Ukraine and Russia Close to Agreeing On " Neutral " Status For Ukraine With Security Considerations For Ukraine

[oneworld2]

Unlike you I am for Ukraine to exist as a democracy.

I have absolutely no opposition to Ukraine becoming whatever the people want it to become. There may be consequences for the paths peoples take but I support their right to take them, so your comments are actually based on an ignorance of my views

 

[oneworld2]

Russian assurances aren't worth spit frankly, particularly where security guarantees are concerned as the past and present have proven. Though it's not my place to decide for the Ukrainians, as they're the ones (along with common Russians) paying the price for Putin's aggression, I would certainly advise against any outcome that doesn't ensure their right to be inducted into NATO should it so desire. Certainly Russia has proven over and over again the sheer necessity of NATO membership in safeguarding one's territorial integrity against its malign intentions; something its Nordic neighbours have rapidly come to realize during the course of this war. I am beyond glad to see Putin's inhumane and idiotic invasion more than backfire with respect to its ostensible geopolitical goals of combating supposed NATO encroachment (though I feel it has at least as much to do with wag the dog political tactics and the reclamation of Soviet era territory) with the likely expansion of the alliance to Russia's very borders, thus containing this rabid beast of a nation under that KGB butcher.

There is no " supposed NATO encroachment" there is actual NATO encroachment onto the borders of Russia. You can have your own opinions but not your own facts

 

[oneworld2]

Those who oppose Russia all want the war to end. Status quo ante is the best possible outcome at this point.

Absolutely not and you couldn't be more wrong. Many on the allegedly, pro Ukraine side are imploring them to hang on so as to get more weapons to keep the war going. The same folk often bemoan others for not assisting in the weaponizing of this war. More still actually want to see policies followed that could escalate the war itself and see deaths in other countries

The status quo would only lead to the ongoing civil war in Ukraine and do nothing to solve the core issues that created the situation that led to this war. So you are, imo, way off on this too.

 

[Surrealistik]

There is no " supposed NATO encroachment" there is actual NATO encroachment onto the borders of Russia. You can have your own opinions but not your own facts

There has been no material NATO encroachment with respect to Ukraine that would even begin to justify the depraved butchery Putin has set upon.

Regardless, even if Russia wins this war or otherwise manages to coerce a peace agreement through its ongoing litany of war crimes and civilian massacres, which frankly is unknown, it will have failed spectacularly in achieving its core geopolitical goal as Putin, in his supreme idiocy with this move, has all but guaranteed full blown NATO encroachment on his borders and rightly so, nevermind the economic devastation that will last for generations.

 

[Fledermaus]

Absolutely not and you couldn't be more wrong. Many on the allegedly, pro Ukraine side are imploring them to hang on so as to get more weapons to keep the war going. The same folk often bemoan others for not assisting in the weaponizing of this war. More still actually want to see policies followed that could escalate the war itself and see deaths in other countries

The status quo would only lead to the ongoing civil war in Ukraine and do nothing to solve the core issues that created the situation that led to this war. So you are, imo, way off on this too.

The war ending is still the ultimate goal.

 

[oneworld2]

There has been no material NATO encroachment with respect to Ukraine that would even begin to justify the depraved butchery Putin has set upon.

You are shifting the goalposts here

You said there was only " supposed NATO encroachment" when there is obviously NATO encroachment. You then switch to the context of specifically NATO in Ukraine

You are wrong too about Ukraine's involvement with NATO countries. The NATO countries have been ramping up arms sales since last year and have held joint exercises with Ukrainian forces in Ukraine itself

YAVORIV, Ukraine, Sept 20 (Reuters) - Ukraine began joint military exercises with U.S. and other NATO troops on Monday, at a time when neighbouring Russia and Belarus have been holding large-scale drills that alarmed the West.

Ukraine, at war with Russia-backed separatists since 2014, has long sought closer integration with Western militaries in the hope of one day joining NATO.

A Ukrainian defence ministry spokesman said 4,000 Ukrainian troops and 2,000 foreigners would participate in the "RAPID TRIDENT - 2021" drill, due to run until Oct. 1.

Ukraine holds military drills with U.S. forces, NATO allies

Ukraine began joint military exercises with U.S. and other NATO troops on Monday, at a time when neighbouring Russia and Belarus have been holding large-scale drills that alarmed the West.

www.reuters.com

The military base the Russians attacked a few days ago has been a venue for US forces training of Ukrainian forces

The base has previously been used for military training of Ukrainian troops, often with instructors from the US and other Nato countries. It was not immediately clear whether foreign instructors were at the centre when it was hit.

Ukraine war: 'Sky turned red' as missiles hit Lviv military base

"It doesn't matter where you live" - fear after a deadly attack on military base close to Polish border.

www.bbc.co.uk

Regardless, even if Russia wins this war or otherwise manages to coerce a peace agreement through its ongoing litany of war crimes and civilian massacres, which frankly is unknown, it will have failed spectacularly in achieving its core geopolitical goal as Putin, in his supreme idiocy with this move, has all but guaranteed full blown NATO encroachment on his borders and rightly so, nevermind the economic devastation that will last for generations.

Russia can't " win " the war but the war will no doubt have impacted on the negotiability of the core issues surrounding the security concerns for both parties and others. MINSK 2 was what should have averted war but the hawks won out and all of these people have died and continue to die because of it

 

[oneworld2]

The war ending is still the ultimate goal.

Wishes to see policies and actions that will be sure to escalate the war are not conducive to the view that they are wishing that the war ends.

People here, the hawks , have been the ones pushing this at the same time the cite and allegedly weep over the deaths and horrors being visited on those they profess to care about. It's sheer Orwell

 

[Surrealistik]

You are shifting the goalposts here

You said there was only " supposed NATO encroachment" when there is obviously NATO encroachment. You then switch to the context of specifically NATO in Ukraine

You are wrong too about Ukraine's involvement with NATO countries. The NATO countries have been ramping up arms sales since last year and have held joint exercises with Ukrainian forces in Ukraine itself

Ukraine holds military drills with U.S. forces, NATO allies

Ukraine began joint military exercises with U.S. and other NATO troops on Monday, at a time when neighbouring Russia and Belarus have been holding large-scale drills that alarmed the West.

www.reuters.com

The military base the Russians attacked a few days ago has been a venue for US forces training of Ukrainian forces

Ukraine war: 'Sky turned red' as missiles hit Lviv military base

"It doesn't matter where you live" - fear after a deadly attack on military base close to Polish border.

www.bbc.co.uk

No goal post shifting; the word supposed just bothers you. I'm not going to wade into the weeds of whether or not there was NATO encroachment beyond the fact that there was nothing that could be said to justify this war that has been utterly counterproductive on the matter of stopping said encroachment; something that should have been painfully obvious even to a notoriously posturing Putin.

Russia can't " win " the war but the war will no doubt have impacted on the negotiability of the core issues surrounding the security concerns for both parties and others. MINSK 2 was what should have averted war but the hawks won out and all of these people have died and continue to die because of it

Yes, it will have impacted on the negotiability of those core issues in that it will have made NATO enrollment a certainty for just about everyone bordering or close to bordering Russia save perhaps Ukraine, and only if they choose, under great duress, what I imagine will be a fleeting peace soon to be reneged upon by a territory hungry Russia eager to distract its deprived populace and reestablish its Soviet demesne.

 

[Fledermaus]

Wishes to see policies and actions that will be sure to escalate the war are not conducive to the view that they are wishing that the war ends.

People here, the hawks , have been the ones pushing this at the same time the cite and allegedly weep over the deaths and horrors being visited on those they profess to care about. It's sheer Orwell

Escalate the war?



Full on invasion wasn't escalation enough?

 

[oneworld2]

No goal post shifting; the word supposed just bothers you. I'm not going to wade into the weeds of whether or not there was NATO encroachment beyond the fact that there was nothing that could be said to justify this war that has been utterly counterproductive on the matter of stopping said encroachment; something that should have been painfully obvious even to a notoriously posturing Putin.


Yes, it will have impacted on the negotiability of those core issues in that it will have made NATO enrollment a certainty for just about everyone bordering or close to bordering Russia save perhaps Ukraine, and only if they choose, under great duress, what I imagine will be a fleeting peace soon to be reneged upon by a territory hungry Russia eager to distract its deprived populace and reestablish its Soviet demesne.

The word " supposed" only bothered me and drew a comment because it is obviously not supported by the facts. NATO HAS encroached right up to the Russian borders. That's a verifiable and uncontroversial fact

I also showed you how NATO was treating Ukraine as a kind of defacto member with arms shipments, joint exercises and military base training of Ukrainian forces.

These are the facts that you don't want to include.

I'm not saying that all of this justifies the killing of innocent people, I am saying, like so many informed minds have said previously that NATO expansion eastwards was a huge mistake and sure to create the very situation we see today

 

[oneworld2]

Escalate the war?



Full on invasion wasn't escalation enough?

Escalate the war to create a situation whereby other countries could become involved. Obvious really but only to those taking the discussion seriously.

 

[Fledermaus]

Escalate the war to create a situation whereby other countries could become involved. Obvious really but only to those taking the discussion seriously.

Heaven forbid anyone get in the way of Putin's illegal invasion.

 

[Fledermaus]

Heaven forbid anyone get in the way of Putin's illegal invasion.

The word " supposed" only bothered me and drew a comment because it is obviously not supported by the facts. NATO HAS encroached right up to the Russian borders. That's a verifiable and uncontroversial fact

I also showed you how NATO was treating Ukraine as a kind of defacto member with arms shipments, joint exercises and military base training of Ukrainian forces.

These are the facts that you don't want to include.

I'm not saying that all of this justifies the killing of innocent people, I am saying, like so many informed minds have said previously that NATO expansion eastwards was a huge mistake and sure to create the very situation we see today

Wow. NATO has "encroached" on a whole few percent of Russia's border.

Blaming the victim again, eh?

 

[LessBiased?]

NATO can go where it wants, including to the Russian border. It just can’t cross the border.

 

[maxparrish]

BTW I challenge you to find a single post of mine that actually supports the war. I'm not talking about the fact that I think NATOs wreckless and needless expansion has played a major role in creating the situation that caused this war. I am talking of actual bona fide support for his attack on Ukraine.

I invariable call it an illegal war so you are actually misrepresenting me, and most likely many others, so as to bestow a position opon them that they have never expressed support for.

What i will do though, from this day forth for as long as I am here, will be to remind you that you support wars and the escalations of wars whilst pretending to care about the victims of them

You've spent 90 percent of your time blaming everyone but Putin and Russia for the invasion. In post after post, you've regaled us with the trope of its Americas and/or Natos fault for war. The constant litany of justification on behalf of the bully and aggressor isn't debatable.

It's so obvious that you can't even write two sentences without betraying your shilling. Your claim that you don't support the war is irrelevant, it says NOTHING about who just who's side you you blame for a war, repeating Herr Putin's justifications. And the moment you write your second sentence its your same old wailing about "reckless and needless" Nato expansion...creating the situation.

Gee you think Putin launching an all out invasion of much smaller country might have something to do with "creating the situation"?

Sorry fella...if you intended to hide that your speaking for Putin and Russia, you going have to do better than that.

 

[oneworld2]

You've spent 90 percent of your time blaming everyone but Putin and Russia for the invasion. In post after post, you've regaled us with the trope of its Americas and/or Natos fault for war. The constant litany of justification on behalf of the bully and aggressor isn't debatable.

It's so obvious that you can't even write two sentences without betraying your shilling. Your claim that you don't support the war is irrelevant, it says NOTHING about who just who's side you you blame for a war, repeating Herr Putin's justifications. And the moment you write your second sentence its your same old wailing about "reckless and needless" Nato expansion...creating the situation.

Gee you think Putin launching an all out invasion of much smaller country might have something to do with "creating the situation"?

Sorry fella...if you intended to hide that your speaking for Putin and Russia, you going have to do better than that.

A lot of words but nothing cited to back your claim


So you failed to provide actual evidence of me posting that I support this war, who knew?

 

[Fledermaus]

A lot of words but nothing cited to back your claim

So you failed to provide actual evidence of me posting that I support this war, who knew?

Next on RT the provocation of defensive weapons in NATO.

 

[oneworld2]

Wow. NATO has "encroached" on a whole few percent of Russia's border.

Blaming the victim again, eh?

Inclusion of Georgia and Ukraine would add around another 2000 miles of NATo bordering of Russia. It would basically ensure a NATO border with eastern Russia. Couple that with nuclear subs and a maritime border with Turkey, another NATO member and the case for NATOs encircling of Russia is an even stronger one

Nobody here would accept Russian missile bases in Mexico and no talk of their sovereign right to make their own decisions would come from the usual suspects here because they are not balanced nor consistent in any of their views imo

 

[Fledermaus]

Inclusion of Georgia and Ukraine would add around another 2000 miles of NATo bordering of Russia. It would basically ensure a NATO border with eastern Russia. Couple that with nuclear subs and a maritime border with Turkey, another NATO member and the case for NATOs encircling of Russia is an even stronger one

Nobody here would accept Russian missile bases in Mexico and no talk of their sovereign right to make their own decisions would come from the usual suspects here because they are not balanced nor consistent in any of their views imo

In other words. Only a few percent on the border.

A border of a nation known for attacking her neighbors.

And how would Georgia and Ukraine result in a eastern Russia border?

 

[joluoto]

I don't even think it is solely about losing face.

Without a neutral status Ukraine the NATO threat to Russia remains the same as it did prior to the war

Neutral status for Ukraine is exactly the same situation as before the war.

 

[Fledermaus]

Inclusion of Georgia and Ukraine would add around another 2000 miles of NATo bordering of Russia. It would basically ensure a NATO border with eastern Russia. Couple that with nuclear subs and a maritime border with Turkey, another NATO member and the case for NATOs encircling of Russia is an even stronger one

Nobody here would accept Russian missile bases in Mexico and no talk of their sovereign right to make their own decisions would come from the usual suspects here because they are not balanced nor consistent in any of their views imo

Poor Russia is surrounded!

Especially the EASTERN portion (that is the right side of the map).

NATO must be expanding into Kazakhstan, Mongolia and China for that to happen.

 

[oneworld2]

In other words. Only a few percent on the border.

A border of a nation known for attacking her neighbors.

And how would Georgia and Ukraine result in a eastern Russia border?

Yep, my mistake and eastern border in the case of ukraine and a southern border in the case of Georgia

BTW NATO is known for attacking people all over the world and doesn't even pretend to stay in the " neighbourhood" Their neighbourhood appears to be the entire world

 

[oneworld2]

Neutral status for Ukraine is exactly the same situation as before the war.

Not really, it was becoming a defacto member of NATO, exercises arms shipments NATO people on the ground training Ukrainian forces . You only have to look at the name given to the military base the Russians just blew up to know how far the links had gone

 

[Fledermaus]

Yep, my mistake and eastern border in the case of ukraine and a southern border in the case of Georgia

BTW NATO is known for attacking people all over the world and doesn't even pretend to stay in the " neighbourhood" Their neighbourhood appears to be the entire world

You bitched because the were going to border Russia.



Now bordering isn't the issue?

 

[Fledermaus]

Not really, it was becoming a defacto member of NATO, exercises arms shipments NATO people on the ground training Ukrainian forces . You only have to look at the name given to the military base the Russians just blew up to know how far the links had gone

To defend from the RUSSIANS invading.

Imagine that.