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Ukraine War, USA Throwing Europe Under The Bus ?


Okay, so they never applied, and therefore were never REJECTED. They wanted preferential treatment.


That's why I used the term " enquired" and not " applied". This is how real diplomacy works. They sounded out the Americans and were left in no uncertain terms that NATO is not going to have you in it. It was set up with the USSR/Russia in in sights and nothing has cjanged, even after the end of the Cold war.
 
The whole story of NATO and NATO nations in the post Cold War period is a list of aggressions and aggressive expansionism. You have been indoctrinated by western propaganda to believe its the old enemy, Russia that is the problem. It may come as a surprise to you but the biggest glocal(sic) bully today and for the post WW2 period is your own nation

Yep, taking trade away from states tends to engender hostility. If you want to know more about how states fight for trade look at your own " Banana Wars"

I provided the wiki link, so don't say I didn't supply any evidence. If you had bothered reading it you would see that the Ukrainians admitted to it

Sanctions are warfare by other means. The Europeans ended up more reliant on Russian energy in part by the US sanctions on Iran. Do you undertsand(sic) what sanctions do? They can cripple weaker nations and kill as many people as some wars have. Look at the horror show NOT being shown to you wrt Afghanistan. Child mortality rates are rising sharply, food insecurity in rampant and it's down to US sanctions and the fact that the Afghan national coffers were robbed but you are being focused on Ukraine only

The first " punch" was the US backed coup in Ukraine that overthrew the democratically elected leadership

The US has just clinched a huge energy deal to supply energy to the EU. How come you don't know that?

No, everyone is paying for US hegemony, most with their economies and the Ukrainians, Yemenese, Syrians, Libyans etc etc with their lives

NATO expansion was because nations joined that wanted protection from RUSSIAN aggression.

RUSSIAN expansion was due to illegal annexation and invasions.

Derp
 
The whole story of NATO and NATO nations in the post Cold War period is a list of aggressions and aggressive expansionism. You have been indoctrinated by western propaganda to believe its the old enemy, Russia that is the problem. It may come as a surprise to you but the biggest glocal bully today and for the post WW2 period is your own nation

Yep, taking trade away from states tends to engender hostility. If you want to know more about how states fight for trade look at your own " Banana Wars"

I provided the wiki link, so don't say I didn't supply any evidence. If you had bothered reading it you would see that the Ukrainians admitted to it

Sanctions are warfare by other means. The Europeans ended up more reliant on Russian energy in part by the US sanctions on Iran. Do you undertsand what sanctions do? They can cripple weaker nations and kill as many people as some wars have. Look at the horror show NOT being shown to you wrt Afghanistan. Child mortality rates are rising sharply, food insecurity in rampant and it's down to US sanctions and the fact that the Afghan national coffers were robbed but you are being focused on Ukraine only

The first " punch" was the US backed coup in Ukraine that overthrew the democratically elected leadership

The US has just clinched a huge energy deal to supply energy to the EU. How come you don't know that?

No, everyone is paying for US hegemony, most with their economies and the Ukrainians, Yemenese, Syrians, Libyans etc etc with their lives

Same old lies.
 
That's why I used the term " enquired" and not " applied". This is how real diplomacy works. They sounded out the Americans and were left in no uncertain terms that NATO is not going to have you in it. It was set up with the USSR/Russia in in sights and nothing has cjanged, even after the end of the Cold war.

See post #28.
 
You seem to think that that's what happens, everyone is equal and allowed an equal say. That's not how it works at all in the real world. Ukraine is a classic example. The 2008 Bucharest summary statement, at the insistance of the USA alone, despite the German and French protestations, Ukraine and Georgia were told they would be " future members" of NATO

You can see the US control over the UN, the World Bank, the IMF , NATO, well, if you look you will see it. Obviously, you have to go digging they're not going to blast this from the hilltops
Every country has their own agency, that is a fact. Yes, they US has significant influence but you don't get to blame the actions of others on someone else. Hell, the EU has a bigger economy than the US so who has the economic power there? At the very least they are on equal footing.
 
Every country has their own agency, that is a fact. Yes, they US has significant influence but you don't get to blame the actions of others on someone else. Hell, the EU has a bigger economy than the US so who has the economic power there? At the very least they are on equal footing.

If what you say was true the US wouldn't be ordering the Europeans around , making unilateral decisions that shit all over the EU ( remember Newlands comment)

It's not an even system. The US won over on the terminology of the Bucharesr 2008 summit, Germany and France were ignored. The Iran Nuclear Deal ? Europe was ignored. I could go on.
 
If what you say was true the US wouldn't be ordering the Europeans around , making unilateral decisions that shit all over the EU ( remember Newlands comment)

It's not an even system. The US won over on the terminology of the Bucharesr 2008 summit, Germany and France were ignored. The Iran Nuclear Deal ? Europe was ignored. I could go on.
They still have agency. They can stop allowing the US to do certain things. They just don't.
 
If what you say was true the US wouldn't be ordering the Europeans around , making unilateral decisions that shit all over the EU ( remember Newlands comment)

It's not an even system. The US won over on the terminology of the Bucharesr 2008 summit, Germany and France were ignored. The Iran Nuclear Deal ? Europe was ignored. I could go on.

Putin loves you.
 
They still have agency. They can stop allowing the US to do certain things. They just don't.

They don't because sdating no to the mafia don has consequences, even for the EU nations. The third worlders know only too well themselves.

Seriously, I don't think you understand just how overwhelming the US system is in both economic and military power
 
They don't because sdating no to the mafia don has consequences, even for the EU nations. The third worlders know only too well themselves.

Seriously, I don't think you understand just how overwhelming the US system is in both economic and military power
The US wouldn't actually be able to do anything about the EU standing firm, if that's what they wanted to. If the US threw a fit over it that would lose them most of their allies. We're strong, but we cannot stand alone.
 
What proxy war?
The opening post is straight up asinine.

I'm running out of time doing the research necessary to give informed response to a poster obviously not bothering to inform himself.
 
I'm running out of time doing the research necessary to give informed response to a poster obviously not bothering to inform himself.

I back what I say with evidence and you haven't been bothered to even read it, so your words are hollow
 
I back what I say with evidence and you haven't been bothered to even read it, so your words are hollow

No, you do not. I can’t remember the last time that you provided an actual link to buttress your steady stream of Putin propaganda.
 
The US wouldn't actually be able to do anything about the EU standing firm, if that's what they wanted to. If the US threw a fit over it that would lose them most of their allies. We're strong, but we cannot stand alone.


That's the whole point about the Ukraine isn't it.

Everyone should know that a French German refusal to allow Ukraine into NATO leaves them out. So why give them hope by stating that they will be future members? That's what the US insusted on in 2008. They repeated this to Zelensky even during this crisis.

This is what people are saying when they say the US has led the Ukrainians up the primrose path. They have been led a dance, might be in might not be in, in order to needle Putin and Russia. The Russians can't take the chance that the Germans/French might not some day cave in
 
That's the whole point about the Ukraine isn't it.

Everyone should know that a French German refusal to allow Ukraine into NATO leaves them out. So why give them hope by stating that they will be future members? That's what the US insusted on in 2008. They repeated this to Zelensky even during this crisis.

This is what people are saying when they say the US has led the Ukrainians up the primrose path. They have been led a dance, might be in might not be in, in order to needle Putin and Russia. The Russians can't take the chance that the Germans/French might not some day cave in

Prove it.
 
The Bucharest summit of 2008 resulted in Germany and France vetoing the entry of Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. To call that a mere protestation is total nonsense, seeing how it made said entry impossible.
 
The whole story of NATO and NATO nations in the post Cold War period is a list of aggressions and aggressive expansionism. You have been indoctrinated by western propaganda to believe its the old enemy, Russia that is the problem. It may come as a surprise to you but the biggest glocal bully today and for the post WW2 period is your own nation

Yep, taking trade away from states tends to engender hostility. If you want to know more about how states fight for trade look at your own " Banana Wars"

I provided the wiki link, so don't say I didn't supply any evidence. If you had bothered reading it you would see that the Ukrainians admitted to it

Sanctions are warfare by other means. The Europeans ended up more reliant on Russian energy in part by the US sanctions on Iran. Do you undertsand what sanctions do? They can cripple weaker nations and kill as many people as some wars have. Look at the horror show NOT being shown to you wrt Afghanistan. Child mortality rates are rising sharply, food insecurity in rampant and it's down to US sanctions and the fact that the Afghan national coffers were robbed but you are being focused on Ukraine only

The first " punch" was the US backed coup in Ukraine that overthrew the democratically elected leadership

The US has just clinched a huge energy deal to supply energy to the EU. How come you don't know that?

No, everyone is paying for US hegemony, most with their economies and the Ukrainians, Yemenese, Syrians, Libyans etc etc with their lives

You refuse to forthrightly respond to my post and instead shift the discussion to other talking points of your own, accusing me of not knowing what you say, which you can't prove any more than what you said in your post from before. I'll be happy to respond to what you point out if you would respond to what I've pointed out to you. However, if you can't debate honestly, see you on another thread.
 
You've provided no evidence.

I don't have to because it's obvious to any who have a scintilla of independent thought within them.

Find the answers to these questions and understand why this is a clear proxy war.

Who was the state that insisted, against others, that Ukraine and Georgia be invited to join NATO?

Who was involved in picking some of the post coup govt in Ukraine circa 2014 ? This govt and subsequent ones targeting ethnic Russian Ukrainians?

Who has been out in Ukraine training their military?

Who is arming them and have been since Trump ?

All the warnings were given to the US and the US alone ignored them because? The want to remain the global hegemon and Russia wasn't happy being pushed around or threatened by NATO. The same scenario will play out with China in the not too distant future, likely over Taiwan .

You can bury your head in the sand if you want to but others can see this for what it is.
 
I don't have to because it's obvious to any who have a scintilla of independent thought within them.

Find the answers to these questions and understand why this is a clear proxy war.

Who was the state that insisted, against others, that Ukraine and Georgia be invited to join NATO?

Who was involved in picking some of the post coup govt in Ukraine circa 2014 ? This govt and subsequent ones targeting ethnic Russian Ukrainians?

Who has been out in Ukraine training their military?

Who is arming them and have been since Trump ?

All the warnings were given to the US and the US alone ignored them because? The want to remain the global hegemon and Russia wasn't happy being pushed around or threatened by NATO. The same scenario will play out with China in the not too distant future, likely over Taiwan .

You can bury your head in the sand if you want to but others can see this for what it is.

Putin propaganda, accompanied by outright lies, as usual.
 
The Bucharest summit of 2008 resulted in Germany and France vetoing the entry of Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. To call that a mere protestation is total nonsense, seeing how it made said entry impossible.


Your penchant to not quote directly nearly made me miss this snide post.

I never said they " merely protested " in the post you refer to btw, so you need to resist the urge to misrepresent peoples posts so as to help you with your strawmen. I said, correctly, that the US insisted that the promise of future NATO membership be in the summit summary statement and it is.

This is another part of the post of mine you chose to misrepresent completely

Everyone should know that a French German refusal to allow Ukraine into NATO leaves them out. So why give them hope by stating that they will be future members? That's what the US insusted on in 2008. They repeated this to Zelensky even during this crisis.



NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP. Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications. We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting. Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.


That's where the US insistence takes place.

Your decision to snide a post of mine again, without the integrity to actually quote it again, has failed miserably again.
 
Putin propaganda, accompanied by outright lies, as usual.



Hollow words that actually offer NOTHING in the way of refutations. Your posts are rubbish and consistantly so.
 
I don't have to because it's obvious to any who have a scintilla of independent thought within them.

...

I'm replying to see how this discussion goes; especially to see what @bluesmoke's points and position are.
 
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