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UK like a "third world country" marked by "a new and aggressive atheism"

MetalGear

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A senior Papal adviser has pulled out of the Pope's UK visit after saying arriving at Heathrow airport was like landing in a "Third World" country.

Cardinal Walter Kasper reportedly told a German magazine the UK was marked by "a new and aggressive atheism".
The Vatican said the cardinal had not intended "any kind of slight" and had pulled out because of illness.

BBC News - Pope aide pulls out of trip after Third World jibe

Good thing he canceled his trip. This old fart is not welcome here. The Pope should also feel free to take his corrupt Catholic regime back to Rome and leave the Anglicans be.
 
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I don't believe in Hell, but I hope the Pope rots in it anyway.
 

MetalGear

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I don't believe in Hell, but I hope the Pope rots in it anyway.
I think the entire catholic belief is a fraud and the Pope seals my hatred towards it. Self imposed powers like having the ability to "forgive" sinners on the behalf of God is just pathetic. The Pope is nothing but an egotistical maniac who lives like a King and distributes the money of the gullable believer to butter up politicians and churches to keep hush hush about this culture of kiddy touching that is sprawing all over the place. Well the truth is out now and i hope they endure one of the biggest embarrasments in there history. Teach them a good listen or two.
 

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Lol third world country? **** the pope.

Yea yea, britain is very atheistic but I don't really give a ****. Believe it or not, not every person in Britain is named Christopher Hitchens.
 

MetalGear

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Lol third world country? **** the pope.

Yea yea, britain is very atheistic but I don't really give a ****. Believe it or not, not every person in Britain is named Christopher Hitchens.
At least in athiestic democracies your beliefs and political views are protected under the law regardless of your background. Something religious regimes have been unable to implement.
 
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Demon of Light

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At least in athiestic democracies your beliefs and political views are protected under the law regardless of your background.
Uh, no, that just isn't true. France comes to mind, though many of the European atheistic democracies do not afford protections to beliefs and political views. Certainly not to the extent they are protected in the U.S.
 

Hatuey

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Uh, no, that just isn't true. France comes to mind, though many of the European atheistic democracies do not afford protections to beliefs and political views. Certainly not to the extent they are protected in the U.S.
What beliefs does France not afford protections to? Before you answer realize this:

If I say I want to walk naked on New York City X street because it is my religious belief that God wants me to do this, that is not protected by the U.S. law.

However if I claim it is God's wish that I do not give my children medicines, that is my right under U.S. law.

Neither example has proof that God wants me to do any of that but somehow the second belief will get protected and the first wont won't even though the first will not be hurting nobody and the first are almost guaranteed to hurt my children.

So do go on. What makes French law anymore protective than U.S. law?
 
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Civil1z@tion

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What beliefs does France not afford protections to? Before you answer realize this:

If I say I want to walk naked on New York City X street because it is my religious belief that God wants me to do this, that is not protected by the U.S. law.

However if I claim it is God's wish that I do not give my children medicines, that is my right under U.S. law.

Neither example has proof that God wants me to do any of that but somehow the second belief will get protected and the first wont won't even though the first will not be hurting nobody and the first are almost guaranteed to hurt my children.

So do go on. What makes French law anymore protective than U.S. law?
He's probably referring to the bans on muslim veils in general and any religious iconography (for students that is) in schools. Also, the situations you cite are, to my knowledge, exactly the same in France. You can't walk the streets naked and you can avoid vaccinating your child for religious reasons. So really your post didn't show anything.

As for the Papal advisor's comments, screw him. England kicked out the Catholic hierarchy four and a half centuries ago. Who cares what that jerk has to say about a perfectly nice country (with a pleasantly high number of atheists)?
 

MetalGear

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Uh, no, that just isn't true. France comes to mind, though many of the European atheistic democracies do not afford protections to beliefs and political views. Certainly not to the extent they are protected in the U.S.
Are you under the impression France/much of Europe does not protect freedom of speech?
 

MetalGear

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He's probably referring to the bans on muslim veils in general and any religious iconography (for students that is) in schools. Also, the situations you cite are, to my knowledge, exactly the same in France. You can't walk the streets naked and you can avoid vaccinating your child for religious reasons. So really your post didn't show anything.
The ECHR has ruled this illegal in Italy (crosses in schools), and due to the legal structure of the ECHR the ruling must be applied in all member nations. Hence this no longer applies to France.
 

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He's probably referring to the bans on muslim veils in general and any religious iconography (for students that is) in schools. Also, the situations you cite are, to my knowledge, exactly the same in France. You can't walk the streets naked and you can avoid vaccinating your child for religious reasons. So really your post didn't show anything.

As for the Papal advisor's comments, screw him. England kicked out the Catholic hierarchy four and a half centuries ago. Who cares what that jerk has to say about a perfectly nice country (with a pleasantly high number of atheists)?
There are parts of France where walking around naked is practically compulsory! The Burka ban is a difficult one, and one that has been debated to death here, but I believe it has very little to do with religion. The Burka is a cultural symbol, not a religious one and arguements in favour of banning it have a strong basis in security concerns.

The Vatican has a bit of a record of creating controversy on the eve of Papal visits. Remember when he visited Africa and condemned the use of condoms? The cynical part of me believes that there may be a diversion game going on. There may be something they really don't want to be the focus of media attention during the visit (abuse by priests perhaps?) and so, in order to ensure this doesn't become a dominant theme, they use a silly canard such as 'Britain is a third world country' to draw the fire. Of course it might also be an example of 'any publicity is good publicity', as popular interest in the visit seems to be pretty low. In 1982, when JP2 visited, the gathering in Glasgow attracted 350,000, on the BBC news last night the Scottish Archbishop said they would be happy if 65,000 turned up this time.
 

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Are you under the impression France/much of Europe does not protect freedom of speech?
You must learn that most on the other side of the pond believe we live in a dictatorship where free speech is controlled by government and we have no freedom of movement and are not allowed to believe in what ever religion we want.

That in reality we are in many ways more free than in the US at this time, is just ironic.
 

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But back to subject.. the guy is right ... some parts of the UK are a 3rd world country.. as a whole, not so much. Just go to Gibraltar and you will see what I mean.

But then again, you can say this of pretty much any country.

The guy is a toad btw, as is his whole organisation.
 

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You must learn that most on the other side of the pond believe we live in a dictatorship where free speech is controlled by government and we have no freedom of movement and are not allowed to believe in what ever religion we want.

That in reality we are in many ways more free than in the US at this time, is just ironic.
Yes i have been under this impression lately.

But back to subject.. the guy is right ... some parts of the UK are a 3rd world country.. as a whole, not so much. Just go to Gibraltar and you will see what I mean.

But then again, you can say this of pretty much any country.
That's not even in England.

The guy is a toad btw, as is his whole organisation.
Good thing im leaving for Madrid before he comes (and then Denmark), because all the religious freaks begin crawling out from under there rocks and swarm the place with there radicalism. Prefer avoiding it personally.
 
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Demon of Light

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You must learn that most on the other side of the pond believe we live in a dictatorship where free speech is controlled by government and we have no freedom of movement and are not allowed to believe in what ever religion we want.

That in reality we are in many ways more free than in the US at this time, is just ironic.
You are freer to engage in hedonistic activities, but that is not the same as political freedom. In fact encouraging and allowing hedonism is a great way to get people apathetic about political freedom. People simply do not have the liberties people in the U.S. have.
 

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You are freer to engage in hedonistic activities, but that is not the same as political freedom. In fact encouraging and allowing hedonism is a great way to get people apathetic about political freedom. People simply do not have the liberties people in the U.S. have.
Such as? Because i can only name the second ammendment thus far. Even then, it is possible to get your hands on guns in Europe, just not as easily. How do you think our Eaton posh nobs fox hunt?
 
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You are freer to engage in hedonistic activities,
Yes we are.. we have more personal freedom... our women can go topless if they so desire too.. no moral police to stop them unlike in the US. Here a breast showing on TV is a "so what", where as over in the US it is a national outcry.. you American's do know that most of you sucked on your moms tits once right?

but that is not the same as political freedom.
No I agree our political freedom is not as inferior as the US.. here in Europe our political freedom is far far far superior than that of the US. For one, it is damn easy to set up a political party, and actually get elected to the national assembly. We have multi-party systems, not duo-party systems run by corporations. We have for the most part very clean and fair elections and guess what.. we can actually count here.

In fact encouraging and allowing hedonism is a great way to get people apathetic about political freedom.
So you are saying that because we have more personal freedoms that means we dont care about political freedoms that as I stated are superior to yours? Well lets test this theory of yours... who has the higher turn-out of voters... Europeans or the US when it comes to national elections? When was the last time 70+% of possible US voters turned out for a national election?

People simply do not have the liberties people in the U.S. have.
No we have far more, with one exception.. guns. But then again we dont give a rats ass about guns.
 

Demon of Light

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Such as? Because i can only name the second ammendment thus far. Even then, it is possible to get your hands on guns in Europe, just not as easily. How do you think our Eaton posh nobs fox hunt?
Of course, the second amendment seems to be the typical response of a euro. Those barbaric Yanks and their guns. Civilized euros know the people have no right to any means of self-defense, especially from their government that does not think people have a right to speak their mind on any issue.

Yes we are.. we have more personal freedom... our women can go topless if they so desire too.. no moral police to stop them unlike in the US. Here a breast showing on TV is a "so what", where as over in the US it is a national outcry.. you American's do know that most of you sucked on your moms tits once right?
Like I said, more hedonistic liberties is not a boon to democracy and is often allowed by anti-democratic governments to keep the masses docile. Have you read 1984 or Brave New World?

No I agree our political freedom is not as inferior as the US.. here in Europe our political freedom is far far far superior than that of the US. For one, it is damn easy to set up a political party, and actually get elected to the national assembly. We have multi-party systems, not duo-party systems run by corporations. We have for the most part very clean and fair elections and guess what.. we can actually count here.
More parties does not mean more political freedom. India has ****loads of political parties. They are definitely not freer than most developed countries with much fewer parties. I would hardly argue the system in the U.S. is the most democratic, but it is more democratic than the system in place in pretty much every country of Europe. Parliamentary democracy is inherently less democratic.

So you are saying that because we have more personal freedoms that means we dont care about political freedoms that as I stated are superior to yours? Well lets test this theory of yours... who has the higher turn-out of voters... Europeans or the US when it comes to national elections? When was the last time 70+% of possible US voters turned out for a national election?
Turnout means very little in terms of a person's rights. In the U.S. our voter turnout was always around 90% in the 19th Century. We had many more restrictions on our liberties back then as opposed to today.
 

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Like I said, more hedonistic liberties is not a boon to democracy and is often allowed by anti-democratic governments to keep the masses docile. Have you read 1984 or Brave New World?
Yea and those two books have far more in common with modern day US than Europe lol.

More parties does not mean more political freedom. India has ****loads of political parties. They are definitely not freer than most developed countries with much fewer parties. I would hardly argue the system in the U.S. is the most democratic, but it is more democratic than the system in place in pretty much every country of Europe. Parliamentary democracy is inherently less democratic.
First off India, is the biggest democracy on the planet. And they get higher turn out than the US for the most part.

Secondly, what do you base your claim that the US is more "democratic" than European countries? Considering that it is near impossible to get a nation wide political party up and running because of the 2 big parties, then one has to question how democratic that is. Considering the gerrymandering there is in defining your political districts based on race and party colour is highly undemocratic. Considering that you have had elections decided by courts and not the electorate makes your system highly undemocratic. Considering you that you get voter participation at so low numbers, that makes it a highly undemocratic society to say the least.

And no, Europe aint perfect, but compared to the US.. most countries are miles ahead on the "democratic" scale.

Turnout means very little in terms of a person's rights. In the U.S. our voter turnout was always around 90% in the 19th Century. We had many more restrictions on our liberties back then as opposed to today.
in the 19th century, it was only white men of a certain age that could vote.. that something to be proud off? And it was YOU that claimed because we have more personal freedoms we dont care about our POLITICAL freedoms.. no mention of person's right.. so stop changing the subject..

I repeat again what is the average voter turnout in the US of all voters (not registered but all voters) in say the last 10 elections? It is pathetic!.. even the Greeks had more people in % turn out than the US. So you claim that our "hedonistic" freedoms are bad for political discourse, seems to be .. totally wrong. In fact I could much easier claim the total opposite.
 

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You are freer to engage in hedonistic activities, but that is not the same as political freedom. In fact encouraging and allowing hedonism is a great way to get people apathetic about political freedom. People simply do not have the liberties people in the U.S. have.
What liberties do you have in the US that you believe we don't enjoy here in Europe? You do know that Europe isn't a country, don't you? Could you be specific about which liberties are lacking in which countries? I may agree with you on a few.
 

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Of course, the second amendment seems to be the typical response of a euro. Those barbaric Yanks and their guns. Civilized euros know the people have no right to any means of self-defense, especially from their government that does not think people have a right to speak their mind on any issue.
Nope, i've always supported the second amendment under certain responsible frameworks. You have dodged the bullet, though. Apart from the second amendment, how are we any less free than any American?
 

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Yea and those two books have far more in common with modern day US than Europe lol.
The hell they do. I am thinking you haven't read either or you just twist or leave out the inconvenient parts.

First off India, is the biggest democracy on the planet.
They may be the biggest, but that does not mean they are more democratic.

And they get higher turn out than the US for the most part.
Like I said, that is quite irrelevant to the level of democracy in a country.

Secondly, what do you base your claim that the US is more "democratic" than European countries? Considering that it is near impossible to get a nation wide political party up and running because of the 2 big parties, then one has to question how democratic that is.
You question it because you, like most people in the West, have been brainwashed with the absurd notion that more parties is better for democracy. Like I said, if you look at India you will see they have way more political parties running and winning seats but their system is undemocratic and restrictive of political freedoms in countless ways. They are not the only country in that position either. Look at many third world parliamentary democracies and you will find they typically have a large number of parties running and winning seats. None of that translates into more democracy or more political freedom.

Political parties are actually antithetical to democracy and in most parliamentary democracies like those of Europe this is especially the case. After all, political parties first emerged in Europe as factions among the elite nobility.

Considering the gerrymandering there is in defining your political districts based on race and party colour is highly undemocratic.
In every political system those in power try to find ways to preserve or consolidate power. That system of gerrymandering occurs because the tools for manipulation of elections and consolidation of power that exist in Europe do not exist here in the U.S.

Considering that you have had elections decided by courts and not the electorate makes your system highly undemocratic.
Many countries in Europe allow their courts a lot more influence over elections. Certain parties are banned outright based on their politics or otherwise restricted by the courts. It's endorsed by the concept of militant democracy, which is itself an oxymoron.

Considering you that you get voter participation at so low numbers, that makes it a highly undemocratic society to say the least.
Like I said, turnout isn't everything in a democracy.

in the 19th century, it was only white men of a certain age that could vote.. that something to be proud off? And it was YOU that claimed because we have more personal freedoms we dont care about our POLITICAL freedoms.. no mention of person's right.. so stop changing the subject..
I am not talking about just the first half of the 19th Century but even after non-whites could vote. Nowhere did I say the high turnout was something to be proud of either. I was noting that it did not mean anything relevant to the level of democracy in the United States. By the same token high turnout in India does not mean it is more democratic than the U.S.

So you claim that our "hedonistic" freedoms are bad for political discourse, seems to be .. totally wrong. In fact I could much easier claim the total opposite.
I did not say that they are bad for political discourse, but that such freedom is often encouraged by the State as a way of keeping the masses docile and subservient. Getting you to love your slavery and eagerly vote again and again to preserve and increase your enslavement is a far more effective method of building a fascist society than the use of violence.

What liberties do you have in the US that you believe we don't enjoy here in Europe?
Free speech and by that I mean all forms of speech, not just the kind of speech people like. Freedom of religion in most of Europe is not respected. Freedom of assembly in areas like those areas of restriction against free speech. Political representation is far more limited and regulated than in the U.S. Now, you may point to a few states where any one of these things is not the case, but there is a disturbing consistency in Europe as it regards these subjects.

You do know that Europe isn't a country, don't you?
There was a time when the answer to the question is an obvious "duh, silly" but now it really isn't that simple. I suppose one could still say it isn't since parts of the continent are independent, but a substantial portion of European "countries" are no longer sovereign states, except in the way states here are sovereign.
 
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They may be the biggest, but that does not mean they are more democratic.
People vote freely for a party/person = Democracy.. and that is regardless if a country is a parliamentary democracy, republic or whatever.

Like I said, that is quite irrelevant to the level of democracy in a country.
And like I said no it is not. Turn-out is a very clear indicator of how the people perceive their democracy. Democracies where there is low turn-out, people dont think their vote matters and hence dont turn up to vote.

You question it because you, like most people in the West, have been brainwashed with the absurd notion that more parties is better for democracy. Like I said, if you look at India you will see they have way more political parties running and winning seats but their system is undemocratic and restrictive of political freedoms in countless ways. They are not the only country in that position either. Look at many third world parliamentary democracies and you will find they typically have a large number of parties running and winning seats. None of that translates into more democracy or more political freedom.
Yes and India have other issues than say Denmark or other well defined democracies with many parties. India have a caste system which impacts its political system big time. 3rd world parliamentary democracies have histories of instability and other issues. I am talking about democracies in Europe vs US, that are well defined and have had successful elections for many many decades.

In every political system those in power try to find ways to preserve or consolidate power. That system of gerrymandering occurs because the tools for manipulation of elections and consolidation of power that exist in Europe do not exist here in the U.S.
LOL what the hell are you smoking? The system of gerrymandering is ripe in the US.. look at Texas.. hell look at most states. You have whole districts designed to elect black people and people from certain parties. There is next to no gerrymandering in most European countries lol. There are set rules on how to make the political districts and they do NOT include favouring a political party or racial make up. We use things like geography and most important.. population density.

Many countries in Europe allow their courts a lot more influence over elections.
LOL okay show me. Give us examples. Show me where an election in Europe was decided by the court system.

Certain parties are banned outright based on their politics or otherwise restricted by the courts. It's endorsed by the concept of militant democracy, which is itself an oxymoron.
Yes, in Spain Batasuna is banned because they support ETA a terrorist organisation. That is the only one I can thinking off hand, do you know of any more? Considering we allow parties like the BNP then well..

Like I said, turnout isn't everything in a democracy.
Now it is "everything" instead of nothing? You changing your stance dude.

I am not talking about just the first half of the 19th Century but even after non-whites could vote.
yea, when was that.. oh yea the late 1960s when all black people got the right to vote for real. Or did you forget that dirty bit of history?

Nowhere did I say the high turnout was something to be proud of either. I was noting that it did not mean anything relevant to the level of democracy in the United States. By the same token high turnout in India does not mean it is more democratic than the U.S.
You cant compare India and the US and you know it. India has other issues that are very unique to India (caste system), but like it or not, on the basic democratic level of having a political system with parties and people voting for said parties and politician's, there is very little basic difference between India, the US or say Denmark. Only in India and Denmark they can count.

I did not say that they are bad for political discourse, but that such freedom is often encouraged by the State as a way of keeping the masses docile and subservient. Getting you to love your slavery and eagerly vote again and again to preserve and increase your enslavement is a far more effective method of building a fascist society than the use of violence.
And yes what you just said is a load of American right wing bs crap .. you sir are the one that has been brainwashed. Your comments have zero to do with the reality of the political situation in Europe anno 2010.
 

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Free speech and by that I mean all forms of speech, not just the kind of speech people like. Freedom of religion in most of Europe is not respected. Freedom of assembly in areas like those areas of restriction against free speech. Political representation is far more limited and regulated than in the U.S. Now, you may point to a few states where any one of these things is not the case, but there is a disturbing consistency in Europe as it regards these subjects.
A few big, sweeping statements there. Have you any evidence to back them up? Or even a few examples that have caused you to come to these conclusions? What is your direct experience of European political cultures btw?

There was a time when the answer to the question is an obvious "duh, silly" but now it really isn't that simple. I suppose one could still say it isn't since parts of the continent are independent, but a substantial portion of European "countries" are no longer sovereign states, except in the way states here are sovereign.
In what way are they not sovereign? As you can see in current events, a state such as France can completely ignore the opinions of the EU with impunity. To what extent do you believe a US state could ignore federal opinion in this way?
 

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At least in athiestic democracies your beliefs and political views are protected under the law regardless of your background. Something religious regimes have been unable to implement.
...maybe in other countries in Europe but, I thought Britain doesn't have a written constitution, and even have a state church. So....no...i don't get that impression.
 
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