But it’s far easier for Islamic societies to purge themselves of terrorists if the terrorists are on the losing end of the global struggle than if they’re allowed to become triumphant heroes to every jobless, unstable teenager in the Middle East and beyond. It is inevitable that through our actions, some extremists have taken the step towards terrorism, however, these extremists existed long before our engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's their culture to strike down the infidel and no matter what government you cling to or political party you fantasize about...you are an infidel along with the rest of us.
 
GySgt said:
How's this for a response.....The idea that killing terrorists only creates more terrorists, and therefore we should do as we used to, is utterly wrong and complete nonsense. The surest way to swell the ranks of terror is to follow the approach we did in the decade before 9/11 and do nothing of substance. Success breeds success. Everybody loves a winner. The cliches exist because they’re true. Al-Qaeda and related terrorist groups separated because they were viewed in the Muslim world as standing up to the West successfully and handing the Great Satan America embarrassing defeats with impunity. Some fanatics will flock to the standard of terror, no matter what we do. But it’s far easier for Islamic societies to purge themselves of terrorists if the terrorists are on the losing end of the global struggle than if they’re allowed to become triumphant heroes to every jobless, unstable teenager in the Middle East and beyond. It is inevitable that through our actions, some extremists have taken the step towards terrorism, however, these extremists existed long before our engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's their culture to strike down the infidel and no matter what government you cling to or political party you fantasize about...you are an infidel along with the rest of us.
Well said. It takes time to unravel misconseptions of the U.S..The liberals don't have the patience because it's the wrong political party doing it. The Iraqi people are starting to help with intelligence gathering because we are winning them over and proving to them that we are the good guys. The best way to win them over is exposure to our best and the brightest- the U.S. Military. They see our soldiers as good people.
 
Comrade Brian said:
Anti-War people? I'm anti-War and Geography is probably my strongest subject.

What part of some do you not understand? I guess reading was not your strong suit........:roll:
 
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