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Ukraine and Russia Close to Agreeing On " Neutral " Status For Ukraine With Security Considerations For Ukraine

oneworld2

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A peace deal under which Ukraine abandons its Nato aspirations in return for Russian withdrawal and western security guarantees appeared to inch closer on Wednesday even as Vladimir Putin’s troops were accused of killing people queueing for bread in a northern Ukrainian city.

Russia’s foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, and the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, suggested talks were making progress despite continued bloodshed and fears from some EU leaders that the Kremlin was toying with Kyiv.


“The negotiations are not easy for obvious reasons,” Lavrov told RBC News. “But nevertheless, there is some hope of reaching a compromise. “Neutral status is now being seriously discussed seriously along, of course, with security guarantees. This is what is now being discussed at the talks. There are absolutely specific wordings and, in my view, the sides are close to agreeing on them.”


I hope there is a negotiated settlement as soon as possible and a de escalation of the violence along the lines mentioned above. It is a realistic solution to end the conflict and one that should have been thrashed out long before the resort to war.

it appears that Ukraine is considering neutral status in return for an end to the invasion, security safeguards and entry into the EU

The danger is that many people don't want the war to end and even want it to escalate.

Recall that the Libyan civil war was all but over when the hawks decided to misuse a UNSC resolution so as to induce a regime change there. Since then the country has descended into chaos and war that has claimed many more lives

Resist the hawks, they have no respect for life . This has been and continues to be an awful situation but let's not blow the whole world up because of it.
 

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I hope there is a negotiated settlement as soon as possible and a de escalation of the violence along the lines mentioned above. It is a realistic solution to end the conflict and one that should have been thrashed out long before the resort to war.

it appears that Ukraine is considering neutral status in return for an end to the invasion, security safeguards and entry into the EU

The danger is that many people don't want the war to end and even want it to escalate.

Recall that the Libyan civil war was all but over when the hawks decided to misuse a UNSC resolution so as to induce a regime change there. Since then the country has descended into chaos and war that has claimed many more lives

Resist the hawks, they have no respect for life . This has been and continues to be an awful situation but let's not blow the whole world up because of it.

Ukraine should settle for nothing less than Russia's full withdrawal to the ceasefire line, Russia's return of all troops to their original deployment before the buildups, no limitations on the size and weapons in Ukraine's army and air force, a special tax on Russian pipeline usage to repay for damages, and the arrest and trial of Russian war criminals.

"Security wording" is meaningless to Russian scum. Twice Russia has affirmed these assurances, and now they do this.

My hope is that Zelensky settles for nothing less, and that if he does not get it then we should all look forward to the arrival of the SS-14 anti aircraft systems and Switchblade drones, and other unspecified long range attack options promised by the US.

Putin and Russia have to learn a lesson, a loss of another 1500 vehicles and 4 generals seems most fitting.
 

oneworld2

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They already had an agreement with Russia. Russia broke it. My opinion is Russia is waiting for aid from elsewhere.

The same could be said for the Ukrainian side. I bet when Russia gave those assurances it didn't foresee its naval base at savastopol becoming a NATO base nor the possibility of NATO missile batteries all along its border with Ukraine.

That time has passed and we can only deal with the now.

So are you saying you want the war to continue? If so why so?

IMO you cannot wail about the people being killed and cheer for the war to continue thus ensuring more victims
 

oneworld2

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Ukraine should settle for nothing less than Russia's full withdrawal to the ceasefire line, Russia's return of all troops to their original deployment before the buildups, no limitations on the size and weapons in Ukraine's army and air force, a special tax on Russian pipeline usage to repay for damages, and the arrest and trial of Russian war criminals.

"Security wording" is meaningless to Russian scum. Twice Russia has affirmed these assurances, and now they do this.

My hope is that Zelensky settles for nothing less, and that if he does not get it then we should all look forward to the arrival of the SS-14 anti aircraft systems and Switchblade drones, and other unspecified long range attack options promised by the US.

Putin and Russia have to learn a lesson, a loss of another 1500 vehicles and 4 generals seems most fitting.

Ain't going to happen so you might as well stop the killing now.

As I said to the last poster, you cannot wail about the deaths of civilians whilst at the same time wanting the war to continue and create even more deaths.

Your imploring of more weapons will only create the chance for even more vicious tactics/weapons from Russia

Hawks don't care about life, the support wars instead which take lives.

You are a hawk and thus cannot be taken seriously imo about your alleged concern for the victims of war
 

maxparrish

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The same could be said for the Ukrainian side. I bet when Russia gave those assurances it didn't foresee its naval base at savastopol becoming a NATO base nor the possibility of NATO missile batteries all along its border with Ukraine.

That time has passed and we can only deal with the now.

So are you saying you want the war to continue? If so why so?

IMO you cannot wail about the people being killed and cheer for the war to continue thus ensuring more victims

I see when the Russian pig squeals, the Putin fellow traveler suddenly pleads "peace"... Putin's Russia thought itself an invincible bully and found the little guy packed a very mean counterpunch, now he wails "peace...peace...oh how I desire peace".

Indeed, I say the only peace Russia's leaders and enablers deserve is that found in a grave.
 

maxparrish

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Ain't going to happen so you might as well stop the killing now.

As I said to the last poster, you cannot wail about the deaths of civilians whilst at the same time wanting the war to continue and create even more deaths.

Your imploring of more weapons will only create the chance for even more vicious tactics/weapons from Russia

Hawks don't care about life, the support wars instead which take lives.

You are a hawk and thus cannot be taken seriously imo about your alleged concern for the victims of war

And we all know you are shill for the bully, an advocate for the devil. Your record stands here, you shall never be permitted to forget it.
 

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I hope there is a negotiated settlement as soon as possible and a de escalation of the violence along the lines mentioned above. It is a realistic solution to end the conflict and one that should have been thrashed out long before the resort to war.

it appears that Ukraine is considering neutral status in return for an end to the invasion, security safeguards and entry into the EU

The danger is that many people don't want the war to end and even want it to escalate.

Recall that the Libyan civil war was all but over when the hawks decided to misuse a UNSC resolution so as to induce a regime change there. Since then the country has descended into chaos and war that has claimed many more lives

Resist the hawks, they have no respect for life . This has been and continues to be an awful situation but let's not blow the whole world up because of it.
Can you really call it an agreement if you had to bomb the other guy to get it?
 

oneworld2

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And we all know you are shill for the bully, an advocate for the devil. Your record stands here, you shall never be permitted to forget it.

Nope, wrong again, I don't support wars in the vast majority of cases and don't support this one. That's why I want it to end..You cite all of the death and destruction but want it to continue, even wanting it to escalate.

The hawks don't care for lives imo they just make excuses for throwing more people on the fire as they pretend to weep over them.

Logic is not on your side and neither is morality imo
 

oneworld2

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Can you really call it an agreement if you had to bomb the other guy to get it?

Agreements are what usually follow conflicts. I always wish to see them ward off wars, like Minsk2 might have warded off this one.

We can go through the why and wherefores when the fighting stops, but getting the fighting to stop is what people who value lives tend to support imo
 

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The same could be said for the Ukrainian side. I bet when Russia gave those assurances it didn't foresee its naval base at savastopol becoming a NATO base nor the possibility of NATO missile batteries all along its border with Ukraine.

That time has passed and we can only deal with the now.

So are you saying you want the war to continue? If so why so?

IMO you cannot wail about the people being killed and cheer for the war to continue thus ensuring more victims
Unlike you I am for Ukraine to exist as a democracy.
 

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Ain't going to happen so you might as well stop the killing now.

As I said to the last poster, you cannot wail about the deaths of civilians whilst at the same time wanting the war to continue and create even more deaths.

Your imploring of more weapons will only create the chance for even more vicious tactics/weapons from Russia

Hawks don't care about life, the support wars instead which take lives.

You are a hawk and thus cannot be taken seriously imo about your alleged concern for the victims of war

Those who oppose Russia all want the war to end. Status quo ante is the best possible outcome at this point.
 

Juin

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Can you really call it an agreement if you had to bomb the other guy to get it?



Actually that is usually the only path to any agreement. Why is he gonna give you an agreement if you don't bomb it out of him? Wasn't that how Nato exacted an agreement from Serbia?
 

Juin

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No agreement obtained by violent force is valid for the victim. The victim may, with honor, ignore it at some future date.



Like Herr Hitler:)?
 

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Ukraine should settle for nothing less than Russia's full withdrawal to the ceasefire line, Russia's return of all troops to their original deployment before the buildups, no limitations on the size and weapons in Ukraine's army and air force, a special tax on Russian pipeline usage to repay for damages, and the arrest and trial of Russian war criminals.

"Security wording" is meaningless to Russian scum. Twice Russia has affirmed these assurances, and now they do this.

My hope is that Zelensky settles for nothing less, and that if he does not get it then we should all look forward to the arrival of the SS-14 anti aircraft systems and Switchblade drones, and other unspecified long range attack options promised by the US.

Putin and Russia have to learn a lesson, a loss of another 1500 vehicles and 4 generals seems most fitting.
And why would Putin accept such a deal and lose face? There needs to be a realistic deal that prevents the continued suffering and turning of Ukraine into a failed state, not one that has no chance of succeeding and will just make Russia double down.
 

maxparrish

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Like Herr Hitler:)?

If Germany was peaceful nation and the victim of aggression, you bet. But as it attacked Russia first in WWI, not so sure that applies.
 

maxparrish

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And why would Putin accept such a deal and lose face? There needs to be a realistic deal that prevents the continued suffering and turning of Ukraine into a failed state, not one that has no chance of succeeding and will just make Russia double down.

Putin will have his "victory". A written commitment to be a neutral country like Sweden or Austria. If he wants more, like the ability in a few years to start all over again, such an agreement is pointless. In such an event, you feed the alligator now or later...you still die as country and live under Putin crony's and corrupt oligarchs.

Putin has already lost face, and as sanctions bite and KIA rises he will lose more...endangering his rule. And when those drones arrive, and Russia has exhausted its combat power and in need of much rest, more hell will be unleashed.

If he is smart, he will take the deal as outlined. He get's neutrality, Ukraine gets its country back except for Crimea and a sliver of the Donbas.

Putin has created a wound with the Ukrainian people that is so deep that many years of insurgent warfare will follow EVEN if he prevails. He can't hide the fatality total forever. Russian mothers will continue to flood Ukraine's help lines for their "MIA" sons and even daughters...young people long dead and incinerated in Putin's portable crematoriums.

And old Ukrainian women will continue to approach and insist to these young Russian boys, some as young as 16, to "take these seeds and put them in your pocket, so that way sun flowers will grow on your grave when you die here".

And die they will.
 
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The same could be said for the Ukrainian side. I bet when Russia gave those assurances it didn't foresee its naval base at savastopol becoming a NATO base nor the possibility of NATO missile batteries all along its border with Ukraine.

That time has passed and we can only deal with the now.

So are you saying you want the war to continue? If so why so?

IMO you cannot wail about the people being killed and cheer for the war to continue thus ensuring more victims
Sevastopol? You mean that port that was Ukrainian until Russia "annexed" it in 2014?

With all due respect to Putin and those of you that support him, the Soviet Union dissolved 30 years ago. Russia leased facilities in Sevastopol and there was an agreement signed back in the late 90s but none of that was good enough for Putin who decided to just take the entire region in 2014. Why should Ukraine be asked to give Putin a damned thing? Are you under the impression that Putin abides by treaties? Do you really believe that any written agreement will be honored by Putin? Are you so naive as to believe that as the world pats themselves on the back for a job well done in a peaceful resolution of the conflict Putin won't be rearming for another shot at the hoop?

The ONLY acceptable agreement would be one where Putin ends up in jail and Russian petroleum assets are sold for the benefit of Ukraine until that nation is made whole again.
 

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oneworld2

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Sevastopol? You mean that port that was Ukrainian until Russia "annexed" it in 2014?

Correct
With all due respect to Putin and those of you that support him, the Soviet Union dissolved 30 years ago. Russia leased facilities in Sevastopol and there was an agreement signed back in the late 90s but none of that was good enough for Putin who decided to just take the entire region in 2014. Why should Ukraine be asked to give Putin a damned thing? Are you under the impression that Putin abides by treaties? Do you really believe that any written agreement will be honored by Putin? Are you so naive as to believe that as the world pats themselves on the back for a job well done in a peaceful resolution of the conflict Putin won't be rearming for another shot at the hoop?


I don't support Putin, I'm just not one to be told what facts I should consider and what facts I shouldn't consider.

Russia abides by treaties much in the same way others abide by them, or at least states with a clear amount of power

The US is in breach/out of its contract with Cuba regarding Gitmo

All states rearm and arm up during peacetime. It's not just Russia
The ONLY acceptable agreement would be one where Putin ends up in jail and Russian petroleum assets are sold for the benefit of Ukraine until that nation is made whole again.

I don't think that's realistic and thus is does nothing to end the killing in Ukraine and possibly elsewhere if hawks like yourself win the discussion
 

oneworld2

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And we all know you are shill for the bully, an advocate for the devil. Your record stands here, you shall never be permitted to forget it.


BTW I challenge you to find a single post of mine that actually supports the war. I'm not talking about the fact that I think NATOs wreckless and needless expansion has played a major role in creating the situation that caused this war. I am talking of actual bona fide support for his attack on Ukraine.

I invariable call it an illegal war so you are actually misrepresenting me, and most likely many others, so as to bestow a position opon them that they have never expressed support for.

What i will do though, from this day forth for as long as I am here, will be to remind you that you support wars and the escalations of wars whilst pretending to care about the victims of them
 

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I hope there is a negotiated settlement as soon as possible and a de escalation of the violence along the lines mentioned above. It is a realistic solution to end the conflict and one that should have been thrashed out long before the resort to war.

it appears that Ukraine is considering neutral status in return for an end to the invasion, security safeguards and entry into the EU

The danger is that many people don't want the war to end and even want it to escalate.

Recall that the Libyan civil war was all but over when the hawks decided to misuse a UNSC resolution so as to induce a regime change there. Since then the country has descended into chaos and war that has claimed many more lives

Resist the hawks, they have no respect for life . This has been and continues to be an awful situation but let's not blow the whole world up because of it.
Russian assurances aren't worth spit frankly, particularly where security guarantees are concerned as the past and present have proven. Though it's not my place to decide for the Ukrainians, as they're the ones (along with common Russians) paying the price for Putin's aggression, I would certainly advise against any outcome that doesn't ensure their right to be inducted into NATO should it so desire. Certainly Russia has proven over and over again the sheer necessity of NATO membership in safeguarding one's territorial integrity against its malign intentions; something its Nordic neighbours have rapidly come to realize during the course of this war. I am beyond glad to see Putin's inhumane and idiotic invasion more than backfire with respect to its ostensible geopolitical goals of combating supposed NATO encroachment (though I feel it has at least as much to do with wag the dog political tactics and the reclamation of Soviet era territory) with the likely expansion of the alliance to Russia's very borders, thus containing this rabid beast of a nation under that KGB butcher.
 
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oneworld2

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And why would Putin accept such a deal and lose face? There needs to be a realistic deal that prevents the continued suffering and turning of Ukraine into a failed state, not one that has no chance of succeeding and will just make Russia double down.

I don't even think it is solely about losing face.

Without a neutral status Ukraine the NATO threat to Russia remains the same as it did prior to the war
 
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