US guns are being aimed at Palestinian kids. Washington can take them away

[Apocalypse]

The Palestinians have, from the outset of Zionism, been fighting to stop it dispossessing and displacing them from their homeland. They are the ones acting in self defence. What you class as self defence is the right to defend yourself from those you are systematically abusing and killing in a bid to annexe their lands, or what you want of them.

Israel is the aggressor today, Zionism was the aggresor before the state existed and the Palestinians are the true victims that have fought to defend themselves from dispossession and displacement.

Israel defends itself against Palestinian aggressors. That was the reality throughout the entire conflict and today as well, it's not going to change.
Pointing at the occupation or the general situation of Palestinians and claiming that the end result dictates who is the aggressor and who isn't isn't in line with how human beings handle moral subjects.

 

[RetiredUSN]

The one that was voted on in the UN circa Novemebr 1947

Which went out the window when the Arabs attacked Israel.

 

[Apocalypse]

Of course it's a nationalistic loyalty. If you had a human loyalty you wouldn't be portraying the victims as the aggressors

Am I? Am I saying that the ones who murder innocents have a right to do so? That the ones who initiate hostilities are in the right?
I'm saying neither while you're saying both.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Of course it's a nationalistic loyalty. If you had a human loyalty you wouldn't be portraying the victims as the aggressors

Your definition of Human loyalty is skewed.

 

[oneworld2]

The Israeli-Arab conflict has been a national conflict,

It's been a stuggle for national liberation by two peoples over the same land. One were the millenia plus occupants and the others were an recent immigrant movement that sought to liberate themselves from their European state nationalism due to persecution.

what the Palestinians have been doing however is mostly terrorism and they have made the major source of terrorists for the last several decades, way before 9/11.

Group terrorism often just indicates a massive disparity in military capabilities in the ones engaging in it. The state terrorism is the use of disproportionate force precisely because of that advantage in military options.

Prior to the advent of Hamas in around 1988 most of the Palestinian mainstream resistance,including terrorist actions, was carried out by groups that were way more secular and this doesn't count, imo, as " radical Islamist " terrorism. " Whether people use God as the rallying cry to free themselves from foreign occupation/domination/suppression it still remains a national liberation struggle.

Post 9/11 it is obvious that Israeli propagandists have expoilted the situation to paint a war for national liberation as part of an ideological war between Islamists and the West, in the classic interpretation of the war on terror. That is a distortion seeing as the state of Israel has been the aggressor / ocupying power and the Palestinians the victims of it.

The islamist agenda is to, allegedely, create a world wide caliphate whereas the goal of the Palestinians, including Hamas, is focused solely on the struggle for the liberation of partition plan Palestine only/or the lands occupied, and illegally settled, since 1967.

 

[RetiredUSN]

It's been a stuggle for national liberation by two peoples over the same land. One were the millenia plus occupants and the others were an recent immigrant movement that sought to liberate themselves from their European state nationalism due to persecution.




Group terrorism often just indicates a massive disparity in military capabilities in the ones engaging in it. The state terrorism is the use of disproportionate force precisely because of that advantage in military options.

Prior to the advent of Hamas in around 1988 most of the Palestinian mainstream resistance,including terrorist actions, was carried out by groups that were way more secular and this doesn't count, imo, as " radical Islamist " terrorism. " Whether people use God as the rallying cry to free themselves from foreign occupation/domination/suppression it still remains a national liberation struggle.

Post 9/11 it is obvious that Israeli propagandists have expoilted the situation to paint a war for national liberation as part of an ideological war between Islamists and the West, in the classic interpretation of the war on terror. That is a distortion seeing as the state of Israel has been the aggressor / ocupying power and the Palestinians the victims of it.

The islamist agenda is to, allegedely, create a world wide caliphate whereas the goal of the Palestinians, including Hamas, is focused solely on the struggle for the liberation of partition plan Palestine only/or the lands occupied, and illegally settled, since 1967.

The Arab's should have behaved better.

 

[Apocalypse]

It's been a stuggle for national liberation by two peoples over the same land. One were the millenia plus occupants and the others were an recent immigrant movement that sought to liberate themselves from their European state nationalism due to persecution.




Group terrorism often just indicates a massive disparity in military capabilities in the ones engaging in it. The state terrorism is the use of disproportionate force precisely because of that advantage in military options.

Prior to the advent of Hamas in around 1988 most of the Palestinian mainstream resistance,including terrorist actions, was carried out by groups that were way more secular and this doesn't count, imo, as " radical Islamist " terrorism. " Whether people use God as the rallying cry to free themselves from foreign occupation/domination/suppression it still remains a national liberation struggle.

Post 9/11 it is obvious that Israeli propagandists have expoilted the situation to paint a war for national liberation as part of an ideological war between Islamists and the West, in the classic interpretation of the war on terror. That is a distortion seeing as the state of Israel has been the aggressor / ocupying power and the Palestinians the victims of it.

The islamist agenda is to, allegedely, create a world wide caliphate whereas the goal of the Palestinians, including Hamas, is focused solely on the struggle for the liberation of partition plan Palestine only/or the lands occupied, and illegally settled, since 1967.

I'm not interested in discussing what part of Palestinian terrorism was religious and what part was secular.
The fact is that the fight against terrorism, including religious Islamic terrorism, took place a long time before the 9/11 events and this recent injection of yours into discussion carries no special meaning when examining the right of Israelis to defend their lives against terrorists.

I don't find a need to differ between ISIS, Hezbollah, Hamas and the like. They're all terrorists all the same.

 

[oneworld2]

Am I? Am I saying that the ones who murder innocents have a right to do so?

Nope, and neither am I, despite your best efforts to twist what I am saying. We are supposed to be talking about the right to self defence. The Palestinians have the same right to it as you or anyone else. And seeing as Zionism, and then the state of Israel that was created as a result of it, has been the true and original aggression that initiated the conflict, the Palestinians remain the original victims with the right of self defence.

You are trying to say that defending Israeli state expansionism is the same as self defence of the nation, which is obviously not the case. You are occupying them and having to defend yourselves from the backlash/resistance to it but at the same time, ridiculously , claiming this is genuine self defence

That the ones who initiate hostilities are in the right?

That's exactly what you ARE saying by presenting the attacks against/resistance against a foreign military occupation and mass rights violations of another people as being a genuine self defence when it's clearly not. It's the defence of an occupation of another peoople who have the inalienable right ot free themselves from it.

I'm saying neither while you're saying both.

No, I am saying neither and you are saying one IE the defence of an occupation aimed at territorial expansion is a genuine self defence. It's not.

 

[oneworld2]

The Arab's should have behaved better.

Like an American can say this with a straight face......lols

The Arabs have behaved how a whole host of other peooples have behaved in the face of a foreign settler colonialsim threat have, they have rejected it and resorted to violence to try to do so. Just like the foreign invaders have resorted to violence to try to displace and dispossess them.

You are judging Arabs by a different standard, who knew ?

 

[oneworld2]

I'm not interested in discussing what part of Palestinian terrorism was religious and what part was secular.

Obviously, it would do your case no good to do so. You want to present a localized national liberation struggle as part of a global Islam V The West conflict when it is not. Well , not as far as the Palestinians are concerned.

The fact is that the fight against terrorism, including religious Islamic terrorism, took place a long time before the 9/11 events and this recent injection of yours into discussion carries no special meaning when examining the right of Israelis to defend their lives against terrorists.

Of course, but you couldn't exploit 9/11 until it occured and since then have disingenuously lumped the Palestinian struggle for self detemination into it when it doesn't belong there.

I don't find a need to differ between ISIS, Hezbollah, Hamas and the like. They're all terrorists all the same.

So are all the states that have designated the above groups as terrorist organisations. The West, China, Russia etc etc have all engaged in their own spectacularly destructive state terrorist campaigns, campaigns that have created body counts and destruction the nutters in the group terrorist outfits could only dream of.

 

[Apocalypse]

Nope, and neither am I, despite your best efforts to twist what I am saying. We are supposed to be talking about the right to self defence. The Palestinians have the same right to it as you or anyone else. And seeing as Zionism, and then the state of Israel that was created as a result of it, has been the true and original aggression that initiated the conflict, the Palestinians remain the original victims with the right of self defence.

You are trying to say that defending Israeli state expansionism is the same as self defence of the nation, which is obviously not the case. You are occupying them and having to defend yourselves from the backlash/resistance to it but at the same time, ridiculously , claiming this is genuine self defence



That's exactly what you ARE saying by presenting the attacks against/resistance against a foreign military occupation and mass rights violations of another people as being a genuine self defence when it's clearly not. It's the defence of an occupation of another peoople who have the inalienable right ot free themselves from it.


No, I am saying neither and you are saying one IE the defence of an occupation aimed at territorial expansion is a genuine self defence. It's not.

When a territory is exporting terrorism against your citizens then a military occupation is an entirely legitimate action.
When a terrorist is shooting at civilians, killing him is entirely legitimate.

 

[Apocalypse]

Obviously, it would do your case no good to do so. You want to present a localized national liberation struggle as part of a global Islam V The West conflict when it is not. Well , not as far as the Palestinians are concerned.



Of course, but you couldn't exploit 9/11 until it occured and since then have disingenuously lumped the Palestinian struggle for self detemination into it when it doesn't belong there.


So are all the states that have designated the above groups as terrorist organisations. The West, China, Russia etc etc have all engaged in their own spectacularly destructive state terrorist campaigns, campaigns that have created body counts and destruction the nutters in the group terrorist outfits could only dream of.

Well it is.
Wherever there are radical Islamists who attack innocents for radical Islamist reasons, it's part of that war between the civilized world and the barbaric murderers.

 

[NO1]

People who care about the Palestinians want Hamas out of Gaza...

Do you?

Exactly. Hamas only hurts the Gazans, the situation in Gaza was much better before Hamas.
It's clear that those who cheer for Hamas don't care about the Gazans or human rights at all.

 

[NO1]

Which went out the window when the Arabs attacked Israel.

They are very good at taking bad decisions. They can only blame themselves.

 

[NO1]

Which Palestine are you referring to? The one made up by the PLO and the Soviets?

That's remined me the words of Awni Abd al-Hadi, general secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, testified to Peel Commission in 1936:

"There is no such country [as Palestine].... Palestine is a term the Zionists invented.... Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

 

[oneworld2]

When a territory is exporting terrorism against your citizens then a military occupation is an entirely legitimate action.

If that were the reason there would be no need to transfer more than half a million of your own citizens into that territory and try to annexe it.

Also the thing with military occupations, they are supposed to be short term solutions. When you are still there , over half a century later, with 600,000 illegal immigrants in tow and attempts at annexing parts of that territory, the fig leaf is hiding nothing and the aggression to acquire territory through warfare is laid bare.

Many of the worst despots have used the " self defence " schtick as a fig leaf for aggression and the Israeli occupation of the Palestinians is just such an occasion.

When a terrorist is shooting at civilians, killing him is entirely legitimate.

Nobody is saying otherwise. BUT likewise, a people suffering a foreign military occupation that is violating their human rights rights en masse, killing them in droves and repressing their right to self determination they have the right to free themselves from it, including the right to engage in armed conflict. Thus when those Palestinians are attacking the state terrorists of the IDF they too are attacking legitimate targets

 

[oneworld2]

That's remined me the words of Awni Abd al-Hadi, general secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, testified to Peel Commission in 1936:

1936 predates 1947. His comment was obviously a reference to how the European colonial powers had carved up the Ottoman lands to suit themselves. But don't let taking his words out of context to support something he wouldn't have supported himself get in the way of a good story.

 

[oneworld2]

Well it is.

Well what is ?

Wherever there are radical Islamists who attack innocents for radical Islamist reasons, it's part of that war between the civilized world and the barbaric murderers.

They are not attacking for " radical Islamist reasons " though, that's the whole point. They are attacking because your own nation/people,and the movement that inspired it, have been abusing them and killing them on droves ever since they decided that Palestinian land should be their land

The West and Israel govts present themselves and want others at home to see them as civilized but they are just better at the PR than the opposition.

Your own state currently has around a million kids trapped in an open air prison, no way in, no way out, and is forcing them to drink water that will kill them. Forcing them to live without any prospect of change and murdering them if they protest about it. How is that " civilized "?

 

[Fledermaus]

Exactly. Hamas only hurts the Gazans, the situation in Gaza was much better before Hamas.
It's clear that those who cheer for Hamas don't care about the Gazans or human rights at all.

They have become leeches sucking life and resources from the Palestinian people.

 

[Apocalypse]

Well what is ?



They are not attacking for " radical Islamist reasons " though, that's the whole point. They are attacking because your own nation/people,and the movement that inspired it, have been abusing them and killing them on droves ever since they decided that Palestinian land should be their land

The West and Israel govts present themselves and want others at home to see them as civilized but they are just better at the PR than the opposition.

Your own state currently has around a million kids trapped in an open air prison, no way in, no way out, and is forcing them to drink water that will kill them. Forcing them to live without any prospect of change and murdering them if they protest about it. How is that " civilized "?

The ones who engage in terrorism know they'll mostly die and do so to become martyrs because that is their belief, the whole 72 virgins package and everything.
Trying to differ between the Islamist terrorists who target Jews and those who target others is ridiculous. Just because their victims are Jewish doesn't make their reasons any different.

 

[Apocalypse]

If that were the reason there would be no need to transfer more than half a million of your own citizens into that territory and try to annexe it.

Also the thing with military occupations, they are supposed to be short term solutions. When you are still there , over half a century later, with 600,000 illegal immigrants in tow and attempts at annexing parts of that territory, the fig leaf is hiding nothing and the aggression to acquire territory through warfare is laid bare.

Many of the worst despots have used the " self defence " schtick as a fig leaf for aggression and the Israeli occupation of the Palestinians is just such an occasion.



Nobody is saying otherwise. BUT likewise, a people suffering a foreign military occupation that is violating their human rights rights en masse, killing them in droves and repressing their right to self determination they have the right to free themselves from it, including the right to engage in armed conflict. Thus when those Palestinians are attacking the state terrorists of the IDF they too are attacking legitimate targets

It is the reason. The entire of Israel would have been under a much larger threat had it not been for the military occupation, not just settlers.
It'd have been a short-term solution if the Palestinians were ever interested in a route out. Either by stopping violence or by trying to reach an agreement.
No one is "killing them in droves" by any standard of the word though, so again you're just giving words different meanings.
They have no right to murder innocents, there is no right to murder innocents, and there is every single right for humanity to kill those who engage or support acts of terrorism.

 

[oneworld2]

Exactly. Hamas only hurts the Gazans, the situation in Gaza was much better before Hamas.
It's clear that those who cheer for Hamas don't care about the Gazans or human rights at all.

Circumstances and events matter and those who wish to place all of the blame on Hamas are just showing their willingness to swallow, unquestioningly, pro Israel propaganda

Just before the advent of Hamas control of Gaza the Israeli disengagement finally ended years of de-development of the Gazan economy ( see Sarah Roys work ) and illegal settlement of the strip itself and all of the IDF repression that accompanied them. In short these two events were always going to send the strip into a decline it would likely never recover from.

The fact that the Palestinians of Gaza outed Fatah for gross corruption and repression in the 2006 elections says that when Hamas took power it was a popular event. That said around 80% of Palestinians , in exit poll questionaires, stated that they disagreed with Hamas' hard line stance on Israel.

Instead of respecting the democratic decision of the Palestinians of Gaza ( so much for the alleged champions of democracy ) and allowing the people and Hamas to sort themselves out, the plan was to oust Hamas and foist the PA/Fatah back onto the people of Gaza.

Hamas are and have been seeking a long term ceasefire with Israel in return for the lifting of the siege that is exacerbating an already dire situation. It is a classic case, imo , of giving someone a poisened chalice so as to create a false perspective. In this case that as soon as you give Palestinians any degree of independence, however restricted and hamstrung, they use it as a base to attack Israel, presumeably because they are some sort of subhumans who cannot/will not ever be able to run their own affairs. This is obviously just junk but people have no problem peddling it so as to ensure the mistreatment of Gazans and more broadly the Palestinian of the West Bank too continues.

I don't see anyone here " cheering for Hamas " but I do see people refusing to swallow the line that everything negative about the conflict and it's ongoing intractability is to be blamed on atrributed to Hamas. The reality is very different with others being just as, or even more, responsibe for the status quo.

And those genuinely concerned with HRs violations will be able to condemn Hamas ALONG WITH those other players whose actions/policies are equally as guilty, or more guilty in scale, of violations of their own, namely the other Palestinian factions, the state of Israel and all who aid and abet her in enabling her ongoing mass HR's violations of the Palestinian people.

 

[oneworld2]

The ones who engage in terrorism know they'll mostly die and do so to become martyrs because that is their belief, the whole 72 virgins package and everything.
Trying to differ between the Islamist terrorists who target Jews and those who target others is ridiculous. Just because their victims are Jewish doesn't make their reasons any different.

Nope, what is ridiculous is the Israeli/US/Wests selective/schizophrenic assistance to those " radical Islamists". These " radical Islamists " are to be feared and destroyed if they are attacking them but are to be supported if they are attacking official enemies. Recall the assistance both the West and Israel gave to those " radical Islamists " fighting the Assad regime. Or the those attacking the Russians in Afghanistan circa 1979-89. Or those in Saudi attacking Yemen.

The reason why Israeli Jews are being targeted by some Palestinian Islamic groups is because the continue to occupy , mass abuse and murder them. That is fully understandable and has everything to do with the Israeli states continuing crimes against them, not because they are Jewish.

 

[oneworld2]

It is the reason. The entire of Israel would have been under a much larger threat had it not been for the military occupation, not just settlers.

Nope, if you want to keep your citizens safe you don't place them in the middle of a hostile territory and surround them with troops, you just occupy the locals and try to make sure they are not able to attack the citizens residing, legally, in your own country. The settlers are the Israeli human shields for land acquisition and the subsequent annexation attempts ( that nobody recognizes )and the building of the annexation wall further supports the case against the rubbish argument that it is a self defence venture.

It'd have been a short-term solution if the Palestinians were ever interested in a route out. Either by stopping violence or by trying to reach an agreement.

Kfar Etzion , the first illegal settlement was built in 1967 and the programme to settle the Palestinian lands was given the go ahead before the dust of war had even settled. The plan was always to illegally settle the land and create a fake "peace process" that would serve as a subterfuge for it.

No one is "killing them in droves" by any standard of the word though, so again you're just giving words different meanings.

Of course they are, compare how many were killed and/or injured in just the March of Return protests which took place in their own territory. Then we have the regular " mowings of the lawn " attacks by Israel. Add to that the every week occurances of Palestinian dead in both the Gaza strip and West Bank.

They have no right to murder innocents, there is no right to murder innocents, and there is every single right for humanity to kill those who engage or support acts of terrorism.

Nobody claimed there is but you only condemn it when Palestinians do it and you defend it when Israeli IDF people do it. The word for such a position is hypocrisy

 

[Apocalypse]

Nope, what is ridiculous is the Israeli/US/Wests selective/schizophrenic assistance to those " radical Islamists". These " radical Islamists " are to be feared and destroyed if they are attacking them but are to be supported if they are attacking official enemies. Recall the assistance both the West and Israel gave to those " radical Islamists " fighting the Assad regime. Or the those attacking the Russians in Afghanistan circa 1979-89. Or those in Saudi attacking Yemen.

The reason why Israeli Jews are being targeted by some Palestinian Islamic groups is because the continue to occupy , mass abuse and murder them. That is fully understandable and has everything to do with the Israeli states continuing crimes against them, not because they are Jewish.

What radical Islamists are supported by the West?

The reason Palestinian terrorists murder innocents is the same as other militant Islamist organizations.
They are not victims, they are just murderers.
The only ones who think murder is understandable are the ones who will eventually engage in murder themselves.