United Ireland

[Andalublue]

I won't shed any tears but I recognise this much. I see no benefit in raking over cold ashes to respark old hatred. There are certain parts of the world I never ever want to see again and NI is one of them.

I can understand that, IC. I think that if I'd served there in the army I'd never want to set foot there again. I've only been as a tourist and on a BBC assignment. I loved the place, but then I spent my time on the Antrim coast and down by the Strangford Lough, not on the Falls Road, getting pelted with **** and worse.

 

[wanderlust]

I'm Irish. I'm prejudiced. I want England booted from Ireland. England created an apartheid state and caused misery and death. Even united, I would expect it to take 50 years to find normalcy. Too much hatred. Close to racism. Religion and war, as well. Dumb.
.

I'm Irish as well and I agree that I would love to see a united Ireland but even if it happened there will be a lot of healing needed but I think strong and open hearts would prevail.

 

[beefheart]

http://www.economist.com/news/obituary/21719226-ira-terrorist-turned-power-sharing-first-minister-northern-ireland-was-66-obituary?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/themeanstotheendobituarymartinmcguinnessdiedonmarch21st

Martin McGuinness died.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

I'm Irish. I'm prejudiced. I want England booted from Ireland. England created an apartheid state and caused misery and death. Even united, I would expect it to take 50 years to find normalcy. Too much hatred. Close to racism. Religion and war, as well. Dumb.
.

Tiocfaidh ár lá
"Our Day Will Come"

 

[Tigerace117]

What it exposed was your lack of understanding on how messy war can be. Moreover, that something can look unpalatable from the casual, civilian observer, is crucial. We're talking about gaining the upper hand on a murderous bunch of local thugs, not entering talks with leaders of the Irish flower arranging club.

That's not what those inquiries were about. They were dealing with collusion between the RUC and the UVF.

I know. War is messy.

Show me, specifically, where I said I was happy with the RUC working with terrorists?

In other news:

Sinn Féin's Martin McGuinness dies aged 66 - Martin McGuinness, former Sinn Féin leader, dies aged 66 - BBC News

I can't say I'll be shedding a tear.

A nonchalant shrug and "war is messy" is hardly a ringing denouncement of their actions.

 

[beefheart]

I'm Irish as well and I agree that I would love to see a united Ireland but even if it happened there will be a lot of healing needed but I think strong and open hearts would prevail.

Same here. I'd like to retire there some day (at least for summers). A great deal of healing is needed.

 

[gunner]

A nonchalant shrug and "war is messy" is hardly a ringing denouncement of their actions.

Again, show me specifically where I said it? That you took an incorrect inference, is your problem.

 

[PeteEU]

O dear. Your definition of a terrorist leads a lot to be desired.

Has nothing to do with that and you know it. You are blinded by your loyalty to the UK, but those that dont have those loyalties, see what the UK did in NI as terror, and hence Thatcher would be considered one by the people on "the opposite side of you"..

For example, the people of Diego Garcia most likely consider Harold Wilson and Edward Heath as terrorists, as these 2 prime ministers forced them from their homes without any compensation.

 

[Tigerace117]

Again, show me specifically where I said it? That you took an incorrect inference, is your problem.

Rather than condemn these actions, you simply shrugged and said "war is messy".

That's pretty telling.

 

[Tigerace117]

Same old what? The genuine problems in Northern Ireland would have been sorted out at least as quick without the pointless terrorism and Troubles caused by the PIRA and the nationalists. There was some disenfranchisement and tension, but it hardly was worth decades of terrorism. Indeed, the IRA was more or less exhausted by the 90s anyway, so the shameful surrender (under American pressure - the same America whose ever terror hating citizens were instrumental in keeping the terrorist PIRA in business throughout the 70s and 80s) in 1998 doesn't seem to have been worth it.



This did not happen until the beginning of the Troubles. There was certainly disenfranchisement and occasional sectarian violence, but the idea that the PIRA was simply a self-defence force set up in reaction to constant Loyalist violence is just wrong. The PIRA radically escalated the violence.



I don't think that is quite what he said. I disagree with him, but my interpretation is more that occasional bad apples turn up, but that this doesn't change the basic dynamics.

Also, I think some of it depends on the situations. I highly doubt the British state worked with Loyalists paramilitaries to do anything but target IRA members, and only then it was hardly a widespread practice. Whether that is legitimate, I'm not sure, but it isn't the same as supporting terrorism per se as IRA members are not civilians. They are people who have taken up arms against Britain.

I highly doubt it. Without an active insurgency forcing the British public to pay attention to how things were in Northern Ireland, it's likely the Protestants would have been left to continue things in the same old way. And even nonviolence is no guarantee that the British government would have respected them. Look at what happened to Gandhi.

Despite the chest pounding, it wasn't exactly a "shameful surrender" but rather a negotiated exit. A draw, if you will.

Civil rights marches being attacked by the police and by Protestant paramilitaries isn't "an escalation of violence"? Seems to me the Catholics only ramped up to match what had been happening to them.

Any association should not have been tolerated. The UVF was just as bad, and in some cases worse, than the PIRA.

 

[gunner]

Has nothing to do with that and you know it. You are blinded by your loyalty to the UK, but those that dont have those loyalties, see what the UK did in NI as terror, and hence Thatcher would be considered one by the people on "the opposite side of you"..

For example, the people of Diego Garcia most likely consider Harold Wilson and Edward Heath as terrorists, as these 2 prime ministers forced them from their homes without any compensation.

We're not talking about other PMs, we're talking about Thatcher. That some would call Thatcher a terrorist, does not make it so, and the evidence against such a claim would be overwhelming.

 

[german hick]

I´m neither irish nore british, but if I might dare an opinion:
It´s nearly not possible for a party involved in such a horror to jump over their shadow. So it´s rubbish to say this side is more evil than that side or expect a neutral judgement of one of the two. See the palestine conflict.
But: the irish have been supressed by the british some 400 years or more, they had to watch parades of the orangemen celebrating the slaughtering and starving of their ancestors - it´s hard to expect a people wount get violent with that. And may be a little silly if so. (no excuse for terrorism, but understanding)

As for united Ireland: I saw a TV documentation about cultural things and gaelic language (spoken by the catholics and the mostly scottish rooted protestants) where both sides did cultural stuff together. That made me some hope that there will be a united Ireland by the time. By now, I don´t believe it. Not because of some Brexit reasons.

 

[gunner]

Rather than condemn these actions, you simply shrugged and said "war is messy".

That's pretty telling.

So you can't provide evidence where I said it specifically. The telling part is your support for terrorism because it suits your cause.

 

[PoS]

Same here. I'd like to retire there some day (at least for summers). A great deal of healing is needed.

Too cold for me.

 

[gunner]

Same here. I'd like to retire there some day (at least for summers). A great deal of healing is needed.

Retire to your own country :doh

 

[gunner]

Too cold for me.

And not very much to keep one entertained once you've done the Guinness factory, a few times :lol:

 

[PoS]

And not very much to keep one entertained once you've done the Guinness factory, a few times :lol:

If they give me a lifetime pass with unlimited tastings I might just retire there! :drink

 

[beefheart]

Too cold for me.

I live in 118 degree summer weather now. A normal summer would be fine.

Winters in Asia. The flights are free, just need to keep building my retirement funds..

 

[gunner]

If they give me a lifetime pass with unlimited tastings I might just retire there! :drink

I'm English, but that could sway my allegiance :lol:

 

[beefheart]

Retire to your own country :doh

I am a dual citizen with Ireland.

So there.

Costa Rica or Nicaragua look nice too!

 

[beefheart]

And not very much to keep one entertained once you've done the Guinness factory, a few times :lol:

West coast Ireland, Galway/Sligo county line area, or some of the nicer beaches down south.

 

[gunner]

I am a dual citizen with Ireland.

So there.

Costa Rica or Nicaragua look nice too!

How long have you lived in Ireland?

 

[PoS]

I'm English, but that could sway my allegiance :lol:

The only downside to this is I can see myself having to get a liver transplant in about five years. :mrgreen:

 

[beefheart]

How long have you lived in Ireland?

Never, but I have dual citizenship, passport, etc.

I've been to Ireland a few times, I love it.

 

[Tigerace117]

So you can't provide evidence where I said it specifically. The telling part is your support for terrorism because it suits your cause.

So do you. Your refusal to condemn collaboration between the police and a terrorist organization speaks volumes.