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Ukraine anger as Macron says 'Don't humiliate "russia'

I really miss the old 'inandout' gif we had, speaks volumes for this thread.

Macron could have phrase this much better but the point stands, the more Putin feels humiliated the more likely he is to act irrationally if not upping the game.
 
THIS ONE IS GOOD :
Ukraine rebuked French President Emmanuel #Macron on Saturday for saying it was important not to "humiliate" #Russia, a position Ukrainian foreign minister Dmitro Kuleba said "can only humiliate France."
 
Litwin said:
Guys , whats wrong with modern French politicians ? and whats wrong with France in General ?


Russia was not humiliated over its invasion.
Mr Macron said it was crucial President Vladimir Putin had a way out of what he called a "fundamental error".
But Dmytro Kuleba said allies should "better focus on how to put Russia in its place" as it "humiliates itself".
Mr Macron has repeatedly spoken to Mr Putin by phone in an effort to broker a ceasefire and negotiations.
The French attempts to maintain a dialogue with the Kremlin leader contrast with the US and UK positions.
Foreign minister Kuleba said in a tweet that "calls to avoid humiliation of Russia can only humiliate France and every other country that would call for it".

www.bbc.com

Ukraine anger as Macron says 'Don't humiliate Russia'

The French leader wants to give Vladimir Putin an "exit ramp", but Ukraine rejects that stance.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

THE PENNY MAGAZINE - Page 466 - Google Books Result​

https://books.google.se › books


1845
But Philip and all France Alps . insisted , on the contrary , that a ... the past history of every great and warlike nation France and the Assembly of Paris

Empires of Islam in Renaissance Historical Thought​

https://books.google.se › books


Margaret MESERVE, ‎Margaret Meserve · 2009 · ‎History
His aim throughout the passage is to establish the Franks and the Turks as the only two truly warlike nations in the Holy Land, equally matched in strength ..


Click to expand...

Nothing is wrong. As much as I hate what Russia has done, humiliating them as they justly deserve would trap them in a corner and make them consider options we don't want considered.
Probably.
I'm assuming that's what Macron is thinking.

I suppose it depends what form that humiliation takes - I personally think that Russia has already humiliated themselves by ****ing up so bad.

But rubbing their face in it probably won't help, at least in the short term.
 
MTAtech said:
Macron is right, to a point. JFK in the Cuban Missile Crisis sounded the same thing. That’s why he secretly offered Kruschev a secret deal to remove missiles from Turkey after the USSR withdrew the Cuban missiles. JFK didn’t want to humiliate Kruschev internally, which would influence him not to withdraw. This way, Kruschev could say he got a trade.

In this situation, Putin needs to be humiliated for egregious actions. Having NATO superior weapons sent to Ukraine can win a war of attrition.
Click to expand...

'Egg-zactly' lol.

We live in a dangerous world in which realpolitik is a real thing. I ****ing hate Putin and the Putin fanboys suck as well - I wanna make that absolutely clear. But we also need to be realists. We waited 8-14 years before we even lifted a finger to stop him. In that time, Putin carved out spaces, some of which he has Russified. It's not as easy as snapping a finger and rewinding it back to a point in time we would prefer.

Putin and his regime has paid a price. We have also all paid a price. The Ukrainians have also paid a price - the ultimate price. They say that politics is the art of the possible. I say that more is possible when all sides in a conflict feel pain and realize that it's in everyone's interests to end the conflict. People say "Well Putin will just rearm". Maybe, maybe not. That is something that would have to be a key term in any negotiation: how to ensure that Putin's warmongering is done.
 
Litwin said:
THIS ONE IS GOOD :
Ukraine rebuked French President Emmanuel #Macron on Saturday for saying it was important not to "humiliate" #Russia, a position Ukrainian foreign minister Dmitro Kuleba said "can only humiliate France."
Click to expand...

Once again, given that Ukraine is the one going hat in hand to the west for everything, perhaps they might want to avoid insulting the countries they are begging for help?
 
The Mark said:
Nothing is wrong. As much as I hate what Russia has done, humiliating them as they justly deserve would trap them in a corner and make them consider options we don't want considered.
Probably.
I'm assuming that's what Macron is thinking.

I suppose it depends what form that humiliation takes - I personally think that Russia has already humiliated themselves by ****ing up so bad.

But rubbing their face in it probably won't help, at least in the short term.
Click to expand...

I personally don't give a **** if Russia or Putin is humiliated - they should be humiliated. Russia should be humbled by the fact that they could not accomplish through force what they though they could accomplish. But at the same time, this is also an opportunity to not so much show mercy, but to show Russia that the things that they thought they had to achieve through force backfired, and that there might be a better way.

I agree that as long as Putin is in charge, dealing with Russia is going to be damn difficult. But we don't always have a choice in whom we deal with. I'm sure we'd rather not be dealing with Kim Jong Un, but do we have a choice? I'm sure we'd rather not be dealing with the CCP and Xi Jinping, but do we have a choice? We'd rather not deal with the Ayatollah, but again, what choice is there?

What we have now, and what we did not have 3 months ago, is leverage. We should use it. But we should also see if there's a way we can reassure the other side that we're not quite the threat that they claim we are. I, for one, hope that beyond assurances of Ukraine's (whatever is left of it) sovereignty, we can begin having serious discussions about reducing the amount of nuclear weapons worldwide - including in our own arsenal.
 
Litwin said:
Guys , whats wrong with modern French politicians ? and whats wrong with France in General ?


Russia was not humiliated over its invasion.
Mr Macron said it was crucial President Vladimir Putin had a way out of what he called a "fundamental error".
But Dmytro Kuleba said allies should "better focus on how to put Russia in its place" as it "humiliates itself".
Mr Macron has repeatedly spoken to Mr Putin by phone in an effort to broker a ceasefire and negotiations.
The French attempts to maintain a dialogue with the Kremlin leader contrast with the US and UK positions.
Foreign minister Kuleba said in a tweet that "calls to avoid humiliation of Russia can only humiliate France and every other country that would call for it".

www.bbc.com

Ukraine anger as Macron says 'Don't humiliate Russia'

The French leader wants to give Vladimir Putin an "exit ramp", but Ukraine rejects that stance.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

THE PENNY MAGAZINE - Page 466 - Google Books Result​

https://books.google.se › books


1845
But Philip and all France Alps . insisted , on the contrary , that a ... the past history of every great and warlike nation France and the Assembly of Paris

Empires of Islam in Renaissance Historical Thought​

https://books.google.se › books


Margaret MESERVE, ‎Margaret Meserve · 2009 · ‎History
His aim throughout the passage is to establish the Franks and the Turks as the only two truly warlike nations in the Holy Land, equally matched in strength ..


Click to expand...

Well, take a look at history, the French have never won a war, except the one led by a woman, Joan of Ark and that ultimately ended badly for Joan. The French always lose in wars, and always rely on someone else to come along and save their a
 
Gatsby said:
At the outset of this war, I was on board with providing Putin with a face-saving offramp so that he could back away from the mess he created without too many consequences. But I'm increasingly uninterested in doing this. No one is humiliating Putin - he did that to himself. At this point Ukraine (and its Western allies) can push for a total victory in the Donbass and the Black Sea. If they still want to give Putin a face-saving concession, maybe Crimea is on the table, but that's up to Ukraine.

If Putin is humiliated and trapped in an unwinnable situation of his own making, that's no one's fault but his own. The Russian political system can figure out what should be done about him.
Click to expand...
Putin is destroying a country and you want to give him something? I'd say take everything from him, but ole Putin isn't done yet and Biden doesn't have a clue how to help bring that war to a close. Joe pisses himself when he things about Putin, you know the guy who didn't want Joe to be President because Putin is afraid of Joe.
 
Integrityrespec said:
Well, take a look at history, the French have never won a war, except the one led by a woman, Joan of Ark and that ultimately ended badly for Joan. The French always lose in wars, and always rely on someone else to come along and save their a
Click to expand...

World War One not ringing a bell?

Napoleon kicked just about every country in Europe’s ass
 
Integrityrespec said:
Putin is destroying a country and you want to give him something?
Click to expand...
What? No, exactly the opposite. Did you read my post?
I'd say take everything from him, but ole Putin isn't done yet and Biden doesn't have a clue how to help bring that war to a close. Joe pisses himself when he things about Putin, you know the guy who didn't want Joe to be President because Putin is afraid of Joe.
Click to expand...
I'm interested in the topic of this thread, not partisan pissing contests.
 
Gatsby said:
Not necessarily NATO troops. But what the US is currently doing (i.e. supplying Ukraine with lots of weapons) seems to be working. I think we should just continue doing that.
Click to expand...
I'm sure Russian generals are looking at this from a long term perspective too, and if NATO nations and others continue to send weapons, then it means there could be a prolonged insurgency even if Russians are able to take the major cities. At the same time though, this game of economic "uncle" is going to be hard to maintain. The oil prices should be an indicator of what the coming food issues are going to be given the amount of Russian and Ukrainian wheat is affected by this conflict.
 
Gatsby said:
At the outset of this war, I was on board with providing Putin with a face-saving offramp so that he could back away from the mess he created without too many consequences. But I'm increasingly uninterested in doing this. No one is humiliating Putin - he did that to himself. At this point Ukraine (and its Western allies) can push for a total victory in the Donbass and the Black Sea. If they still want to give Putin a face-saving concession, maybe Crimea is on the table, but that's up to Ukraine.

If Putin is humiliated and trapped in an unwinnable situation of his own making, that's no one's fault but his own. The Russian political system can figure out what should be done about him.
Click to expand...

Plus, Putin's days now appear to be numbered.
As bad as it may sound, the "exit ramp" that may wind up taking out all the other options may wind up being Putin's death from advanced stage cancer.

I don't have a crystal ball or anything like that but it's remotely possible that all Zelenskyy has to do is survive the next hundred days and the world may wind up being rid of Putin altogether.
Of course, that's also bad news for Trump as well, because he may not have as much social capital with whoever takes Putin's place.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Which is like arguing US defeat in Vietnam would end our own wars of aggression. Iraq shows otherwise…….very clearly.

The fact of the matter is that even if Putin died tomorrow, there’s absolutely no guarantee his replacement would be pro Western.
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Neither Vietnam nor Iraq can be fairly called wars of aggression. Both were responses to perceived aggression, real in the first case and negligible in the second. Vietnam was a war of containment. Iraq was certainly manipulated by inside players with something to gain, but the American people were convinced that it was just retaliation.
 
Ouroboros said:
Neither Vietnam nor Iraq can be fairly called wars of aggression. Both were responses to perceived aggression, real in the first case and negligible in the second. Vietnam was a war of containment. Iraq was certainly manipulated by inside players with something to gain, but the American people were convinced that it was just retaliation.
Click to expand...

And they were completely and utterly wrong. Being convinced that your aggression is a good thing does not make it any less aggression. Iraq did not pose any sort of threat to the United States. Neither did North Vietnam, for that matter.

The entire “containment” idea was faulty from the start, especially as the United States propped up brutal tyrants in the name of “freedom” and democracy
 
Tigerace117 said:
And they were completely and utterly wrong. Being convinced that your aggression is a good thing does not make it any less aggression. Iraq did not pose any sort of threat to the United States. Neither did North Vietnam, for that matter.

The entire “containment” idea was faulty from the start, especially as the United States propped up brutal tyrants in the name of “freedom” and democracy
Click to expand...

It absolutely makes a difference if the people fighting the war believe it to be one of just retaliation. Any manipulation by America’s rulers is entirely on them and no one else. And back in the Day you had no more knowledge of Iraq’s relative “innocence” re 9-11 than any other citizen did.

Your opinion of containment is dismissed.
 
Ouroboros said:
It absolutely makes a difference if the people fighting the war believe it to be one of just retaliation. Any manipulation by America’s rulers is entirely on them and no one else. And back in the Day you had no more knowledge of Iraq’s relative “innocence” re 9-11 than any other citizen did.

Your opinion of containment is dismissed.
Click to expand...

No, it doesn’t. There’s plenty of people in Russia who see their war in Ukraine as entirely justified. That doesn’t make it any less of a war of aggression.

There’s nothing “relative” about it— Saddam didn’t have anything to do with the attacks. America was desperate for any excuse to make itself “look strong”, and Iraq was seen as a perfect target. Hence why all those resources were stripped away from the actual fight in Afghanistan. Americans enthusiastically supporting a war of aggression doesn’t change what it is.

The historical facts are very clear. America’s propping up of brutal tyrants did nothing to “contain” communism, and North Vietnam was never any sort of threat to the US.
 
The French always have been one to let the side down.
 
Integrityrespec said:
Well, take a look at history, the French have never won a war,
Click to expand...

THEY won more battles than any other nation on the planet. thats why Macron´s behavior is very, very strange ....

 
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