Ukraine anger as Macron says 'Don't humiliate "russia'

[Litwin]

Guys , whats wrong with modern French politicians ? and whats wrong with France in General ?


Russia was not humiliated over its invasion.
Mr Macron said it was crucial President Vladimir Putin had a way out of what he called a "fundamental error".
But Dmytro Kuleba said allies should "better focus on how to put Russia in its place" as it "humiliates itself".
Mr Macron has repeatedly spoken to Mr Putin by phone in an effort to broker a ceasefire and negotiations.
The French attempts to maintain a dialogue with the Kremlin leader contrast with the US and UK positions.
Foreign minister Kuleba said in a tweet that "calls to avoid humiliation of Russia can only humiliate France and every other country that would call for it".

Ukraine anger as Macron says 'Don't humiliate Russia'

The French leader wants to give Vladimir Putin an "exit ramp", but Ukraine rejects that stance.

www.bbc.com

THE PENNY MAGAZINE - Page 466 - Google Books Result​

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1845
But Philip and all France Alps . insisted , on the contrary , that a ... the past history of every great and warlike nation France and the Assembly of Paris

Empires of Islam in Renaissance Historical Thought​

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Margaret MESERVE, ‎Margaret Meserve · 2009 · ‎History
His aim throughout the passage is to establish the Franks and the Turks as the only two truly warlike nations in the Holy Land, equally matched in strength ..

 

[MTAtech]

Guys , whats wrong with modern French politicians ? and whats wrong with France in General ?


Russia was not humiliated over its invasion.
Mr Macron said it was crucial President Vladimir Putin had a way out of what he called a "fundamental error".
But Dmytro Kuleba said allies should "better focus on how to put Russia in its place" as it "humiliates itself".
Mr Macron has repeatedly spoken to Mr Putin by phone in an effort to broker a ceasefire and negotiations.
The French attempts to maintain a dialogue with the Kremlin leader contrast with the US and UK positions.
Foreign minister Kuleba said in a tweet that "calls to avoid humiliation of Russia can only humiliate France and every other country that would call for it".

Ukraine anger as Macron says 'Don't humiliate Russia'

The French leader wants to give Vladimir Putin an "exit ramp", but Ukraine rejects that stance.

www.bbc.com

THE PENNY MAGAZINE - Page 466 - Google Books Result​

https://books.google.se › books


1845
But Philip and all France Alps . insisted , on the contrary , that a ... the past history of every great and warlike nation France and the Assembly of Paris

Empires of Islam in Renaissance Historical Thought​

https://books.google.se › books


Margaret MESERVE, ‎Margaret Meserve · 2009 · ‎History
His aim throughout the passage is to establish the Franks and the Turks as the only two truly warlike nations in the Holy Land, equally matched in strength ..

Macron is right, to a point. JFK in the Cuban Missile Crisis sounded the same thing. That’s why he secretly offered Kruschev a secret deal to remove missiles from Turkey after the USSR withdrew the Cuban missiles. JFK didn’t want to humiliate Kruschev internally, which would influence him not to withdraw. This way, Kruschev could say he got a trade.

In this situation, Putin needs to be humiliated for egregious actions. Having NATO superior weapons sent to Ukraine can win a war of attrition.

 

[Gatsby]

At the outset of this war, I was on board with providing Putin with a face-saving offramp so that he could back away from the mess he created without too many consequences. But I'm increasingly uninterested in doing this. No one is humiliating Putin - he did that to himself. At this point Ukraine (and its Western allies) can push for a total victory in the Donbass and the Black Sea. If they still want to give Putin a face-saving concession, maybe Crimea is on the table, but that's up to Ukraine.

If Putin is humiliated and trapped in an unwinnable situation of his own making, that's no one's fault but his own. The Russian political system can figure out what should be done about him.

 

[ElChupacabra]

At the outset of this war, I was on board with providing Putin with a face-saving offramp so that he could back away from the mess he created without too many consequences. But I'm increasingly uninterested in doing this. No one is humiliating Putin - he did that to himself. At this point Ukraine (and its Western allies) can push for a total victory in the Donbass and the Black Sea. If they still want to give Putin a face-saving concession, maybe Crimea is on the table, but that's up to Ukraine.

If Putin is humiliated and trapped in an unwinnable situation of his own making, that's no one's fault but his own. The Russian political system can figure out what should be done about him.

Yeah, I've been in this camp for a while now. There have been plenty of ways out of this conflict, but Putin has doubled down on this to the point of there really being no way out that avoids humiliation.

 

[multivita-man]

The French leader wants to give Vladimir Putin an "exit ramp", but Ukraine rejects that stance.

This is what the next 3-6 months comes down to. Everyone assumes that time is on Ukraine's side, but I'm not completely convinced that's the case. There's a reason Macron wants a way out, and that reason is record - and rising - inflation. Sure, compared to what the Ukrainians are dealing with it's a "Let them eat cake", first world problem, but it's a political problem, not only for Macron's France but for much of Europe, and for much of the rest of the global alliance as well. Already, just 100 days into the war, there's not only fading interest in the war, but growing frustration at the inability of political leaders to deal with inflation and with energy price hikes with no end in sight. Throw in a looming food crisis, and it's a problem for Ukraine.

We could get to the point where the major powers backing Ukraine tell Ukraine that they've lost Crimea and parts of the Donbas, that they should be glad they didn't lose the rest of Ukraine, and they're just going to have to live with it. And that is because NATO should have refused to keep a hot war with Russia off the table - that was a mistake. It still is, and I'm not sure they can do anything about it now. I understand the strategy: hope Russia tires itself out and consumes itself, and that could still happen, but the question is, will Russia tire itself out before the countries that are paying a major economic and political price for their support begin to tire out as well? If they can bring Putin's government to its knees within the next few months? Probably so. But if we're approaching winter and in a virtual stalemate, no leader will want to face the worst months of winter without being able to tap into Russian energy.

 

[multivita-man]

At the outset of this war, I was on board with providing Putin with a face-saving offramp so that he could back away from the mess he created without too many consequences. But I'm increasingly uninterested in doing this. No one is humiliating Putin - he did that to himself. At this point Ukraine (and its Western allies) can push for a total victory in the Donbass and the Black Sea.

If we're willing to bring the full weight of NATO forces to annihilate Russia's war machine in Ukraine, yes.

If not, then the picture is much less clear. It's a test of wills.

 

[Litwin]

There's a reason Macron wants a way out, and that reason is record - and rising - inflation.

YOU must be joking, we have 40 larger economy all technologies , seas and space. Ceterum (autem) censeo Muscovy esse delendam

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/04/01/why-ukraine-must-win

No Ceasefire, No Freeze, Ukraine Must Win

Some European countries are once again toying with the idea that Ukraine should be forced to cease fire, even as its forces advance. This would be a disaster for the continent.

cepa.org

 

[Gatsby]

If we're willing to bring the full weight of NATO forces to annihilate Russia's war machine in Ukraine, yes.

If not, then the picture is much less clear. It's a test of wills.

Not necessarily NATO troops. But what the US is currently doing (i.e. supplying Ukraine with lots of weapons) seems to be working. I think we should just continue doing that.

 

[Litwin]

Not necessarily NATO troops. But what the US is currently doing (i.e. supplying Ukraine with lots of weapons) seems to be working. I think we should just continue doing that.

you are 100% right !

No Ceasefire, No Freeze, Ukraine Must Win

Some European countries are once again toying with the idea that Ukraine should be forced to cease fire, even as its forces advance. This would be a disaster for the continent.

cepa.org

 

[Litwin]

Macron is right, to a point. JFK in the Cuban Missile Crisis sounded the same thing. That’s why he secretly offered Kruschev

man, we fight the Nigeria with snow , not Marxist USSR (which was the real super power , Muscovy is not even close to ussr or USA/NATO )

No Ceasefire, No Freeze, Ukraine Must Win

Some European countries are once again toying with the idea that Ukraine should be forced to cease fire, even as its forces advance. This would be a disaster for the continent.

cepa.org

 

[multivita-man]

YOU must be joking, we have 40 larger economy all technologies , seas and space. Ceterum (autem) censeo Muscovy esse delendam

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/04/01/why-ukraine-must-win

I don't disagree that Russia's facing a bleak economic future, but I worry that we sometimes overestimate Western power. Russia is selling its oil and resources on the cheap to other countries, which is keeping the value of the ruble relatively stable.

 

[Litwin]

I don't disagree that Russia's facing a bleak economic future, but I worry that we sometimes overestimate Western power.

MAN, Moscow reported 2 days ago that they CAN´T START TO MAKE 70 YEAR OLD MOSKVICH CARS AGAIN, instead China is gonna produce some cheap crap there. I KNOW MUSCOVY, TAKE MY WORD THEY ARE FAKES AND full of crap LOSERS
more info:

"russia" Nationalizes Renault Plant, Revives Soviet-Era Moskvitch Car

debatepolitics.com

ps

Russian truck maker Kamaz is already in talks with Chinese carmaker JAC about using its design, engineering and production platform, according to Reuters.

A link with FAW, another Chinese carmaker, has also been touted.

 

[Cardinal]

At the outset of this war, I was on board with providing Putin with a face-saving offramp so that he could back away from the mess he created without too many consequences. But I'm increasingly uninterested in doing this. No one is humiliating Putin - he did that to himself. At this point Ukraine (and its Western allies) can push for a total victory in the Donbass and the Black Sea. If they still want to give Putin a face-saving concession, maybe Crimea is on the table, but that's up to Ukraine.

If Putin is humiliated and trapped in an unwinnable situation of his own making, that's no one's fault but his own. The Russian political system can figure out what should be done about him.

It’s a particularly ridiculous concern because state propaganda can invent their own reality and narrative to save face.

 

[Tigerace117]

Guys , whats wrong with modern French politicians ? and whats wrong with France in General ?


Russia was not humiliated over its invasion.
Mr Macron said it was crucial President Vladimir Putin had a way out of what he called a "fundamental error".
But Dmytro Kuleba said allies should "better focus on how to put Russia in its place" as it "humiliates itself".
Mr Macron has repeatedly spoken to Mr Putin by phone in an effort to broker a ceasefire and negotiations.
The French attempts to maintain a dialogue with the Kremlin leader contrast with the US and UK positions.
Foreign minister Kuleba said in a tweet that "calls to avoid humiliation of Russia can only humiliate France and every other country that would call for it".

Ukraine anger as Macron says 'Don't humiliate Russia'

The French leader wants to give Vladimir Putin an "exit ramp", but Ukraine rejects that stance.

www.bbc.com

THE PENNY MAGAZINE - Page 466 - Google Books Result​

https://books.google.se › books


1845
But Philip and all France Alps . insisted , on the contrary , that a ... the past history of every great and warlike nation France and the Assembly of Paris

Empires of Islam in Renaissance Historical Thought​

https://books.google.se › books


Margaret MESERVE, ‎Margaret Meserve · 2009 · ‎History
His aim throughout the passage is to establish the Franks and the Turks as the only two truly warlike nations in the Holy Land, equally matched in strength ..

Considering the Ukrainians are the ones begging the West for everything they should probably remember that alienating those they are depending on probably isn’t the smartest thing in the world.

Especially since if Putin doesn’t see an off ramp, he’s substantially more likely to simply call on Russia’s vast “special weapons” stockpile…… and there’s literally nothing the west could do to stop him from launching.

 

[Tigerace117]

If we're willing to bring the full weight of NATO forces to annihilate Russia's war machine in Ukraine, yes.

If not, then the picture is much less clear. It's a test of wills.

Which would spark global thermonuclear war, especially since nobody in Russia would believe America wouldn’t promptly try to invade.

 

[Litwin]

Putin

look, did I ask RT about its opinion on this subject ? relax, you lost this war comrade, enjoy the ride

 

[Tigerace117]

look, did I ask RT about its opinion on this subject ? relax, you lost this war comrade, enjoy the ride


View attachment 67394780

Oh look, a silly map which literally has no possible way of happening.

Lithuania isn’t on it because it was obliterated in the global thermonuclear war which preceded said map coming to be

 

[TheParser]

Guys , whats wrong with modern French politicians ? and whats wrong with France in General ?


Russia was not humiliated over its invasion.
Mr Macron said it was crucial President Vladimir Putin had a way out of what he called a "fundamental error".
But Dmytro Kuleba said allies should "better focus on how to put Russia in its place" as it "humiliates itself".
Mr Macron has repeatedly spoken to Mr Putin by phone in an effort to broker a ceasefire and negotiations.
The French attempts to maintain a dialogue with the Kremlin leader contrast with the US and UK positions.
Foreign minister Kuleba said in a tweet that "calls to avoid humiliation of Russia can only humiliate France and every other country that would call for it".

Ukraine anger as Macron says 'Don't humiliate Russia'

The French leader wants to give Vladimir Putin an "exit ramp", but Ukraine rejects that stance.

www.bbc.com

THE PENNY MAGAZINE - Page 466 - Google Books Result​

https://books.google.se › books


1845
But Philip and all France Alps . insisted , on the contrary , that a ... the past history of every great and warlike nation France and the Assembly of Paris

Empires of Islam in Renaissance Historical Thought​

https://books.google.se › books


Margaret MESERVE, ‎Margaret Meserve · 2009 · ‎History
His aim throughout the passage is to establish the Franks and the Turks as the only two truly warlike nations in the Holy Land, equally matched in strength ..

I am no Nostradamus, but I predict that when this war eventually ends, Mr. Macron will be the first Western leader to fly to Moscow in order to shake hands with P*t*n and to have dinner with him and to invite him to visit Paris -- despite the fact that P*t*n is personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of perfectly innocent Ukrainians, not to mention the actual rape of women, men, and children, and not to mention the sacrifice of thousands of Russian boys' lives.

 

[Tigerace117]

I am no Nostradamus, but I predict that when this war eventually ends, Mr. Macron will be the first Western leader to fly to Moscow in order to shake hands with P*t*n and to have dinner with him and to invite him to visit Paris -- despite the fact that P*t*n is personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of perfectly innocent Ukrainians, not to mention the actual rape of women, men, and children, and not to mention the sacrifice of thousands of Russian boys' lives.

…..never read up on France’s foreign policy in Africa have you.

I’ll give you a hint…..they couldn’t care less about the murder or rape of thousands of people.

 

[multivita-man]

I think Putin can be convinced to accept a face-saving way out if it is to keep Crimea and parts of the Donbas that are mostly Russian-speaking (bear in mind many of the formerly Ukrainian speakers in the territories under quasi-Russian control since 2014 have long ago left). But that's a non-start for Ukraine, for reasons I completely appreciate.

The problem for Ukraine and for her supporters is, we did wait 8-14 years before we decided Putin's wasn't okay. Politically, occupied Ukraine has arguably become Russified. If it's already difficult for a Russian leader to go back home without having conquered all of the enemy state, it would be unfathomable for Russia to go back having lost what they already had.

 

[multivita-man]

Which would spark global thermonuclear war, especially since nobody in Russia would believe America wouldn’t promptly try to invade.

It could spark a thermonuclear war, sure. Just like sending missiles to Ukraine that it then uses to strike targets in Russia. We're already in a de facto state of war with Russia. They're going to be humiliated one way or the other if they lose. What's important is that they lose. I'd rather they lose quickly and decisively. Letting a war of attrition play out has its own hazards, just like a direct confrontation.

 

[Litwin]

Not necessarily NATO troops. But what the US is currently doing (i.e. supplying Ukraine with lots of weapons) seems to be working. I think we should just continue doing that.

I am no Nostradamus, but I predict that when this war eventually ends, Mr. Macron will be the first Western leader to fly to Moscow in order to shake hands with P*t*n and to have dinner with him and to invite him to visit Paris -- despite the fact that P*t*n is personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of perfectly innocent Ukrainians, not to mention the actual rape of women, men, and children, and not to mention the sacrifice of thousands of Russian boys' lives.

…..never read up on France’s foreign policy..(RT.RU)

THIS IS WHAT A LEADING FREE WORLD´S THINKER WROTE :




AND

A ceasefire is very nice, but not if it means the Muscovites use it to regroup and try again.

 

[Tigerace117]

It could spark a thermonuclear war, sure. Just like sending missiles to Ukraine that it then uses to strike targets in Russia. We're already in a de facto state of war with Russia. They're going to be humiliated one way or the other if they lose. What's important is that they lose. I'd rather they lose quickly and decisively. Letting a war of attrition play out has its own hazards, just like a direct confrontation.

Assuming that we can beat them “quickly and decisively” is assuming a lot, especially since the US hasn’t actually had to fight a peer opponent for the last, oh, sixty years or so. Real life isn’t a Tom Clancy novel.

War on the Rocks wrote a interesting article about the West’s assumptions on the conflict.

Would We Do Better? Hubris and Validation in Ukraine - War on the Rocks

The hapless Russians are flailing in Ukraine. Their poorly prepared, unprofessional soldiers are incapable of modern combined arms warfare. Even if

warontherocks.com

 

[Tigerace117]

THIS IS WHAT A LEADING FREE WORLD´S THINKER WROTE :




AND

A ceasefire is very nice, but not if it means the Muscovites use it to regroup and try again.

Which is like arguing US defeat in Vietnam would end our own wars of aggression. Iraq shows otherwise…….very clearly.

The fact of the matter is that even if Putin died tomorrow, there’s absolutely no guarantee his replacement would be pro Western.

 

[Higgins86]

This is what the next 3-6 months comes down to. Everyone assumes that time is on Ukraine's side, but I'm not completely convinced that's the case. There's a reason Macron wants a way out, and that reason is record - and rising - inflation. Sure, compared to what the Ukrainians are dealing with it's a "Let them eat cake", first world problem, but it's a political problem, not only for Macron's France but for much of Europe, and for much of the rest of the global alliance as well. Already, just 100 days into the war, there's not only fading interest in the war, but growing frustration at the inability of political leaders to deal with inflation and with energy price hikes with no end in sight. Throw in a looming food crisis, and it's a problem for Ukraine.

We could get to the point where the major powers backing Ukraine tell Ukraine that they've lost Crimea and parts of the Donbas, that they should be glad they didn't lose the rest of Ukraine, and they're just going to have to live with it. And that is because NATO should have refused to keep a hot war with Russia off the table - that was a mistake. It still is, and I'm not sure they can do anything about it now. I understand the strategy: hope Russia tires itself out and consumes itself, and that could still happen, but the question is, will Russia tire itself out before the countries that are paying a major economic and political price for their support begin to tire out as well? If they can bring Putin's government to its knees within the next few months? Probably so. But if we're approaching winter and in a virtual stalemate, no leader will want to face the worst months of winter without being able to tap into Russian energy.

Problem with all this though is that Putin won’t stop. Appeasement hasn’t worked with him for over a decade. If he’s allowed to just take chunks of Ukraine at will and we eventually back off where does it end?