Ukraine War, USA Throwing Europe Under The Bus ?

[oneworld2]

It is my growing belief that the US proxy war with Russia via Ukraine and the reactions to it are going to see some shifts that will ensure a significant olwering of standards of living all across Europe.

The ridiculous exclusion of Russia from Europe since the end of the Cold War has ensured that Russia will gravitate towards Asia and China specifically. Thus Eurasian bloc will be the new superpower alliance that will also include India.

As Europe is currently energy reliant on Russia the cutting off of supplies to Europe is sure to come and Russia will just sell more to Eurasia

This is the great game being played out and there is a significant risk of nuclear holocaust accompanying it imo If China does fill the void for Russian energy exports the Russians will not be brought to their knees, as people wish, anytime soon and the sanctions will see a backfiring on thiose now running to out do eachother in announcing them.

If the above is to happen, China working with Russia we could see things truly escalating to new and extremely worrying times wher both China and Russia face off against US attempts to control them

 

[bluesmoke]

It is my growing belief that the US proxy war with Russia via Ukraine and the reactions to it are going to see some shifts that will ensure a significant olwering of standards of living all across Europe.

The ridiculous exclusion of Russia from Europe since the end of the Cold War has ensured that Russia will gravitate towards Asia and China specifically. Thus Eurasian bloc will be the new superpower alliance that will also include India.

As Europe is currently energy reliant on Russia the cutting off of supplies to Europe is sure to come and Russia will just sell more to Eurasia

This is the great game being played out and there is a significant risk of nuclear holocaust accompanying it imo If China does fill the void for Russian energy exports the Russians will not be brought to their knees, as people wish, anytime soon and the sanctions will see a backfiring on thiose now running to out do eachother in announcing them.

If the above is to happen, China working with Russia we could see things truly escalating to new and extremely worrying times wher both China and Russia face off against US attempts to control them

What "...exclusion of Russia from Europe..."?

 

[oneworld2]

What "...exclusion of Russia from Europe..."?

The first would be on the security front with the rejection of Russian enquiries to join NATO and the long list of NATO new members from the former eastern bloc. That has led us directly to this conflict, a conflict that is being used to drive Russia further into the arms of China

The second would see the obvious EU encroachment into the Russian sphere of economic activity/trading partners and the disputes over gas

The third would be ongoing sanctions against Russia following Crimea that have now gone on steroids with only the Europeans, imo, sure to feel the worst of it because of their energy relaince on the outside world

 

[oneworld2]

There's another aspect that will hugely impact African nations that are dependent on food stuffs fro Russia/Ukraine

Somalia imports most of its wheat from Egypt, which imports about 85% of its wheat from Russia and Ukraine.


Russia and Ukraine are major exporters of food globally, with the two exporting almost 12% of total calories traded in the world. The two countries are also leading producers of wheat which African countries heavily rely on them for. Eastern Africa, which meets most of its wheat demand through imports, gets 90% of its imported wheat from Russia and Ukraine.

Wheat and wheat products account for one third of the average cereal consumption in eastern Africa.

The Russia-Ukraine war threatens Africa's wheat supply

Russia and Ukraine are leading producers of wheat, and African countries heavily rely on them for this agricultural product.

qz.com

The ramifications are far reaching but kind of off the radar as jingoists caryy on with their jingoism here 24/7

 

[Gateman_Wen]

It is my growing belief that the US proxy war with Russia via Ukraine and the reactions to it are going to see some shifts that will ensure a significant olwering of standards of living all across Europe.

The ridiculous exclusion of Russia from Europe since the end of the Cold War has ensured that Russia will gravitate towards Asia and China specifically. Thus Eurasian bloc will be the new superpower alliance that will also include India.

As Europe is currently energy reliant on Russia the cutting off of supplies to Europe is sure to come and Russia will just sell more to Eurasia

This is the great game being played out and there is a significant risk of nuclear holocaust accompanying it imo If China does fill the void for Russian energy exports the Russians will not be brought to their knees, as people wish, anytime soon and the sanctions will see a backfiring on thiose now running to out do eachother in announcing them.

If the above is to happen, China working with Russia we could see things truly escalating to new and extremely worrying times wher both China and Russia face off against US attempts to control them

A new reason to excuse Putin.

Nice.

 

[Fledermaus]

It is my growing belief that the US proxy war with Russia via Ukraine and the reactions to it are going to see some shifts that will ensure a significant olwering of standards of living all across Europe.

The ridiculous exclusion of Russia from Europe since the end of the Cold War has ensured that Russia will gravitate towards Asia and China specifically. Thus Eurasian bloc will be the new superpower alliance that will also include India.

As Europe is currently energy reliant on Russia the cutting off of supplies to Europe is sure to come and Russia will just sell more to Eurasia

This is the great game being played out and there is a significant risk of nuclear holocaust accompanying it imo If China does fill the void for Russian energy exports the Russians will not be brought to their knees, as people wish, anytime soon and the sanctions will see a backfiring on thiose now running to out do eachother in announcing them.

If the above is to happen, China working with Russia we could see things truly escalating to new and extremely worrying times wher both China and Russia face off against US attempts to control them

Time to first stupid statement.

First sentence.

Oh, and "olwering, thiose, eachother, wher".

🤣

 

[Fledermaus]

The first would be on the security front with the rejection of Russian enquiries to join NATO and the long list of NATO new members from the former eastern bloc. That has led us directly to this conflict, a conflict that is being used to drive Russia further into the arms of China

The second would see the obvious EU encroachment into the Russian sphere of economic activity/trading partners and the disputes over gas

The third would be ongoing sanctions against Russia following Crimea that have now gone on steroids with only the Europeans, imo, sure to feel the worst of it because of their energy relaince on the outside world

relaince

🤣

 

[Fledermaus]

There's another aspect that will hugely impact African nations that are dependent on food stuffs fro Russia/Ukraine

The Russia-Ukraine war threatens Africa's wheat supply

Russia and Ukraine are leading producers of wheat, and African countries heavily rely on them for this agricultural product.

qz.com

The ramifications are far reaching but kind of off the radar as jingoists caryy on with their jingoism here 24/7

fro
caryy

🤣

 

[bluesmoke]

The first would be on the security front with the rejection of Russian enquiries to join NATO and the long list of NATO new members from the former eastern bloc. That has led us directly to this conflict, a conflict that is being used to drive Russia further into the arms of China

The second would see the obvious EU encroachment into the Russian sphere of economic activity/trading partners and the disputes over gas

The third would be ongoing sanctions against Russia following Crimea that have now gone on steroids with only the Europeans, imo, sure to feel the worst of it because of their energy relaince on the outside world

The whole purpose of NATO was to provide collective security for Europe against the then Soviet Union. So, excluding Russia from that alliance is entirely sensible. It would be nonsensical to entertain Russia, the fox, coming into the henhouse of NATO.

What, specifically, are the economic encroachments and disputes over gas that are uncalled for?

What sanctions are uncalled for, considering Russia invaded a country that has the right to self-governance? Since when does a war not have countries feeling worse for it? Europe's dependence on energy from other countries is the same with most countries in the world. It's on Europe for foolishly becoming so dependent on an enemy, Russia, for energy. Dumb.

 

[oneworld2]

The whole purpose of NATO was to provide collective security for Europe against the then Soviet Union. So, excluding Russia from that alliance is entirely sensible. It would be nonsensical to entertain Russia, the fox, coming into the henhouse of NATO.

You didn't even connect the dots. The USSR was NOT Russia. Including Russia AFTER the fall of the USSR was an option, disbanding NATO ,like the demise of the Warsaw Pact was another option. Neither were taken and NATO expansion eastwards has created this situation in Ukraine to a large degree. The people in the know warned of it.

BTW I get it, the Russians are the predators and NATO are innocent chickens lol Tell that to the people of Serbia, Libya,Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Yemen , Syria etc etc

What, specifically, are the economic encroachments and disputes over gas that are uncalled for?

The EU taking trade away from Russia in the post Cold War period

The gas trouble? Started with the Ukrainians stealing Russian gas destined for Europe as it travelled over Ukrainian territory?

Russia–Ukraine gas disputes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What sanctions are uncalled for, considering Russia invaded a country that has the right to self-governance? Since when does a war not have countries feeling worse for it? Europe's dependence on energy from other countries is the same with most countries in the world. It's on Europe for foolishly becoming so dependent on an enemy, Russia, for energy. Dumb.

I don't recall saying they were " uncalled for" so stop trying to put words into my mouth.

I said the sanctions, whether right or wrong, have further pushed a wedge between Russo/European relations and they have.

Europe is always going to be reliant on energy from outside so you can think its dumb but it is a stark reality for Europeans. They didn't rely as much on Russia when they could purchase energy from Iran but who stopped that ?

Now the Europeans are going to be reliant on US energy lol what a coup for the US energy sector. They sidelined Iran and now Russia and have the Eurpeans over a barrel. literally lol

 

[Fledermaus]

You didn't even connect the dots. The USSR was NOT Russia. Including Russia AFTER the fall of the USSR was an option, disbanding NATO ,like the demise of the Warsaw Pact was another option. Neither were taken and NATO expansion eastwards has created this situation in Ukraine to a large degree. The people in the know warned of it.

BTW I get it, the Russians are the predators and NATO are innocent chickens lol Tell that to the people of Serbia, Libya,Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Yemen , Syria etc etc


The EU taking trade away from Russia in the post Cold War period

The gas trouble? Started with the Ukrainians stealing Russian gas destined for Europe as it travelled over Ukrainian territory?

Russia–Ukraine gas disputes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't recall saying they were " uncalled for" so stop trying to put words into my mouth.

I said the sanctions, whether right or wrong, have further pushed a wedge between Russo/European relations and they have.

Europe is always going to be reliant on energy from outside so you can think its dumb but it is a stark reality for Europeans. They didn't rely as much on Russia when they could purchase energy from Iran but who stopped that ?

Now the Europeans are going to be reliant on US energy lol what a coup for the US energy sector. They sidelined Iran and now Russia and have the Eurpeans(sic) over a barrel. literally lol(sic)

What country has brutally attacked the Ukraine?

 

[bomberfox]

The whole purpose of NATO was to provide collective security for Europe against the then Soviet Union. So, excluding Russia from that alliance is entirely sensible. It would be nonsensical to entertain Russia, the fox, coming into the henhouse of NATO.

What, specifically, are the economic encroachments and disputes over gas that are uncalled for?

What sanctions are uncalled for, considering Russia invaded a country that has the right to self-governance? Since when does a war not have countries feeling worse for it? Europe's dependence on energy from other countries is the same with most countries in the world. It's on Europe for foolishly becoming so dependent on an enemy, Russia, for energy. Dumb.

Being stuck on fossil fuels as long as we have seems even worse.

 

[bluesmoke]

You didn't even connect the dots. The USSR was NOT Russia. Including Russia AFTER the fall of the USSR was an option, disbanding NATO ,like the demise of the Warsaw Pact was another option. Neither were taken and NATO expansion eastwards has created this situation in Ukraine to a large degree. The people in the know warned of it.

BTW I get it, the Russians are the predators and NATO are innocent chickens lol Tell that to the people of Serbia, Libya,Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Yemen , Syria etc etc





The EU taking trade away from Russia in the post Cold War period

The gas trouble? Started with the Ukrainians stealing Russian gas destined for Europe as it travelled over Ukrainian territory?

Russia–Ukraine gas disputes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't recall saying they were " uncalled for" so stop trying to put words into my mouth.

I said the sanctions, whether right or wrong, have further pushed a wedge between Russo/European relations and they have.

Europe is always going to be reliant on energy from outside so you can think its dumb but it is a stark reality for Europeans. They didn't rely as much on Russia when they could purchase energy from Iran but who stopped that ?

Now the Europeans are going to be reliant on US energy lol what a coup for the US energy sector. They sidelined Iran and now Russia and have the Eurpeans over a barrel. literally lol

Unlike what Russia is doing, NATO expansion eastward was not by invasion/aggression. Russia is and has been the aggressor. People in the know understand you can’t give in to a bully. If you build a clubhouse to keep the bully away, you don’t then invite him in. It doesn’t matter that Russia was once the Soviet Union, before when they were also Russia.

“Taking trade away”? You mean by competition? Please advise what the EU did that was unjust.

You provide no proof that Ukraine was “…stealing Russian gas…”

You claimed "...exclusion of Russia from Europe..." and as evidence of that mentioned, among other things, “…ongoing sanctions against Russia”. So, to determine if said sanctions were justified, I asked you what of them were uncalled for. That’s not putting words in your mouth. Settle down.

That “wedge” was caused by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine’s Crimea. Russia threw the first punch. Further pushing in that wedge was fighting back with sanctions. We should have pushed that wedge in further after the invasion of Crimea instead of waiting until Russia invaded eastern Ukraine.

You have no proof that Europe imported any less % oil and gas from Russia before stopping importing from Iran.

The stark reality is continued dependence on oil and gas while failing to more fully shift to renewables.

You’ve no proof that the US will be producing enough oil and gas to export to Europe.

Everybody is paying the price for defending against Russia’s aggression. When fighting a bully like Putin, you’re going to get hit.

 

[snakestretcher]

It is my growing belief that the US proxy war with Russia via Ukraine and the reactions to it are going to see some shifts that will ensure a significant olwering of standards of living all across Europe.

The ridiculous exclusion of Russia from Europe since the end of the Cold War has ensured that Russia will gravitate towards Asia and China specifically. Thus Eurasian bloc will be the new superpower alliance that will also include India.

As Europe is currently energy reliant on Russia the cutting off of supplies to Europe is sure to come and Russia will just sell more to Eurasia

This is the great game being played out and there is a significant risk of nuclear holocaust accompanying it imo If China does fill the void for Russian energy exports the Russians will not be brought to their knees, as people wish, anytime soon and the sanctions will see a backfiring on thiose now running to out do eachother in announcing them.

If the above is to happen, China working with Russia we could see things truly escalating to new and extremely worrying times wher both China and Russia face off against US attempts to control them

It's already happening.

People face biggest drop in living standards since 1956

Wages will lag soaring prices meaning the biggest drop in standards since 1956, says the OBR.

www.bbc.co.uk

UK households face biggest fall in living standards since 1950s, say experts

Russian invasion of Ukraine could further hike global energy prices and cut real incomes by 3.1%, economists fear

www.theguardian.com

UK faces worst drop in living standards since 1970s, economists warn

Households will see incomes drop by £1,000 on average in the next financial year, according to a new analysis from the Resolution Foundation think tank

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Fishking]

It is my growing belief that the US proxy war with Russia via Ukraine and the reactions to it are going to see some shifts that will ensure a significant olwering of standards of living all across Europe.

The ridiculous exclusion of Russia from Europe since the end of the Cold War has ensured that Russia will gravitate towards Asia and China specifically. Thus Eurasian bloc will be the new superpower alliance that will also include India.

As Europe is currently energy reliant on Russia the cutting off of supplies to Europe is sure to come and Russia will just sell more to Eurasia

This is the great game being played out and there is a significant risk of nuclear holocaust accompanying it imo If China does fill the void for Russian energy exports the Russians will not be brought to their knees, as people wish, anytime soon and the sanctions will see a backfiring on thiose now running to out do eachother in announcing them.

If the above is to happen, China working with Russia we could see things truly escalating to new and extremely worrying times wher both China and Russia face off against US attempts to control them

The EU is doing their own sanctions and economic policies. Why are you blaming that on the US?

 

[Fledermaus]

The EU is doing their own sanctions and economic policies. Why are you blaming that on the US?

Because Oneworld2 is Oneworld2.

 

[watsup]

Because Oneworld2 is Oneworld2.

Putin loves him.

 

[oneworld2]

The EU is doing their own sanctions and economic policies. Why are you blaming that on the US?

Because the whole war in Ukraine is largely down to US actions . From the US push for eastward expansion of NATO right up to the US backed 2014 coup which started the civil war that has raged for 7 years and cost thousands of lives. To the none implementation of Minsk etc etc

As is so often the case, we see US interference in the situation having a wholly negative impact and causing huge losses of life, destruction of entire countries, humanitarian nightmares.

It's use of Ukraine as a US proxy and its people as pawns is vile and it has everyone else shuffling around dealing with the consequences of what is US hegemonic lunacy

 

[oneworld2]

It's already happening.

People face biggest drop in living standards since 1956

Wages will lag soaring prices meaning the biggest drop in standards since 1956, says the OBR.

www.bbc.co.uk

UK households face biggest fall in living standards since 1950s, say experts

Russian invasion of Ukraine could further hike global energy prices and cut real incomes by 3.1%, economists fear

www.theguardian.com

UK faces worst drop in living standards since 1970s, economists warn

Households will see incomes drop by £1,000 on average in the next financial year, according to a new analysis from the Resolution Foundation think tank

www.independent.co.uk

And it's going to get worse. So while people are listening to all the jingoists and dying their hair blue and yellow they appear blissfully unaware of what is about to befall them off the back of this

 

[Fishking]

Because the whole war in Ukraine is largely down to US actions . From the US push for eastward expansion of NATO right up to the US backed 2014 coup which started the civil war that has raged for 7 years and cost thousands of lives. To the none implementation of Minsk etc etc

As is so often the case, we see US interference in the situation having a wholly negative impact and causing huge losses of life, destruction of entire countries, humanitarian nightmares.

It's use of Ukraine as a US proxy and its people as pawns is vile and it has everyone else shuffling around dealing with the consequences of what is US hegemonic lunacy

You're aware that NATO membership requires unanimous approval, right? So the US is only one vote while the rest have come from European nations.

 

[Quag]

I am sure this will be a fruitful thread

 

[watsup]

Because the whole war in Ukraine is largely down to US actions . From the US push for eastward expansion of NATO right up to the US backed 2014 coup which started the civil war that has raged for 7 years and cost thousands of lives. To the none implementation of Minsk etc etc

As is so often the case, we see US interference in the situation having a wholly negative impact and causing huge losses of life, destruction of entire countries, humanitarian nightmares.

It's use of Ukraine as a US proxy and its people as pawns is vile and it has everyone else shuffling around dealing with the consequences of what is US hegemonic lunacy

Same old lies, over and over. One trick pony.

 

[oneworld2]

Unlike what Russia is doing, NATO expansion eastward was not by invasion/aggression. Russia is and has been the aggressor. People in the know understand you can’t give in to a bully. If you build a clubhouse to keep the bully away, you don’t then invite him in. It doesn’t matter that Russia was once the Soviet Union, before when they were also Russia.

“Taking trade away”? You mean by competition? Please advise what the EU did that was unjust.

You provide no proof that Ukraine was “…stealing Russian gas…”

You claimed "...exclusion of Russia from Europe..." and as evidence of that mentioned, among other things, “…ongoing sanctions against Russia”. So, to determine if said sanctions were justified, I asked you what of them were uncalled for. That’s not putting words in your mouth. Settle down.

That “wedge” was caused by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine’s Crimea. Russia threw the first punch. Further pushing in that wedge was fighting back with sanctions. We should have pushed that wedge in further after the invasion of Crimea instead of waiting until Russia invaded eastern Ukraine.

You have no proof that Europe imported any less % oil and gas from Russia before stopping importing from Iran.

The stark reality is continued dependence on oil and gas while failing to more fully shift to renewables.

You’ve no proof that the US will be producing enough oil and gas to export to Europe.

Everybody is paying the price for defending against Russia’s aggression. When fighting a bully like Putin, you’re going to get hit.

The whole story of NATO and NATO nations in the post Cold War period is a list of aggressions and aggressive expansionism. You have been indoctrinated by western propaganda to believe its the old enemy, Russia that is the problem. It may come as a surprise to you but the biggest glocal bully today and for the post WW2 period is your own nation

Yep, taking trade away from states tends to engender hostility. If you want to know more about how states fight for trade look at your own " Banana Wars"

I provided the wiki link, so don't say I didn't supply any evidence. If you had bothered reading it you would see that the Ukrainians admitted to it

Sanctions are warfare by other means. The Europeans ended up more reliant on Russian energy in part by the US sanctions on Iran. Do you undertsand what sanctions do? They can cripple weaker nations and kill as many people as some wars have. Look at the horror show NOT being shown to you wrt Afghanistan. Child mortality rates are rising sharply, food insecurity in rampant and it's down to US sanctions and the fact that the Afghan national coffers were robbed but you are being focused on Ukraine only

The first " punch" was the US backed coup in Ukraine that overthrew the democratically elected leadership

The US has just clinched a huge energy deal to supply energy to the EU. How come you don't know that?

No, everyone is paying for US hegemony, most with their economies and the Ukrainians, Yemenese, Syrians, Libyans etc etc with their lives

 

[American]

The first would be on the security front with the rejection of Russian enquiries to join NATO and the long list of NATO new members from the former eastern bloc. That has led us directly to this conflict, a conflict that is being used to drive Russia further into the arms of China

The second would see the obvious EU encroachment into the Russian sphere of economic activity/trading partners and the disputes over gas

The third would be ongoing sanctions against Russia following Crimea that have now gone on steroids with only the Europeans, imo, sure to feel the worst of it because of their energy relaince on the outside world

Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule

George Robertson recalls Russian president did not want to wait in line with ‘countries that don’t matter’

www.theguardian.com

Okay, so they never applied, and therefore were never REJECTED. They wanted preferential treatment.

 

[oneworld2]

You're aware that NATO membership requires unanimous approval, right? So the US is only one vote while the rest have come from European nations.

You seem to think that that's what happens, everyone is equal and allowed an equal say. That's not how it works at all in the real world. Ukraine is a classic example. The 2008 Bucharest summary statement, at the insistance of the USA alone, despite the German and French protestations, Ukraine and Georgia were told they would be " future members" of NATO

You can see the US control over the UN, the World Bank, the IMF , NATO, well, if you look you will see it. Obviously, you have to go digging they're not going to blast this from the hilltops